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^pretty fair assessment, for this paragraph alone:
“Despite Gottfried’s four NCAA bids and two Sweet 16 appearances in six seasons, NC State had ample reason to fire him. The Wolfpack went 47-55 in league play during his tenure and failed to consistently play up to their talent level even in his best seasons, twice sneaking into the NCAA tournament as one of the last teams selected.”
Ending with this, though, not so much: “I wouldn’t touch that job. If making four NCAA Tournaments [in six years] gets you fired midseason [in your sixth year], it’s not a good job to take if you already have a good job.”
Another surface level assessment by the uninformed. Play some D and keep your rosters intact and that could have been 6 out of 6. I’m tired of “making the tournament” being the bellwether of a good season. Maybe it is for a mid-major who has to win the regular season and/or their conference championship, but not in the ACC when 6 to 8 teams should reasonably expect to get in.
I think the article is fair.
Like mentioned earlier – too much emphasis is placed on simply making the tournament. Making the tournament should happen roughly 75-80% of the time.
I think a fair expectation of an established program in the Acc of our “overall package” would be something like
Conference record 6-12 to 8-10 one year (and no dancing)
9-9 to 10-8 and bubble bid
11-7 to 12-6, bid, no bubble.
+12 conference win, top 4 ACC finish, top 5 NCAA seed.Gott’s problem was that he never really got to that fourth level.
In year 6, when it should have been obvious he was building something, he was having his worse season ever. Worse yet, there was no hope for the future.
Sendek came much closer to building something than Gott. The administration should him patience by allowing him a 6th year. The risk paid off in that Sendek made 5 consecutive tourneys and had a couple of solid seasons. However, his teams collapses made it very hard for fans to be optimistic about the future with him at the helm.
Personality and leadership are critical. I have always thought that under a different AD and Chancellor, things could have turned out differently. The marketplace has demonstrated that his coaching alone isn’t going to build much without tremendous advantages.
So, NC State just needs to find a coach who will demonstrate he is building something AND give fans some very special moments.
We haven’t had that since V….So, Yea, we get more and more frustrated.
I’m tired of “making the tournament” being the bellwether of a good season.
I agree, but that doesn’t change the fact that making the NCAAT is both the definition of a “good enough” season and the minimum expectation for most schools in the ACC.
Herb was not fired and was not going to be fired in 2006. However the prospects for the 06/07 season were bleak and it wasn’t clear then, nor now, what would happen if State didn’t make the NCAAT in 2007. People tend to forget that LF had built expectations for the 05/06 season when he said that State was going to be a lot better because of the players that other schools was losing. (Yes, he is that stupid and he really did say that.) But instead, State suffered a collapse of near-epic proportion and barely made the NCAAT in Herb’s last year. Herb jumped at the opportunity to move to another school and reset the countdown clock. (He must have been either surprised by the ASU firing or couldn’t find anywhere else to go.)
In general, ACC coaches are given a certain amount of time to build a program good enough to make the tournament. How long they are given and how often they have to make it obviously varies from school to school. But ACC coaches are routinely fired for not making the NCAAT. That doesn’t matter if you’re at State or any other school.
Side note: Off of the top of my head, Doh’s 3 years at UNC is one of the shortest ACC tenures that I remember.
From the yahoo article:
Dayton coach Archie Miller and Wichita State coach Gregg Marshall are obvious potential targets for the Wolfpack, but there’s no reason for either to leave their current gigs unless it’s for a top-tier job. Both are well-compensated and lead programs that are indisputably among the best in their respective leagues. As a result, they would be wise to follow Shaka Smart’s lead and wait for a chance to jump to one of the nation’s most coveted jobs, especially with the possibility of Indiana opening in the near future.
With a little thought, this doesn’t make sense. Several coaches have failed miserably at Indiana since Bobby Knight. If a coach can win enough at Indiana to keep their fans happy, why wouldn’t he be able to win enough at State to keep us happy?
From the outside, Marshall would seem to have the perfect job. He’s the king pin of his conference and is making more there than a lot of schools in power conferences pay. If he wants the prestige of an Indiana job, then there’s that if we wants his ego stroked. But the chances of failing at Indiana are substantially higher than those at Scary Wheat and the pay probably wouldn’t be much better.
He doesn’t need to be a “first-tier” coach, but at least establishes a program that players actually want to stay in until their junior and senior years, as opposed to running away screaming after their sophomore seasons. Look at what Mike Brey is doing, look at what McDermott is doing, can we have something like that? Why is it asking too much to have a coach capable of building a program that is regularly in the top 25 (instead of top 65)? You’ll find that pack fans are patient if the program is trending in the right direction. I guess we can’t have nice things. Given our history, I’d be content with an up-and-comer that isn’t a “pull lever in case of emergency” type of hire.
You’ll find that pack fans are patient if the program is trending in the right direction.
For a while. Eventually folks won’t be happy without some serious accomplishments because mprovement eventually stops. Where it stops is the key determinant in the satisfaction level of the fan base.
MrPlywood wrote:
I’m tired of “making the tournament” being the bellwether of a good season.
Absolutely, it is completely lazy metric to berate a fan base with. In my opinion the metric is easy:
NC State should be competitive every night against any team in the country! If MG had done that he would not be going anywhere. LR was light years from it (not even in swinging the bat territory), HS couldn’t do it (he went to the tournament some, but could not coach a team that was competitive everynight), SL couldn’t do it, and now MG has certainly shown he’s not capable of it.Until someone is hired that can coach a squad to be comptetive every night regardless of the opponent we must be patient and keep hiring. It is after all the basis of why you play the game. It was why V was successful at NC State.
This metric does not put any requirement on championships. I believe if it is met those will eventually come.
Yeah, some improvements are easier than others. Lots of guys can do Levels 1 and 2 (as chop outlines above). 3 and 4? That’s where one’s pay is truly earned. Or one’s pink slip.
You’ll find that pack fans are patient if the program is trending in the right direction.
For a while. Eventually folks won’t be happy without some serious accomplishments because mprovement eventually stops. Where it stops is the key determinant in the satisfaction level of the fan base.
If the program trends in the right direction over several years, the program is more immune to bad, down years. UVA was in the Elite Eight last year, and this is a down year for them, yet they have stayed in the top 25 for most if not all of the year. My point just being sustained incremental success, breed success. And you don’t end up with losing seasons, certainly not consecutive ones, just at worst .500 Acc record seasons. I think we would be satisfied with that sort of “trending in the right direction”, as I put it. But maybe that is asking too much, since what I described is only what elite programs experience : ) and we all know that cannot be.
Eventually, Wahoowa is gonna get that “Why Can’t We Get to the Final Four/Is This Ralph Sampson Curse All Over Again??” fever, but agreed, Bennett has progressed far enough – and critically – WON AN ACC TITLE – that his rebuilding years are still quite good.
I bet he still embarrasses us on Saturday.
My point just being sustained incremental success, breed success.
See Sendek, Herb for a counterpoint. Plenty of improvement, not enough accomplishments. And 06/07 looked to be a stinker even if Herb stayed.
My point just being sustained incremental success, breed success.
See Sendek, Herb for a counterpoint. Plenty of improvement, not enough accomplishments. And 06/07 looked to be a stinker even if Herb stayed.
Maybe I need to be even more specific. I like BJD’s “win a conference championship as a demonstration of success” to placate the fanbase/ enjoy some hearty goodwill from them.
I think one thing the article ignores is the local ties aspect. Archie was our point guard, met his to-be wife at State. Marshall is from SC and has ties elsewhere in the South. This is not at the level of Roy’s linkage to Dean Smith, but its what makes the scenario “seem” possible for either. I agree that the Indiana comment is puzzling; that job is more like NC State’s than it is like Ohio State’s.
So, while we’re mentioning names of possible candidates…what about Kevin Keatts and UNC-W. He inherited a mess there and has turned there program around in, what?, 4 years? He is very personable with the students on campus, and the fan base loves him. I wonder what he could do with us, our fans supporting him, and much better recruiting base…
I like BJD’s “win a conference championship as a demonstration of success”
Someone may have come up with it first, but BJD has been fairly consistent with what it takes to be considered a success at NC State. An average year should be a NCAAT bid. Poor year is the NIT and can be accepted from time to time. But a coach absolutely must have some peaks along the way – ACC regular season champions, ACCT champions, or Final Four.
Maybe I should say, “preferably a Final Four”. Look up Gene Keady’s career stats some time. I don’t want his doppelganger at State.
Just throwing out a potential C-list candidate. Dan Muller, HC at Illinois State earning base salary $400k. Defensive coach (16th adjusted defense according to Kenpom). He’s young, 41, been a HC for four years and has Illinois State turned around sitting at 15-1 in MVC and 23-5 overall this season. No ties to NC State that I know of, but we could surely get him to come if his current salary info I have is accurate.
I called it “the V standard” – although technically V had 2 ACC titles AND 1 regular season crown – tis a bigger pool now (plus the national championship), it is:
Over 10 seasons:
7 NCAA bids
3 Sweet 16s
1 Final Four
1 ACC title (regular season or tourney)If you do that, I’m generally gonna be happy.
I am old and I dont understand
‘If NCSU does hire Libetards Stevie Kerr or Greggy Poppovich, then there WILL, I suspect, be a small (Numbers…but MEGA in terms of $$’s Donated to the WPC and NCSU Athletics) uprising. ‘
Stephen Douglas “Steve” Kerr is an American former professional basketball player and the current head coach of the Golden State Warriors. no chance in #&!! of hiring him
Gregg Charles Popovich is an American basketball coach who is currently the head coach of the San Antonio Spurs of the National Basketball Association. no chance in #&!! of hiring him
I dont understand the references to hiring these guys
It’s Roo’s way of trying to make a thread political.
Just throwing out a potential C-list candidate. Dan Muller, HC at Illinois State earning base salary $400k.
He’s a Stallings protege. Played for Stallings at Illinois State and served as an assistant to Stallings at Vandy for 12 years. Good young coach.
What’s with the whiny complaining about Roo? He’s always posted that way while at the same time still contributing.. who cares? Get to your safe space or keep on scrolling.
Heck, Boeheim and Roy have missed a tourney or two – just show me you can put really good teams on the floor – more than one season.
I do think if you haven’t won a conference title in 10 years – it is not unreasonable to think you won’t ever win one. (And here, history proved that just maybe we weren’t crazy to think we could do better than Sendek, who in 10 years @ Arizona state didn’t win a title there either before he was fired. Yet, the sun devils are never criticized for their lack of patience with him
What’s with the whiny complaining about Roo? He’s always posted that way while at the same time still contributing.. who cares? Get to your safe space or keep on scrolling.
Just mansplaining. It’s alright.
What’s with the whiny complaining about Roo? He’s always posted that way while at the same time still contributing.. who cares? Get to your safe space or keep on scrolling.
Just mansplaining. It’s alright.
Mansplaining, huh? How metrosexual of you. Well it comes off as whiney offended little bitch’splainin
What’s with the whiny complaining about Roo? He’s always posted that way while at the same time still contributing.. who cares? Get to your safe space or keep on scrolling.
It’s like your drunk Uncle who shows up at the family gathering having already had a few and with a flask in the pocket. They contribute but eventually it gets old, particularly when they show up that way for a serious event.
On topic, if a coach produced V like results, we wouldn’t just “generally be happy.” We’d build a statue, hang his name in the rafters and Yow would probably name the court after him.
I do agree though that “making the NCAA tournament” is a fairly low bar for an ACC school. Heck, 3/5 of the league is going to do it this year. It’s like the “two Sweet 16s in 5 years” argument. Guess what? I checked and 26 schools had done it and we were the one with the LEAST continuous success over that period. I’d much rather be a regular season top 25 stalwart. Success breeds success, recruiting gets easier, players stay, pipelines get developed and eventually one will break through and win something meaningful (ACC regular season or tournament championship, Final Four or National Title).
It’s like your drunk Uncle who shows up at the family gathering having already had a few and with a flask in the pocket. They contribute but eventually it gets old, particularly when they show up that way for a serious event.
lmfao
well then let’s go the other way and say if you’re so offended by a forum post you’re like the little whiny b!tch college student who can’t take it and needs a coloring book to get through life.
Hope you overcome being offended by truth on the internet.
So our choices are read harebrained wing nut political drivel and stfu, or post our own and turn every thread into a sh!t show, or ask for it to be kept to a minimum and be considered a, “little whiny b!tch college student who can’t take it and needs a coloring book to get through life.”
Does that sum it up?
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