How Long is Long Enough? Opinions Are All Over The Place…

badgeHow long should a team give a coach to turn a program around?

It’s an interesting question, and one that seems to be on the lips of many an NC State fan after the past couple of basketball seasons.  Me, I am not saying one way or the other that State should “do something” about head coach Sidney Lowe, as I think that will be decided by next year’s results.  I think that’s only fair, to let a coach build his own team according to his designs.  But I do think that next year will be the proverbial fish-or-cut-bait season for Lowe, and that his tenure will be decided about this time of year in 2010.  One thing is for sure — other schools are not waiting that long to come to a conclusion about their own coaches.

Opinions are of course all over the NC State map on this question, with some saying fire Lowe now, others saying fire Lowe, Fowler and Chancellor Oblinger now, all the way to folks who think Lowe should get a raise and a contract extension.  I guess with a family as large as Wolfpack Nation, a range of opinions that wide is to be expected.

Here’s something I found today that I think is interesting.  I’m guessing that this was written by one of our younger fans, someone who probably never witnessed the  days of NC State being highly competitive in ACC basketball.  It’s a comment I found about Kentucky potentially firing head coach Billy Gillespie after the Willdcats have underperformed for the past two seasons under his guidance.

“Kentucky is not NC State. They have won 3 SEC championships since 2000 and 7 more during the ’90s. How many ACC championships did we win during that time span? The rebuilding job is not the same so they can’t be held to the same standard, imo.”

On the surface, this is true — the UK program’s heritage, both recent and historical is far deeper than NC State’s.  Facts are facts.

But some other facts jump out that are equally interesting:

  • “Along the way Gillispie grew more publicly critical of his players, often foisting the blame onto their shoulders.”
  • “Playing time for some players rose and fell seemingly on a whim.”
  • And most damning, the Wildcats record was 22-13 with only a .500 conference record in the sub-par SEC and no NCAA bid for a team that considers these bids to be a birthright.

If the first two don’t sound familiar, they should. Sounds like a movie we just saw…I forget the name, but I think it was a disaster movie.

More to the point, however, let’s take a look at how long it can take a good coach to turn a marginal team around.

  • Sean Miller is in his fifth season at Xavier  and has made the NCAA four of those years, with an Elite 8 and a  Sweet 16 to his credit the past two years.
  • Mike Anderson is in his third season at Missouri and is going to the Elite 8, after defeating #1 seed Memphis last night.  Keep in mind that Mizzou was on three years NCAA probation until 2007.
  • Travis Ford took Oklahoma State to the NCAA second round in his first season.

In other words, it doesn’t take twenty years, ten years or even five years to turn the ship on a major D1 program.  And if you don’t think NC State is a major D1 program, have you noticed the size of the University and the investment it has made in its basketball facilities?  Indeed, NC State may not be Kentucky, but then again, neither is Mizzou, Xavier or a host of other schools.  They turned around quickly and to say that NC State cannot do so it utterly ridiculous.

Schools like Kentucky and UNC don’t wait long to fold losing hands — we saw that with Mat Doherty and we are seeing that with Billy Gillespie now.  Gillespie will probably be shown the blue door in the next few days (my suspicion is during the Final Four. UPDATE: It’s official)  People may ask, what is Kentucky waiting on?  I would guess buyout considerations and maybe ensuring that they have someone to step in immediately.  Schools like UK don’t tend towards coaching searches conducted in secret bunkers on Kerr Lake in a bass boat where there is spotty cellphone coverage.  Most importantly, schools like Kentucky DO take decisive steps to protect their perceived place in the college basketball world and there, WTNY doesn’t cut it.  Maybe that’s why a Kentucky is a Kentucky?

At the end of the day, I think that the author of that comment is drinking Fowler-flavor Kool-Aid.  And I am certain it doesn’t take five or ten years to turn around a mediocre and underperforming hoops program.

09-10 Basketball NCS Basketball Quotes of Note Sidney Lowe

184 Responses to How Long is Long Enough? Opinions Are All Over The Place…

  1. McPete 03/27/2009 at 3:18 PM #

    “It will be decided by a handful of people in conjuction with LF”

    If Lee Fowler is around to conduct the next coaching search, then I will be the one losing 20 lbs. this time. I would seriously consider giving up entirely on nc state basketball if that happened. i would still follow all of our other sports, and root for friggin Louisville basketball.

  2. buttPACKer 03/27/2009 at 3:22 PM #

    I would LOVE to have a “Carolina”-esque Athletic Department. They are one of the most successful Departments in the country, and you can’t argue with that. UCLA and maybe Virginia. . . I wouldn’t mind emulating either of those, either.

  3. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 3:26 PM #

    “Take a look at Alabama football.

    Kentucky hoops.

    The Chicago Bears.

    Hell, even Carolina fans were calling Roy an idiot for not calling timeouts in the Final Four last year.”

    1. Alabama has EARNED the right to complain about loses…and the name and tradition alone gets them recruits.

    2. See above.

    3. It takes FOREVER for Chicago bear fans to turn against their coaches.

    4. This is why they are whiny Carolina fans and why we should be better than them. I read an article written in the student paper after Roy’s first season, the headline asked “Is Roy Really That good?” We should never aspire to be like them….EVER!

    You miss the point: EVERY fan base, no matter how storied the program, no matter how successful the coach, has a cadre of fans who bitch about the coaching. We are NO different. And yes, there are Bama fans bitching about the SEC Title game and wondering aloud if Nick Saban is right for their program. Go figure. — Alpha

  4. Noah 03/27/2009 at 3:26 PM #

    My argument for keeping him is that we don’t have a replacement…that’s stupid? Don’t be a moron.

    Yes, I’m quite sure that if we fire Lowe the position will just be empty. We’ll have 12 players and no coaches. NO ONE would ever want a $1 million salary and a head coaching job in the ACC.

    Well, Lee Fowler IS a basketball coach (end sarcasm)

  5. Wulfpack 03/27/2009 at 3:27 PM #

    What in the world is wrong with wanting a guy like Jeff Capel as our coach?

    Won at VCU. Check.

    Winning huge at OU. Check.
    Entirely more qualified than Sid at the young age of 33 or whatever he is. Check.

  6. buttPACKer 03/27/2009 at 3:27 PM #

    ^”One thing I have learned from Sid is he loved coaching in the NBA. So if Sid doesn’t look worried about his future it is because he is not, he will not have a problem finding a job.”

    that’s nice. . . It doesn’t make me want him fired any less, however.

  7. buttPACKer 03/27/2009 at 3:30 PM #

    ^”We should never aspire to be like them….EVER!”

    Yeah, we wouldn’t want to win or anything silly like that. . .

  8. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 3:30 PM #

    @ Wulfpack

    Are you talking to me? I laughed at Jason Capel as an option…I would take Jeff in a second.

  9. Dr. BadgerPack 03/27/2009 at 3:30 PM #

    “Walt Hriniak was regarded as one of the greatest hitting coaches of all time. And was a lifetime .227 hitter.”

    And continuing even further… Hriniak built a healthy portion of that reputation making one player- Frank Thomas, if memory serves.

    Which begs the question; do you want a coach who makes players, or a coach who can recruit well enough to make himself look good? The coach who can do both at an elite level is hard to come by.

  10. Noah 03/27/2009 at 3:35 PM #

    I hope that will equal more success in the future if not my feeling is Sid himself will step aside.

    Success, huh?

    Three years of being in the bottom of the league and this guy’s talking about “success.”

    We should just be happy being sort of competitive with ECU.

  11. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 3:35 PM #

    “Yeah, we wouldn’t want to win or anything silly like that. . .”

    So now winning and Carolina are synonymous? Wow.

  12. Noah 03/27/2009 at 3:39 PM #

    And continuing even further… Hriniak built a healthy portion of that reputation making one player- Frank Thomas, if memory serves.

    No, he was the Red Sox hitting coach forever. He was basically doing the hitting instruction even before Johnny Pesky officially stepped down.

    Dewey Evans was probably his first big success story.

    Jim Rice was the Red Sox hitting instructor back a few years ago. His method was to say, “See that white thing coming at you? Swing at it with this wooden stick and hit it way over there.”

  13. Wulfpack 03/27/2009 at 3:39 PM #

    My bad sorry about that Thinkpack.

  14. Alpha Wolf 03/27/2009 at 3:39 PM #

    ^ Yes, they have a fairly decent basketball program. You should check it out sometime. 🙂

    Seriously, can you seriously debate that the perception of UNC hoops is anything but equal to winning? That’s on a local, regional or national basis.

  15. Noah 03/27/2009 at 3:45 PM #

    You miss the point: EVERY fan base, no matter how storied the program, no matter how successful the coach, has a cadre of fans who bitch about the coaching.

    Yeah, except I wasn’t one of the ones bitching about MOC or Chuck Amato or Herb Sendek. And I certainly never complained about Valvano’s coaching (it was his refusal to give up the million side gigs that made me crazy).

    I supported the firing of Amato AFTER everything went down and I found out how erratic his behavior had gotten. I was fine with Sendek leaving because I thought it was a good opportunity for both parties, but I’ve said all along I thought he was a good coach (not a great one). And MOC didn’t lose me until the 10-6 Carolina game.

    Have I ever said a negative word about Dick Sheridan or Tom O’Brien? Hell, I’ve said a million times that I thought Sheridan was one of the best football minds the ACC has ever seen. I’ve said about 999,999 times that I thought Robbie Caldwell was one of the best OL coaches in the country and I was a big fan of Joe Pate and Buddy Green.

    There’ve been plenty of people bitching about Mike Archer and Dana Bible. Ever seen me complain about them?

    I bitch about the really SHITTY coaches.

  16. Noah 03/27/2009 at 3:47 PM #

    Seriously, can you seriously debate that the perception of UNC hoops is anything but equal to winning? That’s on a local, regional or national basis.

    I would like to point out that as a Red Sox fan, I’m very capable of explaining to you how the Yankees are an organization of losers. 😉

    I’ve got flowcharts and everything.

  17. Dr. BadgerPack 03/27/2009 at 3:48 PM #

    Noah, I forgot about the years with Boston. He did go to the WhiteSox in 1989 though; Thomas loves him to death.

    The original question I asked is still a good one though? If you could pick one, teacher or recruiter? When thinking about it, it is a surprisingly difficult question to answer.

  18. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 3:49 PM #

    “Yes, I’m quite sure that if we fire Lowe the position will just be empty. We’ll have 12 players and no coaches. NO ONE would ever want a $1 million salary and a head coaching job in the ACC.”

    Isn’t that the thinking that got us into this mess?

  19. Alpha Wolf 03/27/2009 at 3:50 PM #

    Noah,

    that quote is mine, but I wasn’t pointing you out specifically. I was pointing out instead that there are no fanbases that are immune to turning on struggling coaches.

    I’ve said about 999,999 times that I thought Robbie Caldwell was one of the best OL coaches in the country and I was a big fan of Joe Pate and Buddy Green.

    Amen. Caldwell could put together a great OL with stick figures and bubble gum. Back in the depths of the old RAWFS archives you will find me mentioning that Amato should have gotten him back on staff in Raleigh.

  20. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 3:59 PM #

    @ Noah

    As a matter of fact…why don’t you throw your hat into the circle.

  21. BAC79 03/27/2009 at 4:09 PM #

    How long do you give a coach? It depends on the coach and the obvious problems he is having.

    A lot of us have pointed out obvious deficiencies in Sid’s first three years of coaching. Lack of a good defense, poor fundamentals (i.e. not blocking out, lazy passes, dribbling the ball off your foot etc.,) poor rotations, apparently poor player management (i.e. player plays well then doesn’t see the court for 6 or more games); not taking responsibility for the product on the floor (I may have missed it but I do not remember Sid saying any problems were his fault and he needed to fix them) the complete meltdown in the second half of season two, apparent inability to bring in Hickson and make him fit in with the rest of the team etc, etc.

    Add to this a question that has been running through my brain; Have we had anyone in the athletic department conduct a serious review of the BB program at the end of each year and set goals for the following year?

    I would agree that Sid has made improvements but improving over last year is like saying we repaired one hole in the Titanic and we kept it afloat for 6 more hours before it sank. Last year is not much of a benchmark to make comparisons showing improvement.

    If it were up to me and of course its not, I would let the experiment end here and move on. Unfortunately, as we all know, we do not have a competent AD to lead the search now, next year or ever.

  22. Texpack 03/27/2009 at 4:45 PM #

    After Case left we have been behind Carolina. I will agree with that. Throughout the 60’s, 70’s, & 80’s we were a better program than Duke. V was 11-7 against K. NC State should almost always have a better basketball team than FSU, Miami, Clemson, UVa, & GT. Other than the Coach K era, which luckily for him happened during the same time as the castration of our athletic department, we were typically better than Duke. Hell, before Coach K the two winningest coaches in Duke history (VB & BW) were State grads! The idea that we can’t compete with Duke is just crap.

  23. BAC79 03/27/2009 at 4:49 PM #

    The only reason we cannot compete against Carolina and Duke athletically and academically is because we have a Chancellor, BOT, and AD who don’t have the balls to do what is necessary to be NUMBER ONE.

  24. BSIE80 03/27/2009 at 4:58 PM #

    Every one can be replaced with someone that can do the job better. Think about your job. Is there someone out their that can replace you and do a better job? If you say no, you are fooling yourself.

    If you are a business owner or mangager, do you go and recruit someone to replace an employee before you fire them?
    I have seen this in industry, and feel that this is underhanded. In the end, this decision and result never works. It may fill the gap in the short term but long term it creates an environment of lack of trust/integrity, etc.
    If NCSU were to do something like this, I would have more of a problem with supporting them than supporting a team that never wins another championship.
    What most of you are posting shows me that you no zip about how to run a professional organization.
    Of course, I am an idealist, so integrity and professionalism is more important to me than underhanded dirty play, greed, etc.

    KU is making this move because BG is a dick. They are doing this because he is a dick.

    Sid is not a dick. He has character. We are not in acacemic problems, recruiting problems, he is not getting drunk and f***g cheerleaders, etc.

    So how much time does he need to be respectable??
    He has a 5 or 6 year contract? I think we honor this. If he does an exceptional job next year (to me 8-8 in conference, nit invite) we extend his contract. If we fall short, then we give him another year before we make this decision….

  25. BAC79 03/27/2009 at 5:03 PM #

    Our illustrious AD gave him a contract extension early on which is totally befuddling to me.The NIT is not acceptable; NCAAT or the experiment is over. Your standards are way too low especially for someone who is being paid 1 mil per year which I am sure is many more times what you and I make combined.

    Of course someone could do my job better at 1 mil per year, probably yours too.

Leave a Reply