How Long is Long Enough? Opinions Are All Over The Place…

badgeHow long should a team give a coach to turn a program around?

It’s an interesting question, and one that seems to be on the lips of many an NC State fan after the past couple of basketball seasons.  Me, I am not saying one way or the other that State should “do something” about head coach Sidney Lowe, as I think that will be decided by next year’s results.  I think that’s only fair, to let a coach build his own team according to his designs.  But I do think that next year will be the proverbial fish-or-cut-bait season for Lowe, and that his tenure will be decided about this time of year in 2010.  One thing is for sure — other schools are not waiting that long to come to a conclusion about their own coaches.

Opinions are of course all over the NC State map on this question, with some saying fire Lowe now, others saying fire Lowe, Fowler and Chancellor Oblinger now, all the way to folks who think Lowe should get a raise and a contract extension.  I guess with a family as large as Wolfpack Nation, a range of opinions that wide is to be expected.

Here’s something I found today that I think is interesting.  I’m guessing that this was written by one of our younger fans, someone who probably never witnessed the  days of NC State being highly competitive in ACC basketball.  It’s a comment I found about Kentucky potentially firing head coach Billy Gillespie after the Willdcats have underperformed for the past two seasons under his guidance.

“Kentucky is not NC State. They have won 3 SEC championships since 2000 and 7 more during the ’90s. How many ACC championships did we win during that time span? The rebuilding job is not the same so they can’t be held to the same standard, imo.”

On the surface, this is true — the UK program’s heritage, both recent and historical is far deeper than NC State’s.  Facts are facts.

But some other facts jump out that are equally interesting:

  • “Along the way Gillispie grew more publicly critical of his players, often foisting the blame onto their shoulders.”
  • “Playing time for some players rose and fell seemingly on a whim.”
  • And most damning, the Wildcats record was 22-13 with only a .500 conference record in the sub-par SEC and no NCAA bid for a team that considers these bids to be a birthright.

If the first two don’t sound familiar, they should. Sounds like a movie we just saw…I forget the name, but I think it was a disaster movie.

More to the point, however, let’s take a look at how long it can take a good coach to turn a marginal team around.

  • Sean Miller is in his fifth season at Xavier  and has made the NCAA four of those years, with an Elite 8 and a  Sweet 16 to his credit the past two years.
  • Mike Anderson is in his third season at Missouri and is going to the Elite 8, after defeating #1 seed Memphis last night.  Keep in mind that Mizzou was on three years NCAA probation until 2007.
  • Travis Ford took Oklahoma State to the NCAA second round in his first season.

In other words, it doesn’t take twenty years, ten years or even five years to turn the ship on a major D1 program.  And if you don’t think NC State is a major D1 program, have you noticed the size of the University and the investment it has made in its basketball facilities?  Indeed, NC State may not be Kentucky, but then again, neither is Mizzou, Xavier or a host of other schools.  They turned around quickly and to say that NC State cannot do so it utterly ridiculous.

Schools like Kentucky and UNC don’t wait long to fold losing hands — we saw that with Mat Doherty and we are seeing that with Billy Gillespie now.  Gillespie will probably be shown the blue door in the next few days (my suspicion is during the Final Four. UPDATE: It’s official)  People may ask, what is Kentucky waiting on?  I would guess buyout considerations and maybe ensuring that they have someone to step in immediately.  Schools like UK don’t tend towards coaching searches conducted in secret bunkers on Kerr Lake in a bass boat where there is spotty cellphone coverage.  Most importantly, schools like Kentucky DO take decisive steps to protect their perceived place in the college basketball world and there, WTNY doesn’t cut it.  Maybe that’s why a Kentucky is a Kentucky?

At the end of the day, I think that the author of that comment is drinking Fowler-flavor Kool-Aid.  And I am certain it doesn’t take five or ten years to turn around a mediocre and underperforming hoops program.

09-10 Basketball NCS Basketball Quotes of Note Sidney Lowe

184 Responses to How Long is Long Enough? Opinions Are All Over The Place…

  1. Afterglow 03/27/2009 at 1:35 PM #

    I really don’t think it’s Miller time. I think if that were the case, there would be rumblings in Raleigh of some sort right about now. One can dream I guess.

    I agree with Noah’s earlier post, that all time frames are case by case. And as I also hope things trend more positively with Lowe I feel less certain that this situation will turn for the better. There are just certain aspects of personalities that don’t change unless some life changing experience rocks their world. Not being able to take responsibility for things is a character flaw-and I don’t think you can change that.

  2. PackWolf7 03/27/2009 at 1:40 PM #

    We will never compete with the [Dukes] and [UNCs]

    Especially as long as we believe it. Competing with THEM would indeed be a ten year job, but I believe you can never start a monumental task by saying it cannot be done. That’s called failing before you even try.

    Alph….I have to admire your fight, but these are two model programs. To reach their level is like me trying to bench press 800 lbs. There are certain things that you have to aspire to, but only things that are attainable. I guess my point is that ok, there are the elites, and then there are the rest of the cream. Most Pack fans I think would welcome the latter category and maybe eek out a win every now and then against the elites. But you never know….10 years from now? Nah.

  3. wolfmans brother. 03/27/2009 at 1:47 PM #

    “I am realizing even more that life with Sendek was not that bad after all. He did compete with those teams when with the Pack, and he was probably a recruit away from cracking the sweet 16 this year with AS. Not too shabby. To a large extent, the State fan base brought the current situation on itself by running Herb off. It will be years before the program can get back to competing in the ACC, other than Dook and the Holes. We can never expect to rise to their level. That is just a fact of life.”

    This single paragraph typifies everything that is wrong with “joe state fan.” Utterly unbelievable. One would have to try very hard to squeeze more douchebaggery into 7 sentences.

  4. howlie 03/27/2009 at 1:49 PM #

    So many frustrations….

    1) the SenDick move happened so late in the recruiting season, and then the search for the new head coach took forever; but ‘Coach Fowler’ assured the Wolfpack Nation he was retaining our three commitments…

    2) the search took forever–at national embarrasment–but, the more horrific action was 2 of the 3 Top 75 recruits going elsewhere.

    3) Even if the new coach were Saint John Wooden, every other player had committed to a school that late in the game. We LITERALLY began our first recruiting class with the new coach after EVERY UNIVERSITY IN AMERICA had gotten their class. Dregs in class 1 and foretaste of dregs for Class #2, because many top juniors had already begun to make their decisions by that point in time. Fowlup affected TWO recruiting classes… not just one.

    4) Just plain bad karma. Has any school in NCAA history had more season-ending injuries to their basketball team among the combined SenDick/Lowe era? I bet not…

  5. Packman02 03/27/2009 at 1:53 PM #

    http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4021232

    Billy G out officially … sit back and watch the dominos fall…

  6. choppack1 03/27/2009 at 1:53 PM #

    Afterglow – it’s also worth noting that a lot of great players make shitty coaches.

    Sidney was one of the great Point Guards in ACC history. His eyes and brain saw and processed defenses, angles, and information much better than the average basketball player. Most will tell you that someone like this probably can’t relate to a kid who doesn’t see these things.

    He was probably one of those guys who only had to be told things once. He probably didn’t need a lot of teaching or motivation.

    Magic Johnson was the greatest PG in NBA history – how was he as a coach??

  7. PackWolf7 03/27/2009 at 1:55 PM #

    Wolfman’s brother………explain, moron, what a “joe state fan” is, if you can. You take swipes, and then you hide.

  8. turnoffthetv 03/27/2009 at 1:58 PM #

    “We will never compete with the Dooks and Holes”

    And this will be true as long as Lowe is here. Unless UNC rehires Matt DOH and DOOK rehires wtf was his name ? Pete Gaudet?

  9. wolfmans brother. 03/27/2009 at 1:59 PM #

    Billy G got the boot.

  10. pakfanistan 03/27/2009 at 2:03 PM #

    I’d argue that making such mistakes is a sign that you’ve made an enormous error in judgement when you hired this guy.

    Rite, we know. But he’s already hired, so, now what?

  11. Astral Rain 03/27/2009 at 2:03 PM #

    I think, the situation Sid stepped into was about as toxic as the situation Herb started out with, and was the reason Herb left. He knew he had little in the cupboard, and the heat was on, so he went to the desert where it’s cooler.

    As such, the first 2 years Sid gets a pass from me.

    This year, I saw some signs of improvement- though slow and frustrating.

    Next year, no free pass- improvement, and measureable improvement, needs to happen, or we need to try something else. NCAA bubble is good enough for next year as a minimal goal for me.

    BTW the goal is winning to me- whether you do it through recruiting, coaching, cheating that you get away with, or all of the above.

  12. turnoffthetv 03/27/2009 at 2:03 PM #

    “I am realizing even more that life with Sendek was not that bad after all.”

    Bull$h**!!! I dont miss watching PAINT DRY one damn bit! But I guess if you are saying that he is a better coach than Lowe, I’d have to agree. But he can stay his A$$ put in the “oasis he has found in the desert.”

  13. JasonP 03/27/2009 at 2:05 PM #

    Packwolf 7, he shouldn’t have to explain it. Your post defines it to a ‘T’

  14. LRM 03/27/2009 at 2:09 PM #

    “I am realizing even more that life with Sendek was not that bad after all. He did compete with those teams when with the Pack…”

    You can’t say ridiculous made-up shit like that and then not get called out on it.

    You’re implying “those” teams are Carolina and Duke. Well, Sendek was 2-14 (.125) after three seasons and 8-38 (.211) over 11 seasons against them, while Sid is 2-10 (.167) against them after three seasons (pretty abysmal). Even when we finished outright second in 2003-04 we had three losses to Duke and Carolina.

  15. turnoffthetv 03/27/2009 at 2:11 PM #

    Jason P -“Packwolf 7, he shouldn’t have to explain it. Your post defines it to a ‘T’”

    Now that’s funny right there I don’t care who you are!

  16. hoop 03/27/2009 at 2:11 PM #

    I hate to say it but just this year I’ve finally come to the full realization that we are a second rate program. That’s just the way it is. Nobody talks about the NC State program except us. Nobody fears us. The kid who wrote that is right. That’s not to say it can’t change, or it won’t, but it’s the way things are right now and have been for a long time, for at least as long as most of the kids play ball now can remember. They see our highlights and it’s guys wearing short shorts. Furthermore, the ‘mystique’ of NC State is so far removed that even coaches don’t hold NC State in high esteem anymore. We got used and abused during the last coaching search and we look like a bunch of spoiled idiots to everybody. I hate to be all negative but that’s the way I see it.

  17. Afterglow 03/27/2009 at 2:13 PM #

    choppack1-Yeah, I would agree that most that are naturally great at something have a hard time teaching someone else how to be great. I’m not the greatest swimmer but I actually did pretty well at teaching others how to do it. I never dove in my life but actually did pretty well looking at tape and teaching others how to dive better than I ever could have.

    Although you do have those acceptions.

  18. Noah 03/27/2009 at 2:13 PM #

    Rite, we know. But he’s already hired, so, now what?

    Fire him and move on to the next guy. This is not a binary situation. It’s not Sendek OR Lowe.

    And regarding great players making horrible coaches, it’s worth noting that Walt Hriniak was regarded as one of the greatest hitting coaches of all time. And was a lifetime .227 hitter.

  19. PackWolf7 03/27/2009 at 2:14 PM #

    Jason P…then explain it, big guy. What makes your opinions better than the next guy??

    The personal insult was edited out of this post.

  20. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 2:16 PM #

    Second rate? Of course we are second rate! First rate programs have History…first rate programs have high profile coaches. There are like 10 “First Rate” programs in the country. We don’t have to be “First Rate”, but we need to compete with them. Having a coach revolving door will not do it.

  21. Thinkpack17 03/27/2009 at 2:17 PM #

    @Noah

    Who is the next guy?

  22. Afterglow 03/27/2009 at 2:20 PM #

    Thinkpack17-“Who would want to come to a school with fans like this?”

    So are fans a product of the program or is the program a product of the fan? I would say that it is not the latter and that any intelligent coach is going to see that. I think there’s an argument for a coach coming here because of a great fan base but I seriously doubt any coach is reading these blogs and if they are, the probably should be doing something other than coaching.

  23. PackWolf7 03/27/2009 at 2:22 PM #

    LRM…No, not implying Duke or UNC…implying the rest of the ACC. Read my post.

  24. LRM 03/27/2009 at 2:22 PM #

    There’s a great line at the end of the opening gambit of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (the last movie in the series, regardless of what anyone else thinks happened 20 years later). Anyway, after a lot of effort, the young Indiana Jones had failed to get the Cross of Coronado from treasure hunters, and at the end, the guy that he’d gone up against told him “You lost today kid, but that doesn’t mean you have to like it.” The old cliche, You can lose a battle and still win the war. Some years later he finally got that artifact.

    My point: Yes, we’re a second-rate program — tough to argue otherwise. But that doesn’t mean we have to like it.

    EXACTLY.

  25. JasonP 03/27/2009 at 2:24 PM #

    Packwolf, I’m just thankful I don’t know any State fans like you.
    Actually, my guess is that you’re:
    A. A UNC WalMart Fan troll
    B. Lee Fowler
    C. Lee Fowler employee
    D. A & C

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