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And do some research on V and Sloan..
When Gott wins a national title, heck any title, then we will stop arguing why he cannot win anything.
How does Gott overcome these kids leaving so were not left with a 7 man rotation? Do you have faith they stay or over recruit and turn some guys away at the last second? Seems to me it’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario for Gott.
Wood, Vandy, Johnson, Howell, Dez, Turner and CJ Williams have stayed through their senior season.
Leaving before Leslie, Brown, Purvis, deThaey, Lewis, Washington, Lacey, Tyler Harris, Jaqawn Raymond, Painter.So 7 have stayed until their eligibility is used up and 10 left before (and that’s leaving off Warren as he was actually drafted and the player who left when Gott was announced as the coach). I don’t how you can possibly spin those numbers into anything good. As I said Gott has his strengths (players play hard, teams improve during the year, recruits hard, etc) but player retention is NOT one of his strengths. I have no idea why the Gott supporters have such a hard time admitting he has faults. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
How does Gott overcome these kids leaving so were not left with a 7 man rotation? Do you have faith they stay or over recruit and turn some guys away at the last second? Seems to me it’s a damned if you do damned if you don’t scenario for Gott.
#onlyncsuproblem
Ask the wrong questions, get the wrong answers. Lots of transfers, no doubt. To me, a transfer down or a transfer up isn’t really the same as a lateral transfer so citing transfer rates is a bit misleading. Ultimately, I don’t care how many transfers you have unless you don’t adequately plan and account for early exits, injuries, tranfers etc. If not, then it’s a problem. Up to this year, he did a pretty good job managing that situation.
But to me, part of recruiting isn’t just getting the best players, which seems to be Gott’s approach. Part of recruiting in basketball (unless you’re one of the few programs where you just pick from what’s considered the top talent) is accounting for the above and incorporating role players, being honest with them from the start, and developing them. They may not play much early, unless one of the above occurs, but they’ll have the right to earn a spot on the floor and/or can work themselves into a bigger role later. This, of course, requires hardwork on the individual’s part but also teaching and player development, and possibly a scheme that best incorporates that talent.I think this is where he falls short.
Gott’s teams play at a sluggish pace. They generate few turnovers on defense, which doesn’t help speed up play. That isn’t really conducive to playing a deep bench. This is fine, of course, and I could care less about who gets what minutes, and how many minutes they get, as long as you win. To his credit, that was part of why KW saw less and less of the floor last year. I don’t buy the argument you need to go 10-12 deep to speed up play but it sure is helpful. I’ve always said his teams would benefit by playing faster. But I think we all know that isn’t happening. But go team! Good win last night. Hope it’s the start of many a mini-stream of sorts, and with Henderson’s return, maybe they can again make a run…Maybe.
and that’s leaving off Warren as he was actually drafted
Excuse me for walking into the pissing match – But Lo was drafted.
Shoes, I can accept that. What I am saying is that Gott is no more a “retentionless” coach than what is perused around the national landscape, and cannot be called out as some sort of weakness.
People seem to conveniently forget Henderson this year, and are having a very difficult time accepting a somewhat ebb and flow of an unexpected “rebuild.” SH%T happens.
Look around…it’s a weird year. Even with the BB heavys.
Shoes, I can accept that. What I am saying is that Gott is no more a “retentionless” coach than what is perused around the national landscape, and cannot be called out as some sort of weakness.
Well some people cannot accept what is shown to be.
You said the transfer rate is “33 1/3%” and Gott is “under the norm”. I have shown you that is not the case. Even if you pull out the three players that declared early even though they were not going to be drafted (which is just another way of transferring) he has had 7 players stay and 7 leave. That is 50%.
I repeat player retention is a weakness for Gott.Dropping out of school to join a workforce is another way of saying “transfer.”
I guess a guy who smacks women does so because it’s another way of saying “I love you.”
Leaving before Leslie, Brown, Purvis, deThaey, Lewis, Washington, Lacey, Tyler Harris, Jaqawn Raymond, Painter.
Leslie, Brown and Lacey left for the pros, which is not a negative for the program. The only remaining names of consequence are Washington and Painter. The rest couldn’t hack it either through lack of skill or attitude, or a combo of the two. Add to the list Harrow, who he rightfully steered elsewhere.
So Gott has lost 2 players worth a damn. When compared to other coaches, this is not a red flag.
I think an important point is being missed. The issue is not whether or not the transfers are a red flag. I’ll let others figure out if Gott is above or below the national average since I can’t muster any concern over that comparison. Because even if you could prove that transfers are a red flag, there isn’t anything we can do with that information.
The important point is that Gott can’t find enough good players to use the allotted scholarships so early departures continuously leave us short-handed. This situation basically means that State is only a little better off than we were with Sendek….perpetually on the bubble with a S-16 as a peak season.
PS…this is only a rebuilding year if Gott actually lands enough new recruits and keeps enough current players to actually constitute “building”. Time will tell whether he is building, treading water, or sinking.
It’ll be interesting to see what kind of affect this season has on the staff’s strategy moving forward. It’s actually pretty embarrassing the position we are in now – not even being able to run a 5 on 5 practice. No way that should happen here. You have to have a backup plan when you miss on these blue chippers. I do not see him building much of anything right now. And yes, we’re going to lose another player or two (and Cat goes pro).
Leaving before Leslie, Brown, Purvis, deThaey, Lewis, Washington, Lacey, Tyler Harris, Jaqawn Raymond, Painter.
Leslie, Brown and Lacey left for the pros, which is not a negative for the program. The only remaining names of consequence are Washington and Painter. The rest couldn’t hack it either through lack of skill or attitude, or a combo of the two. Add to the list Harrow, who he rightfully steered elsewhere.
So Gott has lost 2 players worth a damn. When compared to other coaches, this is not a red flag.
Wait, you think leaving early for the pros and not actually making the pros is a good thing for NCSU? Really?
Leaving before Leslie, Brown, Purvis, deThaey, Lewis, Washington, Lacey, Tyler Harris, Jaqawn Raymond, Painter.
Leslie, Brown and Lacey left for the pros, which is not a negative for the program. The only remaining names of consequence are Washington and Painter. The rest couldn’t hack it either through lack of skill or attitude, or a combo of the two. Add to the list Harrow, who he rightfully steered elsewhere.
So Gott has lost 2 players worth a damn. When compared to other coaches, this is not a red flag.
Wait, you think leaving early for the pros and not actually making the pros is a good thing for NCSU? Really?
Leslie and Brown are the only two that left early for the pros and both were drafted. You think that’s negative? Brown is getting NBA contracts. That’s negative? Equating players going professional as “transfers” is incorrect and appears to be an attempt to put the HC and the program in a bad light. Why would you want to do this?
Wait, you think leaving early for the pros and not actually making the pros is a good thing for NCSU? Really?
It’s a push at worst
And honestly, your sample size is just to small to be meaningful.
And also, per the NCAA 44% of players transfer by the end of their sophomore year. I can’t find any numbers on players turning pro early.
And lastly, most of those guys are playing pro ball. Just not in the US.
Look, @ Wulpack. You are usually on top of things going on in the sporting world, so I hate cherry picking ya, but…you claimed embarassment on a practice thing, and you are just, well…over the top here, and wrong.
The last time I looked, they have 12 healthy guys, including one of the players that is expected to fit right into the “rebuild,” next year, in Dorn. The way practices are run puts 6 in red jerseys, 6 in white, and 2 of 8 guys flipping the jersey inside out, within any given time.
Standard Ops.
If things go to hell with illness, and the likes…coaches just pull in a football or baseball player that was a fine high school BB player.
No intention of calling you out…people may just not know this.
CD, what’s your perspective on how it affects player development to practice against walk-ons and football/baseball players?
For instance, would it help the bigs develop more to practice against a player like Vandenberg vs. a Brickhouse?
CD, fwiw what you report contradicts what has been shared in several telecasts – the fact that we don’t have bodies to run full practices.
^Please share, as I missed that, and I’d be interested to know who said it, and what may have been exaggerated.
Paki, I don’t rightly know how to answer that other than, their are 300+ D1 teams out there doin’ the same thing.
he has had 7 players stay and 7 leave. That is 50%.
^not a math or stat wiz?
To get a transfer rate, or a leave early rate or whatever you want to call it…
1. we have to add a TIME variable to the equation… in this case 4 or 5 years as best fits…
2. we HAVE to count the guys who were or are still sitting on the Bench during the evaluation period defined in #1…
Fix that Sir and post your numbers please…
Now if what’s meant in the quote is …
“During Coach Gott’s tenure… for every one Basketball player who graduated or finished his eligibility ( those being two separate things) — one Basketball player left the program early for any reason”then that would appear to be 100% true statement.
But in NO WAYS can that which is in the quote be considered a “leave early rate”…GOTT it????
#NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!IMO the player retention problem is a bit overblown. First, examine the departures:
– Addition by subtraction: Harrow, TDT, Harris, Purvis. Also notable, Harrow didn’t give Gott a chance, so he can’t be Gott’s fault.
– Raymond never would have played; Gott never would have signed him. Zero impact.
– The reason given for Painter’s departure was family illness, which is not on Gott.
– Leslie, Warren, Brown, and Lacey left to go pro early. The only way to prevent this is not to recruit players good enough to go pro, i.e., not to recruit top talent. That is nonsensical.
– IMO both Lewis and Washington would have been clear backups if they stayed, likely playing 15 minutes or fewer per game, aside from injury/foul trouble situations.People like Rick want to bash Gott about player retention, but IMO it doesn’t hold up when you actually break it down. IMO you can throw out Harrow, TDT, Harris, and Raymond as not mattering, the guys who left early to go pro as being an acceptable consequence of signing top talent, and Painter’s family situation. Meanwhile, Gott brought in a lot talent via transfer: Johnson, Lee, Lacey, Turner, Henderson, Dorn. Given the high nationwide transfer rate, overall it seems to me that Gott has actually done a pretty good job in this area.
I think the real issue is what others have stated, that Gott should be signing more recruits and using all of his scholarships. IMO he should continue going after the elite talent, and he seems to be pretty good at that, especially considering he is representing N.C. State and competing pretty well for recruits with the blue blood programs. But he should not be limiting his recruiting to only the elite talent as he seems inclined to do. He needs to sign some lesser ranked players to fill out his rosters.
It also wouldn’t hurt if he had his teams play at a faster pace which enabled him to use a larger rotation and might enable him to keep more players happy with playing time, but IMO that is a weak criticism. The bottom line is he has a good track record on the court, which gives some validation to his system and rotations.
Also, here is the full list of players who have completed their eligibility under Gott:
Alex Johnson
CJ Williams
Kendall Smith
Richard Howell
Scott Wood
Jay Lewis
Jordan Vandenburg
Ralston Turner
Desmond Lee
Staats Battle
Chase Cannon (this year)Has a Gott recruit ever stayed all 4 years and graduated? I honestly cannot remember and too hungover to look it up.
People like Rick want to bash Gott about player retention,
I said it was a weakness of his. I notice you didn’t mention the strengths I listed cuz it doesn’t fit your narrative. Of course you go on to mention the things you think he does wrong but I guess when you do it it’s not “bashing”.
This is the type of year you get when you lose players and don’t replace them with talented players. He has lost an average of 1 3/4 players to transfer a year and 3/4 to leaving early with no hope of the NBA.
BTW are you really including walk ons to make a point? LOL
Leaving before Leslie, Brown, Purvis, deThaey, Lewis, Washington, Lacey, Tyler Harris, Jaqawn Raymond, Painter.
Leslie, Brown and Lacey left for the pros, which is not a negative for the program. The only remaining names of consequence are Washington and Painter. The rest couldn’t hack it either through lack of skill or attitude, or a combo of the two. Add to the list Harrow, who he rightfully steered elsewhere.
So Gott has lost 2 players worth a damn. When compared to other coaches, this is not a red flag.
Wait, you think leaving early for the pros and not actually making the pros is a good thing for NCSU? Really?
Leslie and Brown are the only two that left early for the pros and both were drafted. You think that’s negative? Brown is getting NBA contracts. That’s negative? Equating players going professional as “transfers” is incorrect and appears to be an attempt to put the HC and the program in a bad light. Why would you want to do this?
Leslie wasn’t drafted. Brown was 2nd round with no guaranteed contract. Lacey did not get drafted. It’s obvious they just wanted out of the program. And you think that is a good pitch to recruits that have NBA dreams?
And I don’t have to “put the coach in a negative light” his 1-5 ACC record does that.
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