Anybody NOT done with DD?

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  • #133451

    JaxPackMan
    Participant

    I do think that it can’t be understated just how strong we have become in the trenches – and how unusual that is for NC State football. Back to back 1000 yard runners. I think that says a lot (and only an injury kept that from happening 3 years in a row.

    Hey Choppack1 — Great observation about strength in the trenches. In my 60+ years of watching NC State Football, I don’t ever recall Wolfpack teams having much depth. Being able to cycle lineman onto the field throughout the game without a noticeable drop-off speaks volumes about improved recruiting.

    Convincing the better players has always been a hard sell for State. Perhaps the value of the NC State “brand” is rising. Sure seems to be a more positive vibe among the high schools about NCSU than in the past. Seems that the new culture is making it an easier sell to sign more and better players.

    JaxPackMan
    NCSU class of '76
    Jacksonville, FL

    #133452

    Texpack
    Participant

    our 4-2-5.
    3) Place kicking will be better

    If you said place kicking will be worse that might have prompted some objections.

    #133454

    44rules
    Participant

    our 4-2-5.
    3) Place kicking will be better

    If you said place kicking will be worse that might have prompted some objections.

    Welp, hard to get worse from ground zero!

    Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. Mao Zedong

    #133457

    ryebread
    Participant

    Couple of quick points:
    – Kicking: I don’t follow recruiting as closely as some, but it is my understanding that “the kicker” is due on campus this year as an incoming recruit (or maybe a recruit coming off a redshirt). Supposedly this is why we took a grad transfer as a one year stop gap last season. Kicking has cost us some games, so if we were even average we’d have had a couple of more years. Nowhere to go but up.

    – DD taking a more CEO approach: I believe that there’s no coincidence that in a couple of games or halves where headphones have been off from the head man of both squads, the Pack has looked better than the opposition. Some of the clock management and down and distance things that we’ve talked about numerous times have been baffling. I think DD does his best work Sunday-Friday and in the offseason, but doesn’t really have a good feel for the game on Saturday. I’m not in the huddle or on the microphones, so I could be wrong, but that is my take.

    In a similar vein, when people have been critical of Hux I have often wondered why they’re not similarly critical of DD. Hux is clearly running DD’s defense. My hope is that with Roof and Hux DD can trust enough to let go some on defense, which I think will ultimately end up better. Archer and Tenuta did better together than either did apart, and I think we may see Hux and Roof do the same.

    – Redshirting: Forgot to mention it, but I love it. For a lesser program like ours, this is the only way. We started that year 1, so I would agree with Grey that we sacrificed today for tomorrow, which I have liked. It is one of the things that I point to in defense of DD.

    – “Our” 4-2-5: I’m not an expert or a DC. My take is that you shift to 4-2-5 based on down and distance when you need an extra cover guy, and in an obvious passing down. Put an extra corner out there and press a bit more on the coverage, or drop one of the lb back, bring 5 and go full zone.

    I think as an every down defense you end up a bit weak against the run unless you end up running 3 safeties. Run 3 safeties every down and you’re effectively running a 4-3 because the weakside LB is often light and more mobile but is lined up closer to the line. Is a 4-2-5 with 3 safeties all that different than a 4-3 where the Will is lined up off the line? Maybe not so much, particularly given that in college that weakside lb was often a bigger safety in high school. If so, get the weakside LB/safety up closer to help with run support because I’m all about stopping the run.

    My problem is with “our” 4-2-5. We don’t press the edges taking away the pass, but we go light on the run because we back a man off the line. Often I see a safety in pursuit of a WR in an obvious passing down, so I don’t know how much down/distance subbing we’re doing (I will be the first to admit I haven’t charted it). A lot of our blitzes from the secondary are painfully obvious and slow developing. If we’re playing this way, we’d better have darn good LB and I would argue that LB is where we’ve been weakest the last few seasons.

    I’d be fine if we were 4-3 on most downs, rolling into a 4-2-5 on obvious passing downs. I think that’s a good look for college ball. Despite the “spread” conversations, I still think the game on defense is to make the opposition be one dimensional. I’d much rather shut down the run and force the pass, particularly in college. Make that QB beat you. There are probably only 10-20 good ones at the entire level. In ACC play, which ones actually scared you this past year with their arm? Not many, including Louisville’s and FSU’s.

    #133458

    Rick
    Keymaster

    Interesting thread. Funny to pull it back up after two years. Maybe I should grab some of those old Gott threads 😉

    I am still not sure what to think about DD. It was a very good year but also could have been a special year. When I see the talent we had on defense it makes me believe we under performed. I like everything I read about DD. He seems to go after high character kids.
    I don’t like the long term contact Yow handed him. Contacts had always been one of Yow’s weak points imo.

    I enjoyed the basketball this year. It was a very unexpectedly good year. I am a little concerned about the defense. We got burned way too many times. Jay Wright has proceed you don’t need to ten recruiting classes but a good system and player development. Here’s to hoping KK’s system is even close that that level of success.

    Btw I have a feeling I will be watching a lot of wbb in the future. They are fun to watch. The women’s championship game was fantastic.

    #133459

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Rye, Many teams have gone away from the traditional run/down — passing/down options that most of us grew up playing or watching. IOW teams are running on what were traditional passing downs and passing on 1st down or 2nd and short. Not always of course but often enough.

    With the shotgun and pistol formations QBs are getting pre-snap reads on defenses, etc. This makes aligning defenses based on down and distance dicey. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said, “Why in the hell are we running on this down and distance?” when Hines would rip off a first down or TD run..

    I would line up safeties at the LOS on the opps WRs. Make contact, hold them up at the line if possible, release the WRs to the CBs and the safeties would be there for run support at the LOS. See why I’m not coaching? LOL

    Our WRs were small when DD got here. Now they are as big as LBs. OTH Our CBs last year had trouble covering big receivers and were getting blocked by these same guys. We now have CBs who are big and athletic enough to cover those same big receivers. We shall see if it makes any difference.
    .

    #133460

    Greywolf
    Participant

    I forgot this. With the popularity of hurry up offenses, defenses can’t make the substitutions to go from 4-3 to 4-2-5 on so called passing downs.

    Even when hurry up offenses want to slow the game down, defenses have to be ready.

    #133461

    Greywolf
    Participant

    When I see the talent we had on defense it makes me believe we under performed.

    The elite talent (4 likely drafted) was only on the defensive line. Our LB were experienced but not elite (0 likely drafted) and our DB’s (0 likely drafted) were okay but a weak spot on last year’s team. The 4 elite D-linemen gave the appearance of talent on defense but we were only talented on the D-line.

    Rick, I was afraid a new football thread in April would not get off the ground, thus I picked a “hot” thread from the past. Seems to have worked and a number of folks are enjoying the conversation.

    I know I am. 😉

    #133462

    maverick_ncsu
    Participant

    I too am enjoying this thread…

    Forgive my ignorance, but what is the difference between most 4-2-5’s and a nickel package defense? Full disclosure: I have watched football my entire life but didn’t start paying attention to packages and names until I played (way too much) NCAA football on the Xbox in college.

    #133463

    ryebread
    Participant

    When I see the talent we had on defense it makes me believe we under performed.

    The elite talent (4 likely drafted) was only on the defensive line. Our LB were experienced but not elite (0 likely drafted) and our DB’s (0 likely drafted) were okay but a weak spot on last year’s team. The 4 elite D-linemen gave the appearance of talent on defense but we were only talented on the D-line.?

    This is kind of my point running 4-2-5. The strength of this defense from second one of DD has been the DL. We inherited the most from talent from TOB on defense at the DL. TOB’s DL coach went to Clemson and our first DL coach under DD was arguably better. Will the current one recruit and develop talent as well as the last two? We shall see, but that is a tall order. Hopefully our S&C program helps with that.

    The weakness has been the back 7 and especially the secondary. We’ve turned over several coaches in the back, and now are bringing in another coach to help. If DBs are my weakest link, I’m not putting 5 out there every down. It’d be like choosing to kick a FG when the offense stalls out at the 35 given our place kicking (no comment on that).

    I think the impact of the spread/hurry up teams are greatly exaggerated. For every Oregon under Chip Kelly, there are a half dozen Syracuses under Dino Babers. Yeah, they play fast but they shoot themselves in the foot as often as they do something good with their tempo, and that tempo on offense leaves their defense dead tired. A lot of those tempo teams end up giving up lots and lots of points. One could argue it is due to more possessions and plays, but their per play and per possession defensive stats are pretty bad.

    I do think teams with more talent should play at a faster tempo and I think the exact same thing in basketball. If you’ve got more talent, run more plays, lengthen the game and eventually those great players will win in 1-1 match ups, or the lesser team will “return to their norm” and make a mistake. In converse if you don’t have talent, take the air out of the ball, shorten the game and hopefully you catch a lucky break or two (Loyola Chicago just put on a clinic on how to do this in the NCAA tournament).

    Oregon was good because they had GREAT talent and a great set of college coaches. The great head coach left and there was enough talent there for 1 more year, but things went downhill quickly. Alabama is great because they have a great coach and great talent. They have a totally different style that is probably the polar opposite of those spread/tempo teams but they still won their 2nd title in 3 years and 4th in the past 7. One can win that way just as well, and arguably even more convincingly if you’ve got the right players and coaches.

    If I’m coaching, give me a team that can run the ball when they want to and stops the run on defense. We FINALLY have a real OL (and I credit DD and Ledford for that). Run the ball until the other team shows they can stop you, then mix it up. Last year we had a stud DL (of which I’ve only seen something similar at NC State one time). Stack the box, stop the run, force passing downs and turn that DL loose. This game doesn’t seem that hard.

    I hope we can keep the lines going. More than anything else, that will be the key to our success. If we can, then we may actually eventually break through and win something meaningful — despite scheme, baffling in game decisions, etc..

    #133464

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Debbie Yow has been mentioned a time or 2 in this thread. Let’s bring he accomplishments up to date.

    At this moment NC State is 4th in the Directors cup standings. That’s not a typo. 4th in the Nation. I don’t know about you but I never in my wildest dreams thought I’d see us that high. That’s not the final ranking but we will be ranked very high regardless of how women’s gymnastics and baseball turn out for us.

    #133466

    ryebread
    Participant

    Yow’s done a great overall job. If you look to the right you’ll see a tweet of a picture that shows we have 1/2 the budget of Ohio State and that Stanford spends 25% more than we do.

    She’s not been perfect, and no one is perfect at their job. Her biggest gap in my mind has been Gott. He’s gone now, and she’s hired better with Keatts. Hopefully the gift of Gott doesn’t keep on giving. If it goes the wrong way, Yow might end up retiring early.

    #133467

    tractor57
    Participant

    It is offseason for football and basketball. How Yow done her jab? I think so but we will see. Minus Gott (and coming in a bad situation) I see no real issue. Budget seems to be in order. Non money sports are doing well, basketball and football seemingly on the rise. If you think different bring i sweaty Gary.

    #133468

    Texpack
    Participant

    The pro DD argument is that he took us from the disaster that was semi-retired TOB recruiting and the accompanying dearth of talent to a spot where we were competitive with the best teams in the ACC.

    The anti DD argument is that he still hasn’t won a game against a superior opponent and he hasn’t won all of the games he was supposed to win.

    Finley/Drinky are largely responsible for saving his job imo. If we continue with a steady upgrade in talent level we might have a shot at the ACC title game before long. So this is the long winded way of saying the jury is still out and I can see sane people in both camps. He’s not Knute Rockne but he’s not Tom Reed either.

    #133470

    YogiNC
    Participant

    Ummmm, tex I think, and it’s only my opinion, while we didn’t knock Clemson off we did send both da ville and the semiholes packing this year. The year before if we had a kicker Clemson wouldn’t have gotten that natty perhaps. Couple that with the Ref ripoff by the domers this year and we were very close. Since 2001 by the middle of the season I knew we didn’t have a chance. Like I said in my previous post, look at the recruits we got this year. I’ve never seen that since I started following recruiting classes. Yeah, we got a blue chipper or two from time to time but the rest were never all 3 stahs and above. By some services we had 5 four stars, FIVE! I LIKE IT!

    Smarter than the average bear

    #133472

    Greywolf
    Participant

    If DBs are my weakest link, I’m not putting 5 out there every down.

    That makes sense, however, 4 years ago when we installed the 4-2-5 we had to start 2 freshmen LB’s. Our DB’s weren’t our weakest link then. In 4 years we didn’t up grade the LB. I’m trusting DD on this one. His long range planning is his long suit and if his study shows we’d best go with 4-2-5, I’m all in.

    In 2018 we have Tennessee transfer (R-Jr) Stephen Griffin, 6-3, 211 lbs at the 5th DB, Nickel. That’s near LB size. He’s backed up by Freddie Phillips, 6-1, 205. Doeren is really high on Griffin. IIRC he’s got the speed to cover. I’m trying to stifle my enthusiasm but it’s not easy. Coach talk is we will be blitzing more to make up for the lose of pass rushers.

    Being the eternal (or is that infernal or infuriating) optimist that I am, I can see how it’s possible for our defense to actually be more effective even with the loss of our great DL.

    I appreciate your comments and the civility of our discussions. I know I piss you off occasionally but it’s who I am.

    #133473

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Like I said in my previous post, look at the recruits we got this year. I’ve never seen that since I started following recruiting classes. Yeah, we got a blue chipper or two from time to time but the rest were never all 3 stahs and above. By some services we had 5 four stars, FIVE! I LIKE IT!

    All right Yogi, calm yourself. You know being over-the-top enthusiastic is my role on SFN.

    We do seem to be catching the next tier of recruits. We are being contacted for visits by the class of recruits who wouldn’t return our calls a season ago. One such recruit has 4 SEC teams in his top 5 PLUS the Pack.

    George McDonald is doing a great job in Florida. I’m anxious to see what Ted Roof can do with all his contacts in Georgia. Believe it or not Hux is very well thought by the HS players. Maybe it’s that grandfather image.

    Actually Hux is an inspiring human being. I heard him on a video and I wanted to run through a brick wall for him. Being great human beings is the one thing our coaches all have in common. Dave wouldn’t have it any other way.

    #133474

    Rick
    Keymaster

    Rick, I was afraid a new football thread in April would not get off the ground, thus I picked a “hot” thread from the past. Seems to have worked and a number of folks are enjoying the conversation.

    Touche

    It was a very good wiley veteran move.

    #133475

    Rick
    Keymaster

    His long range planning is his long suit and if his study shows we’d best go with 4-2-5, I’m all in.

    Dumb question. How do you know this? Had he been somewhere that has proven this strength? I am not saying it isn’t a strength (I honestly have no idea) but I was just wondering what evidence you have for this claim.

    #133476

    Rick
    Keymaster

    Actually Hux is an inspiring human being. I heard him on a video and I wanted to run through a brick wall for him. Being great human beings is the one thing our coaches all have in common. Dave wouldn’t have it any other way.

    This does seem to be the case. I really like Drink and read a great story about a coach who went with our punter on mission trip. It wasn’t even there punters position coach.

    #133478

    Greywolf
    Participant

    This does seem to be the case. I really like Drink and read a great story about a coach who went with our punter on mission trip. It wasn’t even there punters position coach.

    It was Aaron Henry, nickel back coach, who wanted to make a difference so he went along with Cole on Cole’s mission along with Kyle Bambard, the kicker who will not quit. Me? I would have transferred out a long time ago. I’ve come to respect Bambard greatly just not as a kicker.

    #133479

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Dumb question. How do you know this?

    I’d tell you then I’d have to kill you. 😉

    Had he been somewhere that has proven this strength? I am not saying it isn’t a strength (I honestly have no idea) but I was just wondering what evidence you have for this claim.

    Now Rick, if we need evidence for claims, we may as well shut down the site. LOL I do know Doeren was DC for Bret Bielema at Wisconsin for 5 years. There was no reason to fix what was working at Northern Illinois and the DC who was there when he got there continued with what he was using.

    So obviously I have no hard evidence. I’m not sure where I came up with this notion. I read everything I can get my hands on about the Pack, the football HC, assistant coaches, the recruiting staff, etc. I am also good friends with the guy who was the fullback in the backfield with Roman Gabriel. There’s a veterans’ dinner the night before the spring game. I pick up stuff from him Roger that he hears and from some of his old teammates.

    Put it all those bits and pieces together and drew a conclusion. There was no news story. I’m not friends with Doeren or Hux. I have no real inside information.

    I’m also 81 now so my memory ain’t what it used to be. In the cobwebs of my mind I vaguely remember something said about this defense and the change at the beginning of Doeren’s 2nd spring practice. I’m sure that Doeren never coached the 4-2-5 before he installed it here.

    I deduced that Doeren saw that defense as the defense to best combat the direction offenses were going. I do know that he and Hux worked together to come up with what they thought best at the time.

    Change and evolution is the history of football. Offenses create to defeat the current defenses. Defenses then change to stop the offense that is doing the damage, etc., etc., etc. Before the forward pass 7 & 8 man lines were common place. Then 6 man lines with 3 backers and 2 DB’s. Next 5-3 then 5-2 defenses. All evolving to stop the passing game or latest running game craze. Which brings us to the subject at hand, the 4-2-5.

    It could have been as simple as Bret Bielema, the Wisconsin HC moving to Arkansas and Matt Canada installing spread offense wrinkles in his absence and putting 70 pts on Nebraska. That would influence Doeren’s thinking after watching Nebraska trying to stop all that with the 4-3-4

    I expect we will see more 3 man lines in the future. With our shortage of D-linemen something like a 3-4-4 might be the best defense for us. Who knows? Doeren isn’t going to ask my opinion.

    So the answer to your question, I have no evidence for this claim.

    #133480

    phcqmfd
    Participant

    As an aside we are 4th in the latest Director’s Cup. Think where we would be if we had a good AD.

    Opps, we have great AD, that is why we are fourth !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    #133481

    YogiNC
    Participant

    And we sit atop our division in baseball. Thanks for the info ph.

    Smarter than the average bear

    #133482

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Rick,
    Continued

    You know basketball. Basketball defense is changing to defend the 3-point basket that nearly every team now has shooters to make them.

    When you defend the 3 you give the offense more opportunities for 2’s. I see KK is recruiting guys who can leap and who can defend the rim. Without these type guys you are just giving away layups. Football is the same way. Defend the run heavily and you give up the pass. Back off the LOS to defend the pass and you give up the run. When we go to what used to work, I can just about guarantee a good OC will take advantage of what you are doing. Same thing the opposite way.

    How you disguise you offensive and defensive intent is critical. Wolfpack recruits are getting to be better athletes. That and their intelligence bodes well for NC State.

    Fedora is, and I hate to say this, a brilliant offensive mind. When he came to UNC as HC and chose a defense, he went with the 4-2-5 probably thinking it was the better defense to defend the evolving offenses. A good offensive man would or should know.

    When his defense failed to be effective, he blamed his DC, fired him and hired Gene Chizik who went with the 4-3-3 he knew. What was not taken into consideration is that Jimmies and Joes are needed for any defense to be truly effective. Somehow or another the holes defensive personnel weren’t up to the task. The arrangements and schemes didn’t cover the lack of talent.

    Many, including some on this board, say that the Wolfpack 4-2-5 is Doeren’s defense and Hux is just doing what DD tells him to do. I doubt that for a number of reasons. Primary reason is personality of Doeren and his character. Doeren has said things about the discussions he and Hux have had and reveals his respect for Hux.

    Defense today is assignment football. Do your assignment. If one doesn’t, the defense fails. Occasionally you will see a glaring mistake made by a defensive player on a very good team. When that occurs it is a very good chance that somebody blew an assignment. Offenses shift, put people in motion etc. to cause defensive player to have to make decision and make mistakes.
    D
    This is more than you, Rick, asked for but I’ve had fun spelling out my thoughts on the evolution of defenses. The same is true of offenses. Drinkwitz is the next generation of OC’s. If he was doing the same thing he learned 5 or 10 years ago, he would be behind the curve.

    With all the thinking and innovation going on, it’s still the Jimmies and Joes that make the real difference. Position coaches like Ledford and Nielsen coach and train the men in the trenches. Ledford is our run game coordinator and as such is designing the blocking schemes.

    The “Stretch Play” is today’s bread and butter play. It IMO is nothing more than an off tackle play with a blocking scheme that gives defenses fits. The runner has more choices than just off-tackle which further makes life difficult for defenses. We are back to position defense. One player out of position can be very costly.

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