Newsflash – Paying Customers Don’t Like Being Treated Like Naughty 8-Year Olds

We saw this nugget from The Technician a few weeks ago, but didn’t have the time to express our thoughts at the time. In a finding which no doubt caused Bob Kennel to close his eyes and shake his head disapprovingly:

The WITH program has not received as much positive feedback as Student Government would have liked, according to Dawkins, and therefore the committee discussed having the WITH program organizers obtain more corporate sponsors, cutting back on policing, distributing water and koozies at games and trying more to encourage positive sportsmanship.

REALLY? People don’t feel their gameday experience is heightened by a smarm of tattlers in the parking lots, and frequent cornball reminders to play nice with the other kids? Hell, it’s like people think they’ve paid their money and expect to be left the hell alone to enjoy themselves (within reasonable boundaries).

As Kennel would no doubt tell you, that’s unacceptable. The only rude people in the world are at NC State tailgates. Our “negativity” by occasionally discussing objective facts and gasp – expecting to win – is totally unique, and keeping our bright lights hidden under a bushel. Despite generations of Wolfpackers who grew up tailgaiting and attending football games (and now share the same experience with their own kids), the atmosphere is completely toxic (beer! dirty words!) and every parent who doesn’t see that should be referred to Social Services. We must take whatever wild, over-reaching, baseless actions as may be hypothetically necessary to solve all of these non-problems!

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

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44 Responses to Newsflash – Paying Customers Don’t Like Being Treated Like Naughty 8-Year Olds

  1. choppack1 06/23/2008 at 2:29 PM #

    To me, the biggest part in the story is this little gem:

    *Although some students, faculty and alumni continue to push for longer tailgating hours, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs Tom Stafford said the administration, especially the chancellor, believe the best policy is currently in place and it will not be changing.*

    Regarding WITH, did anyone have any interaction w/ the WITH folks? I haven’t really heard of any problems and I never ran into them, so I can’t tell you if the program is good or bad. I will say this, the atmosphere at the fairgrounds was unacceptable – and I’ve seen things get pretty crazy, especially there. I don’t think sportsmanship reminders are a bad thing, but I don’t think that “crossing guards” are the answer. I also really think that it’s far more effective if we police our own – w/out the assistance. I can only imagine how I’d react as a 21 year old if someone came up to me w/ this get up and told me to tone it down.

  2. packbackr04 06/23/2008 at 3:10 PM #

    we park in the varsity club area and are never bothered by WITH hall monitors. but i do have friends who park closer to the students that have expressed resentment towards the WITH people b/c they are constantly shushed and told to play nice.

  3. choppack1 06/23/2008 at 3:22 PM #

    packbackr – Everything is relevant. First off, sticking 5K students together is creating a defacto lawn party. When I was a student, we had block seating and w/ that access to Section G, but we were in the grounds and even in the late 80s, early 90s, tailgating wasn’t then what it has become. I can only imagine what it would have been like if 5K students were around.

    But I wouldn’t necessarily limit it to NC State. When we played FSU in Tally Philip’s Senior year, it was the ABC 3:30 game. Up to then, I was under the impression that the good fans of FSU where as genteel and sophisticated as they come. A quick walk through the guantlet that was their student section changed that.

    I would also tell you, that voluntary patrols walking through the alumni section – keeping to themselves and just seeing if something is up – probably isn’t a bad idea. OTOH, it’s a bad idea to have WITH folks in area where police may be better served.

  4. Big Worm 06/23/2008 at 5:25 PM #

    Has anyone ever heard of frequent or serious tailgating conduct issues in the *alumni* tailgating areas? All of this talk about tailgating restrictions has always perplexed me, because it always seemed like 98% of the tailgating problems were generated in the *student* tailgating areas.

    I never understood why the university made such heavy-handed, sweeping tailgating changes when only 15% of the tailgaters, who were all in the same parking lot, were the ones causing the problems. Many of those causing the problems were not even State students, or were not students with tickets to the game.

    Does anyone with inside knowledge of the tailgating regulation implementation know what other methods were considered prior to deciding to restrict the tailgating freedoms of all for the crimes of a few? Were checking tickets for all occupants in cars entering the student lot, increasing police/security/ALE presence in the student lot, actually planning and organizing productive student activities (pig pickings, cornhole tournaments, etc.) in the student lot, and other similar forms of crime/lewd behavior prevention discussed prior to giving everybody the shaft with the tailgating time limit?

    Were the administrations at SEC schools, famous for their lively tailgate party atmosphere, consulted to determine possible methods of increasing game day safety and decorum without compromising the enjoyment of tens of thousands that pay a *lot* of money to socialize and bask in the atmosphere of college football for seven short Saturdays a year?

    I’m guessing ‘no’.

  5. ADS95 06/23/2008 at 6:42 PM #

    *Although some students, faculty and alumni continue to push for longer tailgating hours, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs Tom Stafford said the administration, especially the chancellor, believe the best policy is currently in place and it will not be changing.*

    We’ll see if he changes his tune with the traffic created for the FSU game this season:

    1. Can’t get to the lot before 3pm
    2. State Fair has “soft” opening That Day
    3. Normal rush hour traffic starting around 4pm…

  6. Primewolf 06/23/2008 at 7:07 PM #

    What is scary is the thinking that went into NCSU policy. It indicates the lack of good decision making that permeates the university.

  7. redfred2 06/23/2008 at 9:40 PM #

    “Were the administrations at SEC schools, famous for their lively tailgate party atmosphere, consulted to determine possible methods of increasing game day safety and decorum without compromising the enjoyment of tens of thousands that pay a *lot* of money to socialize and bask in the atmosphere of college football for seven short Saturdays a year?”

    I’m guessing NOT also. But I’d be willing to bet money they’ve consulted our good neighbors, with all of their fanatical football fan problems, over there in CH. That, of course, would be for nothing more than to see if they approve of how everyone is conducting themselves over in Raleigh.

  8. redfred2 06/23/2008 at 9:50 PM #

    “…the administration, especially the chancellor, believe the best policy is currently in place and it will not be changing.*”

    Now that’s a blanket statement if I’ve heard one.

    Don’t they keep copies of that statement in the lobbies and just hand it out whenever any issues come up?

  9. Tar Heel Fan 06/23/2008 at 10:30 PM #

    You know what I find interesting. I have been out to the Fairgrounds two straight years attending fireworks on the 4th and there you have a whole bunch of people parked in the parking lot, tailgating, setting off fireworks(some of them illegal) with most of them drinking and what not. I have yet to witness a single incident other than a little road rage trying to get out once the fireworks ended. Now this is open to the public, anyone can go out there so I would surmise that the potential for trouble is there since there is no restriction on when folks can get out there and what they can really do once they arrive.

    Now if the city of Raleigh and the folks that run the fairgrounds can be that hands off with an event like that you would think that NCSU with people coming to see the game having paid serious money in some cases to do so would be equally hands off. There is nothing more annoying when governments and administrations invoke idiotic edicts because they are afraid of what might happen or because one incident occurred during the course of a long history of nothing happening(save when ECU fans showed up.)

  10. redfred2 06/23/2008 at 10:56 PM #

    THF, you don’t understand, NCSU administration has no identity of it’s own, they’re just kinda there, breathing air and taking up space. They know they don’t have much influence on anything one way or the other, so whenever ANYTHING happens involving NCSU, they take it as direct reflection on themselves, and they clamp down hard.

  11. mafpack 06/23/2008 at 11:32 PM #

    Is it just me or does anyone else look at the “WITH” car stickers and logo and just see the “WTH” part? As in the internet short for “What the Hell” – I actually had a student friend laugh and say out loud “W Tee H?” when he saw the sticker/sign for the first time.

    Seems silly to use something that so closely resembles “WTH” “WTF” and other such profane acronyms.

    All that besides, I’ve often wondered about the decision to segregate all of the students into a single (or a few) tailgating sections, essentially removing all other adult supervision/influence and encouraging what has become some very large drinking festivals. Even as a student I rarely entered the student parking area when I had a ticket/parking permit because I would rather (and did) tailgate with adults and families who choose to enjoy the time spent together, instead of drinking themselves into oblivion.

    Does anyone think that just the presence of families/alumni would tamper student rowdiness, especially if those students were spread out throughout the parking areas and not consolidated so much?

    Sorry if this doesn’t all make sense, I’m exhausted but wanted to post while the thoughts were fresh.

  12. redfred2 06/23/2008 at 11:41 PM #

    You call that fresh??? I submitted that exact same post, word for word, two weeks ago.

  13. 66pack 06/24/2008 at 7:14 AM #

    The key item in staford’s statement is that OBLINGER desires the current tailgating rule .I believe OBLINGER wants to appease UNC board of governors and just retire in current position.UNC governors desire only for UNC CH to be in national limelight.Today it was reported that the new chairman of the board made a public annoncement that she did not support UNC C means of funding a football program i.e. she does not want them to have a football program.

  14. choppack1 06/24/2008 at 7:42 AM #

    66 Pack – I’ve never met Oblinger – and don’t have a whole lot of background on him other than this decision, the decision to give Fowler an award, and the decision to extend his contract. The good news is that our graduation rate is improving (as a whole school) based on my latest NCSU magazine. Of course, I’m not going to expect any hard-hitting analysis that could even imply criticism of the current leadership.

    I imagine he’s a bit like Monteith, a nice man, w/ lifelong service to the university, who loves his school and wants NC State to be a great academic institution and a great place to work. Athletics fit in there, but winning is just “icing on the cake.”

    When I see tailgating policies like these – I just can’t help to imaginge what it would seem like to people who really haven’t embraced this concept. “You mean to tell me, you get there early set up a tent, a grill, a satellite TV hook up to watch other games and drink beer. Shouldn’t they do that for an NFL game?”

    It probably also pains academic types that the most intense association folks have to NC State – for students, former students and even the few – and world’s most patient – bandwagon fans – is our football and men’s basketball team.

    For someone like me – tailgating at C-F started in college and yes, sorry Oblinger and Stafford – was a special experience that I associate strongly w/ the university and my days there. It was safe (at least from others) and largely unregulated. I hope this will be the case for future Wolfpackers.

  15. RAWFS 06/24/2008 at 7:45 AM #

    Tom Stafford (Vice Chancellor of Student Affairs): “The Chancellor and I think that five hours is about the limit to which we would extend tailgating time…if the WITH program is not effective, that five-hour limit could be cut back to four, or even less.”

    July 16, 2007

  16. RAWFS 06/24/2008 at 7:49 AM #

    Instead of re-writing my thoughts on this, just read this — things haven’t changed in the “Punish The Innocent” program. Considering that Tom Stafford is involved, they never will.

    RAWFS tailgating column from 2006

    [L]et’s be honest here. The problems that exist because of tailgating are confined to a small minority, and the bulk of the problems they cause are confined to a single area. They deserve punishment and limitation, not the vast majority of alumni, students and fans who can assemble at any hour and do so peaceably for whatever period that they are present prior to kickoff.

    Further, let’s be frank: four, six, eight hours, three days, whatever, will not make a difference for someone who intends to come to Carter-Finley and cause trouble. Four hours is plenty of time to drink a bottle of whiskey and break it over someone’s head. It is plenty of time to drink too many beers and careen down Trinity Road drunk behind the wheel of a car. It is plenty of time to take drugs, get into fights, whatever. So what’s the arbitrary term of four hours supposed to improve, exactly? Frankly, we’re not sure.

    All of the changes began from on tragic incident, the Tailgate Murders. As many know, two young people lost their lives at the hands of two others in the Trinity Road Parking Lot. A cursory examination would indicate tailgating was the problem, and it would be a wise idea to curtail it. That would be a wrong conclusion, however, because the murders were committed by two men who were not in the parking lot to go to the football game, and the victims were also not there to go to the football game. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of the crowd of 57,800 fans were already within Carter-Finley when the tragedy erupted — and those without radios were unaware of the events that had transpired until after they returned to their vehicles.

    So that says one thing: that incident was caused by people who should have never been there in the first place. Because it took place well within four hours of kickoff, time was not an issue. So the question begs again: why this arbitrary time limit?

    We’re not sure. One thing we are sure of though is that this is not popular with a number of alumni. Graduates of NC State do not like being treated like children.

  17. Rick 06/24/2008 at 7:58 AM #

    Isn’t Bob Kennel the genius that wrote the “ten seeds of greatness” about Sendek while bragging about how he ran Valvano out of town?

    If it is the same guy he is a detriment to NCSU.

  18. LRM 06/24/2008 at 8:16 AM #

    I went to Oxford for a game in 2006 and there had been recent tailgating changes there that infuriated the Ole Miss fan base, as well: tailgating in The Grove had been limited to no earlier than midnight the day before the game, meaning no more two- and three-day tailgates, which apparently interferred with normal campus traffic.

    The nerve.

  19. tvp1 06/24/2008 at 8:23 AM #

    “Is it just me or does anyone else look at the “WITH” car stickers and logo and just see the “WTH” part? As in the internet short for “What the Hell” – I actually had a student friend laugh and say out loud “W Tee H?” when he saw the sticker/sign for the first time.”

    Oh yes. I thought the exact same thing. And as a slogan for NC State sports, I can’t think of anything more appropriate.

  20. BoKnowsNCS71 06/24/2008 at 8:34 AM #

    Most amazing case of over-reaction I’ve ever seen. One bad incident occurs on the State Fairground’s land (not inside the NCSU containment area) in 40 years of tailgating and they put in a corrective action like this?

    They are deluding themselves in thinking their solution is protecting anyone and making things better. And they are deluding themselves in thinking that the same thing won’t happen again either on or off the NCSU proeprty.

    Stuff happens. Bureaucrats get criticized. Feel embarassed. They react with a rule to prevent future problems — and the embarassment of someone claiming they did nothing. We all lose a freedom. And we are comforted by the thought that we are “safe”. That is until the next problem.

  21. Noah 06/24/2008 at 8:34 AM #

    I’ve tailgated at Tennessee and had a great time. I’ve tailgated at Death Valley while wearing NC State colors and had a great time. I’ve tailgated at UNC while wearing NC State colors and had a miserable time because I was eating my food in a freaking hospital parking deck while choking on exhaust fumes because there isn’t any decent parking in the entire town (I’ve often said that Chapel Hill offers everything a college student could want…provided the thing that you want isn’t, “to park your car.”)

    I’ve also tailgated at Dook, but let’s limit our discussion to actual football games and not pee-wee flag football scrimmages.

    I’ve never seen anything as bad as the fairgrounds lot at any of those other schools. Whenever I hear about bad behavior towards opposing fans, I ask them where it happened and *every* single time, it’s the fairground lots.

    I still don’t think you need new rules to fix the problem. I think you need to enforce the laws that are already in place. Put a heavy police presence in that area and start issuing tickets for public drunkeness, littering, noise violations, etc. If it’s against the law to drink on state property, issue tickets for it. Make it inhospitable for people who go there (apparently) with the intent of breaking the law.

  22. BoKnowsNCS71 06/24/2008 at 8:41 AM #

    Is it illegal to drink on State Fairgrounds property? You can rent Kerr Scott for banquets with alcohol.

    I do think that the State Fairgrounds lands need more policing. Are they even affected by the NCSU time limit when NCSU has no jusrisdiction there?

  23. choppack1 06/24/2008 at 8:57 AM #

    The problem w/ the fairgrounds is that it’s entirely open. We parked there a few times – and it was scary. Still – this can be minimized by requiring a few items: A ticket to the game and/or a student ID. There should be an increased police prescence in this area.

    This is the classic 80/20 case. 80% of the problems are cauased by the fairgrounds. Oblinger and Stafford, rather than addressing this root cause, choose to go after paying season ticket holders…typical.

  24. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 06/24/2008 at 9:55 AM #

    Anytime you have an unelected body making choices for 150,000 alumni you are going to have problems. These people are not employed to make alumni and fans happy they are around to please their boss.

    It would be nice to have an organization that represents alumni and fans that doesn’t have all the politically correct BS that the Wolfpack Club has to maintain.

    I’ll suggest the Statefansnation.com Club. Wouldn’t be a shame if State had a nationally televised game and only 20,000K people showed because of a well organized boycott because voices are not being heard. I think an NC State ESPN game that look like a Raleigh-Durham Skyhawks game would get some attention.

  25. BoKnowsNCS71 06/24/2008 at 10:23 AM #

    Boycott not going to happen. Politics and sports just don’t mix. Most of the guys who could influence change are up in their luxury suites 5-6 hours before, sipping Jack Daniels and eating catered food.

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