Worst Loss of the Sendek Era?

General Headscratchers NCS Basketball161

I think so. It was disgusting to watch this overachieving Carolina team come in and outwork us like that. They wanted each loose ball, each rebound 1000 times worse than we did. To his credit, Sendek didn’t try putting any lipstick on the pig, admitting that we were outcoached, outplayed, out-everything. And that pretty much sums it up. It was humiliating, and it will take more than a 12-win ACC season to make up for it. And I really don’t want to see the “0 for Roy” streak extended in the ACC semis.

What will make up for it? An Elite Eight or an ACCT title. Anything less, and this season will leave a very bitter taste in my mouth.

More thoughts in the morning. I need some freaking sleep.

TWO LAST THOUGHTS: The game got so out of hand that Quinton Thomas got significant minutes. Quinton f’ing Thomas! And they extended the lead with him in the game. Also, my last fuse was lit when we refused to speed up the offense or press on defense down 18 points with 5 minutes to play. But when Roy sent in the blue team in the last minute, we pressed ’em with our regulars! Way to show some real stones there, Coach!

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

General Headscratchers NCS Basketball

161 Responses to Worst Loss of the Sendek Era?

  1. class of '74 02/23/2006 at 3:35 PM #

    Bunches of us would be more than willing to see Herb test the waters because lords knows he’s not about to be dismissed anytime soon.

  2. Trout 02/23/2006 at 3:40 PM #

    On the football issue: Chuck has his problems, as has been documented in many places.

    Honestly, it helps Chuck that our 2 neighbors dont have 7 National Titles in football like they do in basketball. The competition, locally, isnt as tough in football as basketball.

  3. class of '74 02/23/2006 at 3:47 PM #

    Frankly State should be a football school but Chuck is proving to be a fraud.

  4. VaWolf82 02/23/2006 at 3:49 PM #

    Aside from the one Gator Bowl year the basketball team has been consistently better than the football team. Why is there this huge disconnect?

    I’ll assume that this is a real question (not just a troll) and give my POV. First of all, Chuck won immediately going to four straight bowl games, winning three. (MOC won one BG in seven years.) The Gator Bowl year easily ranks among the top three seasons ever for State. One outstanding year earns big-time “Brownie Points”….that have just about run out for Chuck. When you get booed at home…it’s not generally considered a sign of outstanding fan support.

    A smaller point, Chuck is 3-3 against UNC and 3-3 against FSU. This earns additinal brownie points….which are once again running out after going 0-2 against UNC the last two years.

    Compare that with 10 years of Sendek netting exactly one S-16. Sendek has never had that one outstanding season to earn Brownie Points. Sendek has frightfully few wins against either the top teams in the conference, or UNC….another sore point. In short, Sendek appears to be stuck on pretty good.

  5. VaWolf82 02/23/2006 at 3:53 PM #

    Another way to contrast the two coaches:

    Amato’s victories over FSU give fans reasons to hope for better seasons in the future. Sendek’s small resume of big wins gives little reason to hope for a brighter future….just more of the same.

  6. Trout 02/23/2006 at 4:04 PM #

    ^ On the flip side, I can say with 100% confidence that Herb has elevated NC State into the upper tier (Top 4) of the ACC in basketball. We are in the 2nd to perhaps 3rd tier in football.

    Sustained “goodness” vs occassional “greatness.”

    I think many would sacrifice losses to UNC and a non-NCAA appearance for a banner of some sort.

    For example, the 1987 year under V was horrible. Just horrible, until 3 magic days in March erased it all from memory. If Herb should win the ACCT, same thing.

    I think Herb can get us to the NCAA Tournament every year. V also did that. The difference is that V beat UNC about once every 2 years, whereas Herb is under that mark, and the bigger difference is that V had much more tournament success.

    I hate Dicky V, but he is right about one thing – no one really cares about regular season success, it is what you do in the tournament(s) that people remember. And getting to the tournament every year no longer matters (although ask Prosser and Gary if it matters), it is what you do there that matters.

    Herb needs something of his own to hang in the RBC Center, beside NCAAT appearance banners.

    I dont think NC State basketball is mediocre. I think it is above that, and “good”, but not “very good/elite” like our neighbors. That is the crux we are facing.

    Programs in the ACC (programs, not individual seasons):

    Duke and UNC: Very good/elite
    BC, Wake, State, MD, GT: Good/yearly NCAA expectations
    All the other ACC teams: Mediocre/hope to make NCAA once every 4-5 years

    I just dont think, if you look at the past 5 years, that you can define our program as “mediocre.” I agree that making the NCAA Tournament is not the “end-all, be-all” it once was, (btw, the field expanded to 64 teams in 1985) but I would venture that there are not more than 15-20 teams in America with a 5+ straight year of making the tournament. Mediocre to me is a team that makes the tournament once every 3-5 years. Every year is “pretty good”, and consistent Final 4, Top 10 is “elite”. I’d put 6-8 programs in the elite category: Duke, UCONN, UNC are clearly the 3 elite programs in America. Other programs go in and out of that “elite” category (Arizona, Michigan State, Kentucky come to mind).

    Yes, we should compare ourselves to our neighbors. We should have high standards. That was my point about sustained goodness vs occasional greatness. To me, in the past 5 years, Herb has put us on the sustained “goodness” level. Regular season wise, about what V did at NC State. Occasional greatness though has not happend with Herb, while it did with V on at least 3-4 different occassions. That latter category is what both Sloan and V did. They had losing records, very poor records, against UNC, but the occassional greatness and “enough” wins vs UNC made it worthwhile.

    Clearly, just making the tournament is not enough. I’m not advocating that. However, what people forget, is that getting to the tournament was V’s main goal, and then survive and advance. He did that very well.

    Forgot about what each coach inherited. Just pick out Herb’s 5 best teams and V’s 5 best teams. Still have losing records for both against UNC, but clearly V had the ACCT and NCAAT success that Herb does not. To Herb’s credit, he is no longer compared to Les Robinson. He is now held to a higher standard, V and to some extent Sloan. Those standards are tougher. Will Herb and team ever meet them?

    If Herb and this team falter down the stretch, and dont have real post season success (ACCT champ or MINIMUM S16, probably need something better), then I think Herb enters next year in a dangerous position, despite a 5 year NCAA streak.

  7. Chapel Hill Fan's Take 02/23/2006 at 4:04 PM #

    For whatever the reason, UNC always seems to come out even kill against NC State. They seem to have the ability to place the rivalry aspect aside and treat it like a normal game. I think this, more than anything, is the reason for UNC’s success. I’m not sure whether to attribute this to caliber of talent, or coaching…probably a little bit of both.

  8. Mick 02/23/2006 at 4:08 PM #

    I believe many fans are interested in our team having at least similar success to what we achieved in the 80’s (1980-89). I also believe that those same fans would be happy with the 80’s results minus the NCAA title. As long as we felt there was a chance to win it. Go to 8 NCAA’s in 10 years. If you have a down year (rebuilding, etc) every four years or so, people can live with that. Win a couple ACC tourney’s over ten years. Sweet 16 4 or 5 times. Three runs beyond sweet 16. Finish first in the regular season twice in 10 years. Beat our neighbors 30-40% of the time. Rebound. That would be pretty solid success. Not breathtaking, but pretty good. I know, I know, Herb will get us there someday if we are patient. If you really believe that, then more power to you. BTW, I have some swampland in southern Florida I’d like to sell you.

  9. Trout 02/23/2006 at 4:09 PM #

    ^ opposite. NC State treats it as normal, while UNC steps it up.

  10. BJD95 02/23/2006 at 4:17 PM #

    Also, I may be wrong about this – but my overall impression is that Chuck is now held in lower regard (generally) than Sendek. And I don’t think it’s even debatable to say that Sendek could easily get another “lateral” job if he left NC State – but not Chuck Amato.

    But you are correct to note that just because Amato has underperformed, we haven’t magically “appreciated” what a “pretty good” thing we have in Sendek.

    Trout is making very good points to illustrate that. There are various levels of venom and anger, but the overall assessment and levels of disappointment and/or resignation are commonly felt by 90-95% of NC State fans.

  11. Chapel Hill Fan's Take 02/23/2006 at 4:18 PM #

    I think that if State and Carolina were to play 10 times…we would take the majority. However, if state and carolina both played BC 10 times each…I think state would come up being more. Bottom line is State does not play well against really quick athletic teams that can play perimeter D (such as Duke or Carolina). So…at this point I think it is fair to say that neither team is better than the other.

  12. Trout 02/23/2006 at 4:25 PM #

    ^ UNC has outscored NC State by 37 points this year. I think we can clearly say UNC is better than NC State.

  13. MurphNCSU 02/23/2006 at 4:28 PM #

    What era of basketball are we in? Arent the teams that routinely have success at a national level really quick athletic teams that play good D? Perhaps Herbs entire approach, recruiting, style, etc. are the wrong direction if you’re interested in success vs. “goodness”.

  14. Chapel Hill Fan's Take 02/23/2006 at 4:32 PM #

    ^^^^^^I agree with this. The reason Herb uses his “Princeton style offense� is because he does not have the athletes. Purely athletic teams will consistently beat a Princeton style offense. It is a system that will allow you to be good…but never great. The dynamics of NCAA hoops today are drastically different with superior athletes.

  15. WTNY 02/23/2006 at 4:42 PM #

    I think the reason he installed the modified “Princeton” offense was because we didn’t have the athletes.

    I think this is one of the puzzles. We have upgraded talent but have not upgraded our offense. I realize it has been tuned this year but perhaps it is time for another offensive overhaul.

  16. Rick 02/23/2006 at 4:42 PM #

    Trout makes good points.

    IMO, Sendek’s system is designed to give “consistent goodness” instead of “occasional greatness”.

    1) He is using an offense that has only succeeded at the Ivy League level.
    2) He recruits good basketball players that are not necessarily good atheletes.
    3) He tends to play very conservative (ie go into stall ball early).
    4) He wants his teams to keep an even emotiona keel.

    I think this means we will always be good. I also think it puts a ceiling on doing great.

  17. MurphNCSU 02/23/2006 at 4:43 PM #

    Herb doesn’t consistenly use what could be called a Princeton style offense, at least this year, anymore. I thought that once we got slightly better, slightly more athletic players that we might start making a transition to a more modern run/gun type offense. I will never unserstand hiring the “protege” of a coach like Pitino, and not getting any of the offensive experience you would expect that to entail. Truely, I think Herb doesn’t really understand the offensive side of the game and this affects his ability to recruit and adjust in-game. 5-star players are usually the NBA-type talent that require them to be quick, athletic. The way Herb coaches, why would these guys ever want to come to Raleigh?

  18. JohnPack 02/23/2006 at 4:45 PM #

    The risk associated with being a school like NCSU and trying to stick our noses into the “major talent pool” like UNC and Duke are always recruiting from is enormous.

    Imagine getting one or two “great” players every 3-4 years and a lot of above average players the rest of the time. Now imagine running an offense predicated on having these stars. Lastly imagine what would happen if one of our stars we succesfully recruited turned out to be Shavlik Randolph or Damien Wilkins. What then?

    Its really a trade off we are in. Until the program can get back to the level where we can succesfully recruit top 30 players EVERY YEAR, we are better off recruiting players who fit our system. Otherwise we end up like GT and have occasional spurts of greatness (no banners still) and a lot of really below average years.

    Something tells me State fans would complain either way.

  19. JohnPack 02/23/2006 at 4:47 PM #

    Murph,

    I have been in the locker room. I have worked with Herb. He understand the offensive side of the ball as well as any coach in the game today. He just chooses a particular style that he thinks will work with the type of players we have and recruit.

  20. JohnPack 02/23/2006 at 4:48 PM #

    The pg coming in two years from now will change the style Herb plays. Just wait.

  21. Rick 02/23/2006 at 4:51 PM #

    So instead of WTNY, it is WTNNY.
    SIGH

  22. Jim 02/23/2006 at 4:58 PM #

    ^ I hope you don’t actually think I am so stupid that I would heed a “wait for two years from now” line.

    Herb absolutely needs to win the ACCT this year or make the Final 8 or better. Anything less than that will force me to conclude that this “system” he runs tops out with what we got this year. Can we ever expect to have more veteran talent to run this prevent offense thing?

    This year was set up to be a breakthrough year. If this was just an “average” year in the player cycle I wouldn’t feel this way. But because everything should have come together this year and all it produced was 3rd place ACC, Sweet 16 (this is all assuming that’s all we do), I think the team/program needed to be better this year. That veteran team needed to be ready to play last night, or at least wake up and make a f’ing run at some point.

    Given all that, this is a “high water mark” year. IMO we should do better in high water mark years and we need to do whatever we need to do to get a system in here that can have a higher “top out.”

    Now, if we win the ACCT and/or make the 8, we have an accomplishment fitting a high water mark year. And some may rip me because those expectations are too low, and I can respect thier opinion. But I digress.

    The game last night basically removed the ACC regular season from hitting any accomplishment worthy of a high water mark. I don’t care what anyone says, the UNC-CH games mean a lot more (and should) than other ACC games. That’s just the way it is. Had we gone 13-3 or 14-2 and at least split with the UNC I could live with less postseason success this year.

    And the last thing I want to hear right now from Fowler or any TV a-holes is patronizing shit about how we should be happy with what we have, it takes time, blah, blah, f’ing blah. Time to build is now a non-issue. Whatever was going to be built has been built. And I think NC State can and should expect a ACCT championship and/or a Final 8 and/or a win over UNC every once in a while. Call me a dreamer.

  23. class of '74 02/23/2006 at 4:59 PM #

    Another aspect to this is everyone has a pattern or history of mining areas for talent. Case was Indiana, Sloan was NC and DC, V was NY but show me a pattern with Herb. I do think he’s beginning to get looks at the top 50 type talent but I don’t see a region or particular area he’s consistently getting players.

  24. MurphNCSU 02/23/2006 at 5:03 PM #

    John,

    Shouldn’t a great coach assess his talent each year and build it’s style from there and then, I don’t know, maybe even coach those players to run a system as best they can. Herb chooses to run a style of offense that turns away the players who might be able to run a more athletic style. Your describing a self-fulfilling vicous cycle.

    As for GT, do honestly believe that if Jack hadn’t left last year we wouldn’t be 0-2 against them this year? Same with WF and Paul. The difficulty which some of the better coaches in the conference are dealing with is the fact that they actually recruit players with NBA talent.

  25. Trout 02/23/2006 at 5:03 PM #

    “1) He is using an offense that has only succeeded at the Ivy League level.”

    I know West Virginia uses an offense very similiar to ours, and they made the Final 8 last year, and led the Big East for 2/3rds of this season. They are other teams that run a variation as well.

    I would say the offense has succeeded in the ACC. It has not won titles, but it has won more games than it has lost. Again, sustained vs great.

1 … 3 4 5 6 7

Leave a Reply