UNC Hoops Breaks Recruiting Rules (Updated 10:45 am)

You will want to scroll down to see the article andread the quotes to provide you a backdrop before reading our commentary.

Some of our historians may want to chime in here…but we think that it is important to note a similar historical parallel to this situation that will turn your stomach when you consider the lack of consistency of how the NCAA treats its member institutions.

In 1971/1972, UNC-CH Head Basketball Coach Dean Smith was responsible for reporting NC State to the NCAA because David Thompson – who was already committed to play at NC State – participated in an informal pick-up basketball game on State’s campus that included assistant basketball coach, Eddie Biedenbach. Smith and the NCAA interpreted the game as a ‘tryout’ – despite the fact that Thompson was already enrolling in NC State. The violations led to probation that excluded State from the NCAA Tournament for the 1972-1973 season. The Wolfpack dominated the 1972-73 season sitting at or near the top of the polls all season and finished undefeated with a 28-0 record. The same core team proceeded to win the 1974 National Championship with only one loss (to UCLA) on their resume.

Obviously, ^the Wolfpack’s violation related to a ‘recruit’ that was already committed to NC State (and may have already been ENROLLED at the time) is SIGNIFICANTLY LESS severe than the use of former players to ‘(use) different ways to try and persuade (him) to go there’ (by his own words). We can’t wait to see the Carolina Basketball program brough to its knees with similar probation for much worse behavior. (sarcasm)

Of course, there is NOTHING NEW to this practice in Chapel Hill. Quite frankly, we’re surprised that it is even an issue in light of the years of behavior that the local media and NCAA has chosen to ignore. For example, in the early 1990s highly-recruited high school basketball player, Jerry Stackhouse, openly admitted that Michael Jordan made phone calls – some during dead periods – to the Kinson star that played a significant role in his selection of going to UNC. No matter how you feel about the appropriateness of the rules, the NCAA has always forbidden such recruiting practices by anyone who is not a designated recruiting member of a school’s basketball program. Alums can inadvertently ‘bump into’ players when they happen to be on campus at the same time; but they cannot engage in activities to recruit the player to campus.

CHAPEL HILL – North Carolina is conducting a review to determine whether NCAA rules were broken during a basketball recruit’s campus visit last weekend.

Guard Iman Shumpert of Oak Park, Ill., told the Observer he spoke with and played pickup basketball against NBA players Raymond Felton, Sean May and Marvin Williams during his official visit. All three played for North Carolina’s 2005 NCAA championship team.

“They were just using different ways to try and persuade me to go there, especially Sean May,” Shumpert told the InsideCarolina.com Web site, whose report led to UNC’s review. The Web site is not affiliated with the university.

About StateFans

'StateFansNation' is the shared profile used by any/all of the dozen or so authors that contribute to the blog. You may not always agree with us, but you will have little doubt about where we stand on most issues. Please follow us on Twitter and FaceBook

Basketball Recruiting General NCS Basketball

59 Responses to UNC Hoops Breaks Recruiting Rules (Updated 10:45 am)

  1. bigTHEW 09/20/2007 at 8:46 AM #

    I am more shocked that this was even reported in the N&O

  2. packplantpath 09/20/2007 at 8:57 AM #

    Hmmm, seems shockingly familiar. A pickup game you say, with a recruit no less. Could this be the ghost of David Thompson? I think a ban from posts-eason play would be about right, what about you?

    Oh, wait, what’s that? This is not NCSU, it’s UNC? Uhh, Nevermind.

  3. Par Shooter 09/20/2007 at 8:58 AM #

    Is this significantly different from the situation with DT and the pickup game in the early-70’s that possibly cost us a national championship in 73? Well aside from the obvious difference in the guilty party. I seem to recall that we had a coach playing in the pickup game rather than just “representatives” but that seems like semantics. Same basic offense.

    The idea that May and Williams are “students” since they are enrolled in a class and are therefore allowed to actively recruit for unc-ch is criminal. Talk about playing fast and loose with the rules. Honestly, I don’t think there is a bigger hypocrite in the college game today than roy williams.

  4. Rick 09/20/2007 at 8:59 AM #

    You think anything will come of this? There is no way the NCAA hits the golden child.

  5. coppertop 09/20/2007 at 9:01 AM #

    I predict a slap on the wrist, maybe a fine or public apology but thats about it. No way the ACC lets them take a hit that they deserve.

  6. Wolf Dog 09/20/2007 at 9:06 AM #

    I agree about the shock that it made the N&O but since the article is on front page of sports section in Charlotte Observer they probably felt they had to run the story. Reason it got out is the web site inside carolina posted the recuits comments about his visit and playing b-ball with Felton, Maye, and Williams on thier web site. Whoops! Maye and Williams are enrolled in classes at UNC. So they may be able to talk to a recruit the same as a student. Certainly UNC walking a fine line here but UNC been haivng former players talk to recruits for years and playing pick up ball with them. The slap on the wrist to UNC may come in the form that Felton was involved since he is not enrolled at UNC. But I don’t think UNC gets anymore than a slap on the wrist and at this point UNC is admitting no wrong doing. Now if were Clemson, the NCAA’s whipping boy, the hammer would fall. Also remember a pick up game at NCSU back in the 70’s involving David Thompson got us on probation for a year and no NCAA tournament.

  7. Wolf Dog 09/20/2007 at 9:20 AM #

    Par shooter: The difference is with DT an assistant coach was involved. As far as Roy Williams or any other coach, don’t think they are not going to use former players especially NBA players to lure recruits if possible. For the record I don’t think Felton or Maye would be purposely trying to do anything wrong. I know the Bobcat employees and staff respect and like Felton and Maye both appear to be good guys and I give Roy Williams some credit for installing some good guidance in these young men plus it a big statement that both on campus finishing up their degrees. And what I like the most about Williams is he respects the hell out of Sydney Lowe’s coaching and recruiting ability. Plus we all need to remember Williams doesn’t need to cheat to recruit top talent.

  8. noah 09/20/2007 at 9:29 AM #

    There was some other stuff involving the NC State basketball camp with DT as well. You can read the report on the major infractions database at the NCAA’s web site.

    Regarding UNC, this should not be enough to get UNC on probation. The NCAA doesn’t put people on probation anymore unless bags of money, hookers, and satanic rituals are involved.

    However, it might be enough to bar them from being involved with this kid. Michigan got in trouble a couple of years ago for taking a kid off campus to a party during his visit. The recruit was Mateen Cleaves and it’s why he ended up at Mich. State.

  9. highonlowe 09/20/2007 at 9:32 AM #

    You miss the point Wolf Dog. May and Williams are enrolled in classes, so they’re allowed to talk to recruits just like any other student, but Felton is not a student at UNC, therefor he is prohibited from serving as a representative of UNC’s athletics interests and should not be making making recruiting contacts. The loophole here is that NCAA rules allow for “unavoidable incidental contact” involving “normal civility.”
    Spin machine engage.

  10. crackdog 09/20/2007 at 9:32 AM #

    This morning, Joe Ovies cracked “Roy Williams ought to be in the hall of fame for Secondary Violations”. Funny stuff. They’ve seemed to have a few of them since Roy got there, and I know he had a few at Kansas.

  11. SuperStuff 09/20/2007 at 9:40 AM #

    If the NCAA didn’t do anything about Joseph Forte’s mom getting a job with the Sporting Agency Octagon. No way they will do anything to UNC-CH on this.

    I wish some disgruntled team manager would get someone to write a book about UNC-CH basketball. Sorry daydreaming….

  12. Wolf Dog 09/20/2007 at 9:51 AM #

    I thought I stated that Highon Lowe, anyway. UNC only had to sit Felton for one game which was a self imposed infraction that the NCAA agreed with for that infraction. Forte and his mother is a great example. How about McCants and his mom and the Chapel Hill apartment. I could quit my job and afford to move to Chapel Hill and get an apartment just to watch my son while he getting over his “mystery illness”, how about you? Bunting and UNC paid no price that I recall for violations surronding the Shrine Bowl and recruits. But like someone stated NCAA not going to do anything.

  13. newt 09/20/2007 at 9:57 AM #

    I don’t think UNC should be punished for this and I don’t think this type of interaction should be against the rules. NC State should not be punished either in a couple of years when Costner and Hickson are NBA/NC State students singing Lowe’s praises in pick up games.

    The problem is that 1 – there are too many NCAA rules and they are too ambiguous, which leads to 2 – they are not consistently enforced.

    The rules should be as simple as 1 – no cash or material gifts for committing or playing 2 – no performance enhancing drugs and 3 – no gambling or point shaving.

    I don’t really get the limitations on personal contact, etc.

  14. wolfonthehill 09/20/2007 at 10:05 AM #

    ^ Doesn’t matter what the rules SHOULD be. Only matters what the rules are, and whether member institutions follow those rules. The major problem is the fact that rules are selectively enforced, depending on which institution commits the infraction.

  15. Wolf Dog 09/20/2007 at 10:17 AM #

    Bassically in this case UNC claiming the rules contradict themselves. NCAA Rule 13.02.3.1 states a representative of Athletic interests cannot engage recruits. Former players fall under that category. Yet another rule states students can engage recruits so UNC claiming Williams and Maye fall under that rule since they are students. Yet another NCAA rule allows for “unavoidable incidental contact” involving “normal civility” and UNC currently investagating if that is just the case with Felton.

  16. PackMan97 09/20/2007 at 10:21 AM #

    “Bunting and UNC paid no price that I recall for violations surronding the Shrine Bowl and recruits.”

    There are so many rules that EVERY program is going to break some rules. I’m sure NC State reports violations all the time.

    The Shrine Bowl violations were of a “technical” nature and certainly did not give UNC-CH a competetive advantage. IIRC, you can only watch a recruit in two or three combines/bowl games. The two or three kids in question were not originally slated to play in the game or attend someplace and as such the UNC-CH coaches were in a technical violation. They reported it and the NCAA said, ok, thanks.

    I think with many of these “very minor” violations, the NCAA just wants to know that you are counting visits and monitoring things and as soon as you notice you aren’t in compliance, you report the offense. Of course, if you have multiple offenses every week, they may take a closer look 🙂

  17. beowolf 09/20/2007 at 10:22 AM #

    This has me conflicted:

    1. I would absolutely love to see UNC get bent over and drilled by the NCAA, even for a niggling little infraction that doesn’t deserve any attention, because (a) they’ve skated by with nary a whisper from the NCAA on serious problems (from the Forte/Hightower stuff to all the things in LT’s book) and (b) we’ve gotten bent over and drilled by the NCAA for those niggling infractions.

    2. I would hate the NCAA exerting its ridiculous power arbitrarily again to punish a school for a niggling little infraction.

  18. newt 09/20/2007 at 10:50 AM #

    So a graduate assistant on the basketball team can play pick-up ball with recruits because he’s a student? Awesome!

  19. nycfan 09/20/2007 at 11:30 AM #

    Regarding the probation for Thompson, I thought I read in an SI piece on DT some years ago that the problem was that he got moved on campus and began working out with a coach in the summer before he was allowed to do so under the rules then (rules have changed now and most hoops players enroll in summer school the summer before their freshman year). Also, I’m pretty certain there is no record or proof that Dean Smith turned State in; I think that Norm Sloan believes that and maybe it is true, but you present it as gospel, which I don’t think is accurate.

    I’ve always wondered how it works to have pick-up games with former players when recruits visit; UNC should be more careful with the interactions between the non-student UNC pros since that is obviously against the rules.

    Sounds like UNC is handling it properly on the back-end (investigating/self-reporting), but knowing these rules exist, if you want to dazzle a recruit with your NBA stars, you ought to have it VERY clear with those guys that they can be present, but do no more than tip their hat to the recruit. I would have assumed this was clear to everyone, but we’ll see, I guess.

  20. LRM 09/20/2007 at 11:35 AM #

    I wouldn’t wait around for anything to come of this.

  21. beowolf 09/20/2007 at 11:41 AM #

    I’m sure the “investigating/self-reporting” aspect will be like it was with the Forte/Hightower thing: Hey, Dean called from his office in the Smith Center where he does, um … legitimate work — anyway, he called and said everything’s copacetic. Let’s close the books on this one. Good work, gentlemen.

  22. noah 09/20/2007 at 11:48 AM #

    If you want to know what happened in the DT case, you dont have to speculate. It’s online. Read the report.

  23. JimValvano 09/20/2007 at 11:58 AM #

    First of all I want to go on the record as saying:

    The NCAA needs to review its rules and make some changes. The fact that a pickup basketball game is illegal is ridiculous. The only way that it is a problem is if the school hasn’t already offered a scholarship. I also feel the Michael Jordan incident with Stackhouse is crazy. Schools should be allowed to recruit players with all available resources (which includes former players), barring money or anything having to do with money. Players and their family members shouldn’t be put into houses or jobs or given cash or gifts. This incident should be used to bring to the forefront the inadequacy of the current rules. While preserving the purity of the college game is of the utmost importance, we all have to admit that the legislative body of the NCAA takes it a bit too far.

    With that said…the TARHOLES are in violation of the current rules (ridiculous or not) and should have to face the punishment which has been historically handed down for similar rules violations.

  24. JimValvano 09/20/2007 at 12:03 PM #

    I mean…how hard is it to uphold a precedent?

  25. Texpack 09/20/2007 at 12:11 PM #

    I think the reason the NCAA limits contact with recruits is to try to keep the recruiting process from being 24/7 in terms of the recruits having to deal with “representatives of the university’s athletic interests.”

    David Thompson said flat out in his book that UNC-CH turned them in to the NCAA. The NCAA investigator was Bill Gutheridge’s college roommate.

Leave a Reply