Re: Haith…The ACC Problem?

You really need to read the previous entry from earlier today before reading my comments.

The Atlantic Coast Conference has traditionally had a “gentlemen’s agreement” that league members would not poach coaches from each other’s programs. The conference office has traditionally played a role in maintaining order around this issue. Therefore, SFN can foresee the ACC playing a negative role in NC State’s potential conversations with Burlington native, Frank Haith.

The following are some comments about this:

* While I understand the implications of this old-boy way of doing things, it is time for the Atlantic Coast Conference to enter the modern-ages. The ACC once had seven teams; the conference now has twelve. Things change ;and the “old way of doing things rules” should have evolved with them.

* Any hurdle that the conference office would raise during a potential Frank Haith hiring would be grossly hypocritcal. By expanding in the manner that the conference did a few years ago, the conference implicitly and explicitly admitted that some schools are more “football-centric” and some are more “basketball-centric”. If that wasn’t the case, then why didn’t the ACC try to land Kentucky, Louisville, and Syracuse? (hyperbole folks, you get the picture)

* By their actions and comments, the conference both acknowledges and and has created an obvious caste system amongst its members — some schools are obvious football powers and some schools are obvious basketball powers. The conference’s creation and support of such an imbalance means that they should be very careful with immobilizing coaches who succeed and therefore want to improve their situation.

* Since the ACC acknowledges this, then why would they choose to send such a negative message to the rest of the country regarding future employment in the conference? Limiting coaches’ careers will only serve to HURT the ACC by making jobs like Miami, Clemson, Florida State, and Virginia Tech less attractive to future coaches contemplating a move into the conference . It is called the free market.

* Why would an “up-and-comer” ever choose one of these schools if they may potentially be considered for a job at State, Carolina, Duke or Maryland? Why would the ACC make decisions that would effectively discourage the future migration of great coaches to the lower-tiered basketball schools? How does impairing the ability to attract top talent to the conference (especially to the weaker programs) serve the ACC’s supposed goal to protect its members and act in everyone’s best interest?

* Let’s play a hypothetical game — What if Gregg Marshall at Winthrop knew that he was going to be a candidate for a hypothetical “dream job” at Duke in five years? What if he was on the top of the list at Miami or Clemson or VPI? Why would he want to come to one of those ACC schools to coach if it would impair his ability to better himself? Is the ACC now “better off” by not helping the weaker schools get the best talent that they can get (for whatever time that they can retain them in the free-market?

* Is the ACC not better off because of Frank Haith’s presence at Miami the last couple of years? Would Haith have ever gone to Miami if he had been told that he was going to have the chance to take the NC State job in the future? Again, how is limiting the basic principals of the free market good for the ACC?

* The ACC needs to make sure that all schools have the freedom to hire the best person for the job to support those programs. This is what is best for the conference! Not protectionism that prices the conference out of the free market for talent!!

* Look at how the SEC benefited when Tommy Tuberville made a move from Ole Miss to an obviously stronger football program at Auburn, and when Tubby Smith left Georgia for the national powerhouse of Kentucky. The alternative, of course, would have been for Tuberville and Smith leave the conference. How is that a good thing for the SEC? Would the SEC rather have had Tuberville and Smith LEAVE and therefore not generate the National Championships for the conference that they ultimately won at their NEW programs? What if Tubby had to move on to NC State and Tuberville to Georgia Tech to take the “next steps” in their career? How would the SEC have liked that?

* Ten years ago, Rick Barnes was the head coach of Clemson and wanted the NC State job. Nobody had the guts to stand up and do what was right for NC State. The ACC’s “gentlemen’s agreement” of not poaching ultimately impaired NC State’s ability & willingness to pursue Barnes and impaired Barnes’ ability to improve his career standing. Ultimately, Barnes’ career was limited and he choose to ride out of the conference to another job. How did that work out for everyone? Are you telling me that the ACC is better off without Rick Barnes the last decade? In the end, the conference ultimately lost a rising coaching star while simultaneously dooming NC State to another ten years in the desert. Clemson lost. NC State lost. How was this a good thing for the ACC?

* We hope/expect NC State to respectively tell the ACC to shove it IF Frank Haith is deemed “the guy”. We aren’t endorsing Frank Haith as “the guy”; but if that is who the administration chooses to pursue, then they should be allowed to work in the free market. We will with-hold more comments here until we have to make them.

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83 Responses to Re: Haith…The ACC Problem?

  1. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 2:33 PM #

    Are we able to tell the ACC to shove it? Is it worth it?

  2. WPnation 04/13/2006 at 2:38 PM #

    Not going to happen. As much as SFN would love it too. Frank Haith is not going to be the guy. Someone stated earlier that their sources said Haith was below Marshall(take that for what its worth), but if this is true then I believe this shows that the “gentlemens” agreement is at play. Cause in no way should a community college coach be higher on the list than an ACC coach in less otherwise. Go get PJ at least it would make national news, any other of these lesser knowns will make page 6 of the sports pages……..not many recruits read that far into the paper.

  3. J-wolf 04/13/2006 at 2:39 PM #

    It would be interesting to see what happened if we did, but I personally would not suggest it. We’re already considered one of the “black sheep” of the ACC, and to throw it into the face of the commission wouldn’t help anybody. That’s just my opinion, though.

  4. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 2:41 PM #

    SFN, are you “telling” us that Frank is our man?

    What about Bobby Ross? Did he go from Maryland to GT?, or was he in the pros inbetween that? Just asking

    SFN: Absolutely NOT telling you that Frank is the man. Just talking about issues.

  5. MTDPack 04/13/2006 at 2:42 PM #

    Jeff-
    I posted this on the other thread as well… Kudos to you & SFN staff for fantastic job the last few weeks. Your warming to Haith is disconcerting to me, as I feel if you’re warming to the idea, then that must be where you think we’re headed. I can live with Haith, but I hope, as you say he is the “floorâ€? and we have exhausted all other reasonable options. Gillespie is the one.

  6. PackPride83 04/13/2006 at 2:50 PM #

    While I don’t necessarily disagree with your ultimate opinion on this… I cannot support your actual argument. It sounds like you are arguing that the ACC should, in essence, not only allow the “caste system” to exist, but should actually encourage it to continue by allowing the ‘good’ basketball coaches to go to the ‘good’ basketball schools. Why waste a ‘good’ basketball coach at a football school. I think this argument needs work because my response to it, from an ACC perspective, would be that we would discourage it in order to eliminate the caste system that seems to exist.

  7. jwolf 04/13/2006 at 2:51 PM #

    I heard the same thing but only on Charlotte Sports Talk radio. They said that he drops more F bombs than Coach K and his wife combined and that he wants nothing to do with anybody else but his team during their time before during and after games. I for one wouldn’t have a problem with this if he wins. Don’t worry about making me happy by pumping my head up, just win the games and I will be plenty happy.

  8. Wolf-in Around 04/13/2006 at 2:54 PM #

    I say history is nice and would have could have is nice to…but at the end of the day…ALL of us want a Great coach…yes you can go with the up and coming coach…gosh no better up and coming coach then coach K was and I remember that he struggled at the start and I guess this is my point…keep trying for one of the top thirty…the learning curve is tough in the NCAA but even more so in the ACC. We have plenty of time if you remember that it is easier to hire than fire or push out a bad fit. We have the tradition and we have the money and soon we will have a coach we all can support.

  9. Dan 04/13/2006 at 2:57 PM #

    One item of concern here is the report that Fred Barakat, an ACC official, has been been helping with the search. If this is true, he has had plenty of opportunity to pursuade Folwer to stay away from Haith.

    From the ACC’s perspective, I get one argument. We all invited Miami in. Now we steal their coach?

    My answer: Yes. Sorry. Someone just stole ours.

    One legitimate area of concern is players transferring with conference. Of course, no school would ever release a kid do that, and its the school that has control. However, once certain niceties start to break down, I wonder how many official contacts could made to players already playing in the ACC.

    Not that I have an opinion on this. Just food for thought.

    Personally, I want Frank Haith.

  10. BlakeJohns 04/13/2006 at 2:57 PM #

    I don’t think the league would be concerned about an intra-league move unless the losing school made a BIG deal about it and went to the league office. Then, the league would probably just serve as mediator.

    The big issue on making this move is with the specific parties. Namely, Lee Fowler, Frank Haith and NCSU. They would be burning a bridge of sorts that they may or may not need in the future.

    I was close to the Tuberville move from Ole Miss to Auburn as a disinterested party. It was not real clean. Tuberville received death threats. Ole Miss people still consider it as deceitful, and they let Auburn know about it every year.

    So I think it comes to how much is the school willing to bite-off to get a coach within league…Having said that, I still don’t think Haith is up to the challenge.

  11. VaWolf82 04/13/2006 at 3:02 PM #

    It sounds to me like some people need to either calm down or grow up. No one here is on the selection committee or has a vote, we’re just talking about the options for State’s next coach.

    Anyone that has read this blog through the season should know that none of the authors on this site blindly support State’s adminstration. We speak up when we think that they are right and also speak up when we think that they are wrong. Anyone who thinks that the admin here is trying to make everyone adhere to the “company line”, just doesn’t have a clue.

    I don’t know for a fact, but I suspect that the reason several ex-BB players from State were ruled out-of-bounds is because there are none that can be considered legitimate candidates. At least two names frequently thrown around don’t have degrees and thus can not be considered. Several others have not had suffiicient success to warrant consideraton. It serves no purpose to discuss candidates that multiple sources indicate have absolutely no chance at this time.

    From a personal view point, I don’t care who you think should be State’s next coach. What I want to read is WHY you think a candidate should be State’s next coach and WHY you think that coach would be interested in coming to State. But I’m not interested in reading your exact same post on every new entry.

  12. hoop 04/13/2006 at 3:05 PM #

    What’s to stop Fowler from at least extending the courtesy of requesting to speak with Haith through Miami? If they say yes, then it’s clean. Would they say yes?

  13. BlakeJohns 04/13/2006 at 3:09 PM #

    I see nothing that tells me Haith can handle the job, other than being a solid assistant coach. (Of course, so was Sendek, Doherty, Quin Snyder, etc., etc.) He has little experience with mediocre results. He’s never even coached a single NCAA game! You say Haith has great recruiting ability? If that’s true, then Sendek must be Hall of Fame. 2006 ACC signing class rankings according to 2 different services are…

    Rivals:
    (1) – North Carolina
    (2) – Georgia Tech
    (3) – Duke
    (4) – FSU
    (5) – Maryland
    (6) – Wake
    (7) – NCSU (w/Sendek, RIP)
    (8) – Miami (w/Haith)

    College Sports:
    (1) – North Carolina
    (2) – Georgia Tech
    (3) – Duke
    (4) – Wake Forrest
    (5) – FSU
    (6) – Maryland
    (7) – NCSU (w/Sendek, RIP)
    (8) – Virginia
    (9) – Miami (w/Haith)

    And don’t tell me it’s hard to get recruits into Miami because of lack of tradition. Have you ever been to Miami? With the ACC, and the location, and the plethora of HS ballers in-state, it should be pretty easy to lure teenage boys into Miami.

  14. StateFans 04/13/2006 at 3:18 PM #

    At what part of this friggin entry did it look like we wanted to hear about some of your thoughts on Karl Hobbs, Gregg Marshall, or other coaches?

    Seriously. What is their relevance to this entry?

    There are tons of entries on this blog that would be relevant to post these thoughts (unfortunately, the last coaching entry became a conversation about Herb’s offense and Adam Harrington).

    Please read this…and please try to keep your comments focued on the topic at hand.

    You know…you don’t have to make a comment on every single entry.

  15. PackPride83 04/13/2006 at 3:23 PM #

    Uh… Hoop: I think Adam’s point was that essentially Beilein is pretty much the same as Sendek. In other words we would be replacing Sendek with a clone…

    guess you didn’t catch that one, huh?

  16. SWEETS 04/13/2006 at 3:29 PM #

    He is not our Man.

  17. PittsburghPackFan 04/13/2006 at 3:29 PM #

    I think State could do worse than Haith. However, I think they will adhere to the “Gentleman’s agreement” and not lure him there, IF he’s interested.

    Did someone say Haith has expressed interest?

  18. hoop 04/13/2006 at 3:33 PM #

    Thanks for the clarificaiton on , missed that one. 🙂

  19. goobnav 04/13/2006 at 3:33 PM #

    Good point StateFans, stick to the topic, limitations on coaching choices should be made by the schools making their decisions not some BS agreement that originated in the halls of some back door Chapel Hole meeting room to prevent them from getting stomped like the Smurfs they are. Imagine if that decision to go after Barnes in ’96 had happened this topic would not be issue

  20. Pack92 04/13/2006 at 3:34 PM #

    Would that not be a load of crap? We lose Barnes to Texas and the Big 12 because we were stupid enough to have a unx grad as AD. Now we lose out on Haith because of a “gentleman’s agreement”? Is there anybody we CAN talk to?

  21. goobnav 04/13/2006 at 3:40 PM #

    My point exactly, nobody should be off limits b/c of some inconference bullying. Miami may be the new kids on the block but, they joined the ACC to get that football money here. They’ll have to deal with the open market just like State has and still has to deal.

  22. 74brickyard83 04/13/2006 at 3:42 PM #

    “We hope/expect NC State to respectively tell the ACC to shove it if Frank Haith is the guy.” – SFN

    What history is there of us standing up to the ACC? I fully understand the “hope” part of the statement but I would strikethru “expect”. As a diehard State fan I expect to keep having my face rubbed in crap, but I hope it starts tasting better.

  23. forst8 04/13/2006 at 3:43 PM #

    SFN: I appreciate you trying to keep people on topic and I think you are doing a great job. Don’t worry about hot heads who can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. If they want to leave the site over something so minor then we are probably better off without their comments.

  24. cornellpackfan 04/13/2006 at 3:48 PM #

    why even worry about some gentleman’s agreement…we can do better than haith. Just because he is a coach that shares some anti-tarheel sentiment, is that enough of a reason to go after him. I mean you work for who is paying you and if you don’t work hard enough you are fired. Anyone that NCSU plugs into this position will have to dislike UNC and want to beat them, that is part of the job and the territory. We should not just settle for Coach Haith just b/c our first few options seem to be exhausted and b/c he is a coach that seems to want to be here from some indications. We need to get the best coach available and I think that we are selling ourselves short b/c there are not only better recruiters, but also better bench coaches in the country that still should be viable options.

  25. Dan 04/13/2006 at 3:50 PM #

    Can the admin here restate the first of rule of NC State coaching?

    The one about no UNC or Duke staples (including Dawkins) being at NC State.

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