Re: Haith…The ACC Problem?

You really need to read the previous entry from earlier today before reading my comments.

The Atlantic Coast Conference has traditionally had a “gentlemen’s agreement” that league members would not poach coaches from each other’s programs. The conference office has traditionally played a role in maintaining order around this issue. Therefore, SFN can foresee the ACC playing a negative role in NC State’s potential conversations with Burlington native, Frank Haith.

The following are some comments about this:

* While I understand the implications of this old-boy way of doing things, it is time for the Atlantic Coast Conference to enter the modern-ages. The ACC once had seven teams; the conference now has twelve. Things change ;and the “old way of doing things rules” should have evolved with them.

* Any hurdle that the conference office would raise during a potential Frank Haith hiring would be grossly hypocritcal. By expanding in the manner that the conference did a few years ago, the conference implicitly and explicitly admitted that some schools are more “football-centric” and some are more “basketball-centric”. If that wasn’t the case, then why didn’t the ACC try to land Kentucky, Louisville, and Syracuse? (hyperbole folks, you get the picture)

* By their actions and comments, the conference both acknowledges and and has created an obvious caste system amongst its members — some schools are obvious football powers and some schools are obvious basketball powers. The conference’s creation and support of such an imbalance means that they should be very careful with immobilizing coaches who succeed and therefore want to improve their situation.

* Since the ACC acknowledges this, then why would they choose to send such a negative message to the rest of the country regarding future employment in the conference? Limiting coaches’ careers will only serve to HURT the ACC by making jobs like Miami, Clemson, Florida State, and Virginia Tech less attractive to future coaches contemplating a move into the conference . It is called the free market.

* Why would an “up-and-comer” ever choose one of these schools if they may potentially be considered for a job at State, Carolina, Duke or Maryland? Why would the ACC make decisions that would effectively discourage the future migration of great coaches to the lower-tiered basketball schools? How does impairing the ability to attract top talent to the conference (especially to the weaker programs) serve the ACC’s supposed goal to protect its members and act in everyone’s best interest?

* Let’s play a hypothetical game — What if Gregg Marshall at Winthrop knew that he was going to be a candidate for a hypothetical “dream job” at Duke in five years? What if he was on the top of the list at Miami or Clemson or VPI? Why would he want to come to one of those ACC schools to coach if it would impair his ability to better himself? Is the ACC now “better off” by not helping the weaker schools get the best talent that they can get (for whatever time that they can retain them in the free-market?

* Is the ACC not better off because of Frank Haith’s presence at Miami the last couple of years? Would Haith have ever gone to Miami if he had been told that he was going to have the chance to take the NC State job in the future? Again, how is limiting the basic principals of the free market good for the ACC?

* The ACC needs to make sure that all schools have the freedom to hire the best person for the job to support those programs. This is what is best for the conference! Not protectionism that prices the conference out of the free market for talent!!

* Look at how the SEC benefited when Tommy Tuberville made a move from Ole Miss to an obviously stronger football program at Auburn, and when Tubby Smith left Georgia for the national powerhouse of Kentucky. The alternative, of course, would have been for Tuberville and Smith leave the conference. How is that a good thing for the SEC? Would the SEC rather have had Tuberville and Smith LEAVE and therefore not generate the National Championships for the conference that they ultimately won at their NEW programs? What if Tubby had to move on to NC State and Tuberville to Georgia Tech to take the “next steps” in their career? How would the SEC have liked that?

* Ten years ago, Rick Barnes was the head coach of Clemson and wanted the NC State job. Nobody had the guts to stand up and do what was right for NC State. The ACC’s “gentlemen’s agreement” of not poaching ultimately impaired NC State’s ability & willingness to pursue Barnes and impaired Barnes’ ability to improve his career standing. Ultimately, Barnes’ career was limited and he choose to ride out of the conference to another job. How did that work out for everyone? Are you telling me that the ACC is better off without Rick Barnes the last decade? In the end, the conference ultimately lost a rising coaching star while simultaneously dooming NC State to another ten years in the desert. Clemson lost. NC State lost. How was this a good thing for the ACC?

* We hope/expect NC State to respectively tell the ACC to shove it IF Frank Haith is deemed “the guy”. We aren’t endorsing Frank Haith as “the guy”; but if that is who the administration chooses to pursue, then they should be allowed to work in the free market. We will with-hold more comments here until we have to make them.

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83 Responses to Re: Haith…The ACC Problem?

  1. Wxwolf 04/13/2006 at 7:03 PM #

    I’m actually in College Station interviewing for a faculty position at A&M today and tomorrow. Should I try and track Gillespie down? Serously though, everyone I talked to here at A&M can’t stop raving about their basketball coach.

    I’ll keep an eye out for any sightings of Lee Fowler 😉

  2. Pack92 04/13/2006 at 7:23 PM #

    Please don’t get me wrong, I think there are a number of extremely good coaches who just may not have alot to show for it right now. For the one’s who have something to show, I think Billy G ranks at or near the top of the second tier coaches we should consider. No one had EVER heard of V when he came!

  3. Wolfpack_34 04/13/2006 at 7:37 PM #

    Does anyone know how many ACC coaches have gone from one confrence school to another (if any)?

  4. Nate Johnson 04/13/2006 at 7:38 PM #

    Should I try and track Gillespie down? Serously though, everyone I talked to here at A&M can’t stop raving about their basketball coach.

    Yup. Especially after the futility of the few years prior to Coach G, Aggies are very happy with him. That said, if Coach Fran gets the football squad back into a BCS bowl, most of Aggieland will catch basketball amnesia.

    PS – If you get the faculty job at A&M, you won’t be the first — they hired a guy I worked with (loosely) a few years ago. We’ll have to touch base if you move to CS!

  5. Pack92 04/13/2006 at 8:01 PM #

    Right on about Roy but Dean himself went to beg him the second time and he was “family”. I hope no one from State would prostitute themselves that way and have to beg! Nate McMillan would fit the family part but I just do not think Nate will come.

    I just like Billy but doggone it I like Frank too. Where in the heck will this end?

  6. ncsu2007dad 04/13/2006 at 8:06 PM #

    Hey people…new to the group…

    Sure seems like Gillespie has a lot more to bring to the table than Haith.

  7. JTO 04/13/2006 at 8:12 PM #

    1) Gillespie – proven, can recruit and is loved by his current school 2) Haith – Can recruit and has strong NC ties 3) Brady – we are in back in the Les invitational.

  8. ncsu2007dad 04/13/2006 at 8:21 PM #

    Haith current committments for 2006-2007 = 3
    Gillespie current committments for 2006-2007 = 7

  9. doug74 04/13/2006 at 8:46 PM #

    I’m liking Haith more as time passes. Race shouldn’t be a factor but it is and I think it would be a plus.

  10. BJD95 04/13/2006 at 9:24 PM #

    Think about the “tiers” issue this way. Bear with me, because it involves several layers of hypotheticals. First, let’s imagine that Florida State needed a new football coach. Let’s also pretend that Chuck Amato has done a MUCH BETTER job here than anywhere else. Based on this imaginary impressive record, FSU wants Chuck, and the interest is reciprocal.

    Does anyone SERIOUSLY think the ACC would step in to thwart or discourage that deal? And do you think FSU would waste even ONE SECOND worrying about the feelings of its “conference brother?”

    Thus, it MUST work the same for us in basketball, IMHO. Sauce for the goose, and all that good crap.

  11. Bullins_2000 04/13/2006 at 10:08 PM #

    “lets face reality. We missed out on our big dogs looks like we will end up with a mutt.”

    That is just absurd, last I checked 64 teams enter the tournament every year and the same team , even Duke and Carolina dont win every year, so there are at least 64 coaches any given year who can recruit and coach well enough to win a championship.

  12. gotohellcarolina 04/13/2006 at 10:28 PM #

    Hey SFN,To your earlier point of doing the best you can with what you have.

    I love the site and defer to your right to police it, even up to censorship, in what I perceive as an effort to keep the discussion centered around a few coaches who fit or standards the best. I am not naive and have followed college basketball, and THE North Carolina State University in particular, for 28 years since I bawled my eyes out when Hawyeye and the Pack lost to Iowa in the tourney.

    Now Whitt has taken a program with no national exposure and limited regional exposure, and no real fanbase (they are the “Five” in Big Five Philly basketball) and actually turned them into winners. Not tournament winners but a team their league actually has to scout and compete against.

    Is he experienced enough? No. Is he a great recruiter? Who knows? His second class produced A-10 Rookie of the Year.

    Article from CSTV follows, Erase it if you will:

    FORDHAM Team Report

    By The Sports Xchange
    2/22/2005

    GETTING INSIDE

    With a couple weeks left in the regular season, it looks like a two-horse race for Atlantic 10 Coach of the Year honors between Fordham head coach Dereck Whittenburg and St. Joseph’s coach Phil Martelli.
    Both have surprised the so-called experts this winter. Martelli, of course, lost two first-round draft picks in Jameer Nelson and Delonte West from last year’s Elite Eight team, but has kept his team atop the A-10 East with an 11-1 mark.

    As impressive as Martelli’s work has been this winter, Whittenburg is still a legit candidate to win the hardware as the league’s 2004-05 Coach of the Year. Entering this season, Fordham’s all-time Atlantic 10 record was 31-113. Through their first 13 league games this season, the Rams have a 7-6 mark and are 11-13 overall. Whittenburg’s work hasn’t gone unnoticed, as it’s suddenly fashionable to wear maroon “Fordham Basketball” t-shirts on the school’s campus for the first time in eons.

    The freshmen-laden Rams, led by 6-8 Bryant Dunston (a five-time A-10 Rookie of the Week selection) and 6-3 guard Marcus Stout (whose shot from the deep corner with 2.7 seconds left beat Rhode Island on Feb. 20), are 9-3 this season on their homecourt and still have a decent chance to finish third in the A-10 East — much better than the fifth- or sixth-place finish that most pundits predicted.

  13. Bullins_2000 04/13/2006 at 10:35 PM #

    I too understand SFN’s desire to mediate the discussion but I am curious if someone form the SFN staff could chime in Why Haith is so good and Whittenburg is not to be discussed. why he would be classifed as

    “Should NOT be Discussed
    The following are names we don’t believe deserve the merit of discussion either because of their legitimacy of the search or because of they absurdity of a potential candidacy. (Any comments about any of these coaches will be deleted from the comments section)”

    It’s not as though he just popped onto the scene, he was also a assitant under many succesful coaches, I would assume he had something to do with that success also.

  14. scoots 04/13/2006 at 10:39 PM #

    Think about it this way. Billy Gillispie has been a Division I head coach for 4 years and, in that short time, he completely turned around 2 programs, first at UTEP & then TX A&M. In only 4 years, he’s been a finalist for NATIONAL coach of the year twice. I think this guy is definitely a rising star who’s not quite so well known…yet. Norm Sloan & Jimmy V had similar backgrounds at Citadel/Florida & Iona, respectively. But Gillispie has arguably accomplished more in a shorter period than either one of them did prior to coming to NCSU.

  15. gotohellcarolina 04/13/2006 at 10:43 PM #

    The primary fear I have of both Gillespie and Haith, is how they run their offenses. Haith’s guys sometimes looked like middle school sets with just two guys moving, and Gillespie runs the…….gulp……Princeton (patooooey).

  16. gotohellcarolina 04/13/2006 at 10:53 PM #

    He does, and the upside of that is he got a great spread motion type of team here with us. Which would mean two things. 1) immediate results 2)more naps in the upper deck of RBC.

  17. Nate Johnson 04/13/2006 at 10:56 PM #

    Doesn’t Gillespie run a Princeton offense?

    [ I posted most of this as a comment to an earlier entry. I hope the board admins will let me get away with replying here. –nsj ]

    Re: Gillispie

    A couple of things to point out on Coach G:

    – I hesitate to call it a “Princeton-styleâ€? offense, because it’s really not. However, it is often a slow-it-down, keep-it-close style, especially when playing “betterâ€? teams. (Example: They scored more than 90 only three times, but scored less than 70 in 15 games, including 7 of their last 10.)
    – Gillispie preaches strong defense. A&M forced 16 turnovers a game last year — good enough for second in Turnover Margin in the Bix XII.
    – A&M relies almost as much as State does on the 3, attempting 18 per game and shooting about 36% from beyond the arc.

    All of those said, I went to about half of their home schedule this year, and they’re a fun, scrappy bunch to watch. They reminded me a lot of what State looked like in Sendek’s early years, especially the dream run to the ACC finals in 1996. I suppose the big question there is whether Gillispie — assuming he can recruit outside of Texas — will recruit within this system or whether he will go out and find players who can play something more up-tempo.

  18. Howling Wolf 04/13/2006 at 11:03 PM #

    Case ran a motion offense and so did Les and Sloan.

    The Princeton is a motion offense. When run properly, it is exciting ball. It’s the running it properly that has been State’s problem. Everyone complains it’s boring. It’s only boring when the guys stand around the arc and play catch. Our guys wouldn’t run the offense with Herb. Why would they run it with Gillispie?

    BTW, until the last month of this season, Herb was know as a defense first guy.

  19. Bullins_2000 04/13/2006 at 11:06 PM #

    Theres a motion offense and a “spread motion” offense , I played in a motion offense in high school and we at least averaged in th 70’s. The goal was also to get closer to the basket not farther and shoot the 3

  20. Winston Wolf 04/13/2006 at 11:07 PM #

    I’m tired of the talk of the princeton offense. If we beat duke and carolina 90% of the time using the princeton offense, do you think that we would care about the offensive philosphy we used to beat them? Hell no!

    I think that Fowler (if he has not already done so) should contact Gillespie to gauge his interest, but I doubt that he would come. Let’s face it, Texas A&M has double the budget that we have. I imagine Gillespie would show interest, but, in the final outcome, he would use that as leverage to get the commitment from Texas A&M to upgrade their baskerball program.

    Fowler should try, but realistically we are headed for Haith or a mid-major IMO.

  21. Howling Wolf 04/13/2006 at 11:09 PM #

    >Let’s face it, Texas A&M has double the budget that we have.

    For basketball? I doubt it. That is football country. This issue is Gillispie is not an improvement over Herb and has no connection to NCSU.

  22. Winston Wolf 04/13/2006 at 11:24 PM #

    howling, the atheltic buget at Texas A&M is double ours. Yes, it’s a football school, but remember what happened two weeks ago with Barnes. A&M has the money.

    The issue is who is the best remaining candidate for our basketball coach. Style comparisons to Herb has nothing to do with the issue. I’d rather have a coach that has some history at a major – like Gillispie or a Haith – than a mid-major coach. If we cannot get a Major, then it’s whose the best mid-major out there for our situation.

  23. Wolf4Life 04/13/2006 at 11:25 PM #

    http://www2.kusports.com/stats/mens_basketball/compare/teams/?id=234&id=209

    Compares Texas A&M with States team this year.

    Some points of interest. Yes, he ran a slow down offence (Prinston style) this year not like Herb’s though.
    He attempted 87 fewer shots but came up with 30 offensive boards.
    Had 30 more steals = Good Defense
    Had more assists and less turnovers

    It should be noted that this is only his second year here where he inherited a TERRIBLE program with no tradition of winning. He also had some horses while at UTEP and averaged 77.5PPG.

    The thing that frustrated me with Herb, besides blowing leads was his inability to adapt to the situation. My final straw came in the Texas game. I just can not explain why we stopped using pressure defense after a stint of success in the first half? Herb’s downfall is he is hard headed and unwilling to adapt to the situation.

    Texas A&M beat Texas 46-43 this year with no where near the talent. Lost 74-70 in the Big 12 semifinals where he was down by 13 at the half and immediately made up the ground and it was a close game to the end.

    I ask you these all important questions since the Billy/Herb same offense questions arise.
    (1) If Herb beat UNC and/or Duke 46-43 would you be upset with his offense?
    (2) Why does a Gillespie run team have more offensive rebounds on way less shots than a Sendek Team?
    (3) Who played Texas more competitively?

    One of the reasons that I loved Jimmy V. besides his passion was the way he would adapt for each game. I remember running a box-n-1 and triangle-2 defenses along with many others if he thought it would help the team win. THIS IS EXACTLY THE STYLE OF PLAY GILLESPIE RUNS. Hands down, this is the guy we should get.

    By the way, recruiting issue. Where did Amato get a lot of his talent? Who cares where it comes from as long as you win!

    GO PACK!

  24. scoots 04/13/2006 at 11:27 PM #

    Gillispie’s also known a good recruiter, too…just read his bio at http://www.aggieathletics.com. I think he’d make some of our new recruits, including perhaps Chris Wright, comfortable b/c he could tell them his system will be similar to Herb’s, at least initially. Although we can’t know this for sure, I think there’s a good chance Gillispie’s teams would pick up the pace w/more talented players. I didn’t like Herb’s offense, either, but I want a winner more than anything at this point. I’d rather see us beat UNC 60-56 than lose 71-95!

  25. Nate Johnson 04/13/2006 at 11:33 PM #

    Let’s face it, Texas A&M has double the budget that we have. I imagine Gillespie would show interest, but, in the final outcome, he would use that as leverage to get the commitment from Texas A&M to upgrade their baskerball program.

    They may have double the budget, but it’s like getting Florida State to make the same commitment to their basketball program. A&M may have a little basketball history (they made the dance a few times in the 80s, including the Sweet 16.. recent history is looking better and better each day), but the primary focus will forever be football. That doesn’t mean they couldn’t — or wouldn’t — sweeten the pot for Gillispe et al., but basketball will always be a second fiddle there, regardless of how successful they are.

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