Re: Haith…The ACC Problem?

You really need to read the previous entry from earlier today before reading my comments.

The Atlantic Coast Conference has traditionally had a “gentlemen’s agreement” that league members would not poach coaches from each other’s programs. The conference office has traditionally played a role in maintaining order around this issue. Therefore, SFN can foresee the ACC playing a negative role in NC State’s potential conversations with Burlington native, Frank Haith.

The following are some comments about this:

* While I understand the implications of this old-boy way of doing things, it is time for the Atlantic Coast Conference to enter the modern-ages. The ACC once had seven teams; the conference now has twelve. Things change ;and the “old way of doing things rules” should have evolved with them.

* Any hurdle that the conference office would raise during a potential Frank Haith hiring would be grossly hypocritcal. By expanding in the manner that the conference did a few years ago, the conference implicitly and explicitly admitted that some schools are more “football-centric” and some are more “basketball-centric”. If that wasn’t the case, then why didn’t the ACC try to land Kentucky, Louisville, and Syracuse? (hyperbole folks, you get the picture)

* By their actions and comments, the conference both acknowledges and and has created an obvious caste system amongst its members — some schools are obvious football powers and some schools are obvious basketball powers. The conference’s creation and support of such an imbalance means that they should be very careful with immobilizing coaches who succeed and therefore want to improve their situation.

* Since the ACC acknowledges this, then why would they choose to send such a negative message to the rest of the country regarding future employment in the conference? Limiting coaches’ careers will only serve to HURT the ACC by making jobs like Miami, Clemson, Florida State, and Virginia Tech less attractive to future coaches contemplating a move into the conference . It is called the free market.

* Why would an “up-and-comer” ever choose one of these schools if they may potentially be considered for a job at State, Carolina, Duke or Maryland? Why would the ACC make decisions that would effectively discourage the future migration of great coaches to the lower-tiered basketball schools? How does impairing the ability to attract top talent to the conference (especially to the weaker programs) serve the ACC’s supposed goal to protect its members and act in everyone’s best interest?

* Let’s play a hypothetical game — What if Gregg Marshall at Winthrop knew that he was going to be a candidate for a hypothetical “dream job” at Duke in five years? What if he was on the top of the list at Miami or Clemson or VPI? Why would he want to come to one of those ACC schools to coach if it would impair his ability to better himself? Is the ACC now “better off” by not helping the weaker schools get the best talent that they can get (for whatever time that they can retain them in the free-market?

* Is the ACC not better off because of Frank Haith’s presence at Miami the last couple of years? Would Haith have ever gone to Miami if he had been told that he was going to have the chance to take the NC State job in the future? Again, how is limiting the basic principals of the free market good for the ACC?

* The ACC needs to make sure that all schools have the freedom to hire the best person for the job to support those programs. This is what is best for the conference! Not protectionism that prices the conference out of the free market for talent!!

* Look at how the SEC benefited when Tommy Tuberville made a move from Ole Miss to an obviously stronger football program at Auburn, and when Tubby Smith left Georgia for the national powerhouse of Kentucky. The alternative, of course, would have been for Tuberville and Smith leave the conference. How is that a good thing for the SEC? Would the SEC rather have had Tuberville and Smith LEAVE and therefore not generate the National Championships for the conference that they ultimately won at their NEW programs? What if Tubby had to move on to NC State and Tuberville to Georgia Tech to take the “next steps” in their career? How would the SEC have liked that?

* Ten years ago, Rick Barnes was the head coach of Clemson and wanted the NC State job. Nobody had the guts to stand up and do what was right for NC State. The ACC’s “gentlemen’s agreement” of not poaching ultimately impaired NC State’s ability & willingness to pursue Barnes and impaired Barnes’ ability to improve his career standing. Ultimately, Barnes’ career was limited and he choose to ride out of the conference to another job. How did that work out for everyone? Are you telling me that the ACC is better off without Rick Barnes the last decade? In the end, the conference ultimately lost a rising coaching star while simultaneously dooming NC State to another ten years in the desert. Clemson lost. NC State lost. How was this a good thing for the ACC?

* We hope/expect NC State to respectively tell the ACC to shove it IF Frank Haith is deemed “the guy”. We aren’t endorsing Frank Haith as “the guy”; but if that is who the administration chooses to pursue, then they should be allowed to work in the free market. We will with-hold more comments here until we have to make them.

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83 Responses to Re: Haith…The ACC Problem?

  1. cornellpackfan 04/13/2006 at 3:53 PM #

    I think it is stupid to pursue Haith at this point, and I do not think telling the league to screw off really is a smart tactic. We are already being railed in the press for other reasons why should we get railed for something valid like not being a institution of class in our league?

  2. Pack92 04/13/2006 at 4:02 PM #

    Anybody concerned about our class status needs to refer to our academic ranking. And the last I heard, Centennial Campus isn’t duplicated too many other places. We SHOULD tell the ACC to take a leap. Basketball in the ACC would not be where it is without NC State and WHO CARES what the Press (are you kidding me???) thinks? The last time I checked there was a JOURNALISM school in chapel hole. That must be one tough degree.

  3. GoldenChain 04/13/2006 at 4:03 PM #

    When 8 schools were in 4 states this gentlemen stuff might have worked but in the age of a mega Boston to Miami conference it won’t.

  4. Uncle Pack 04/13/2006 at 4:25 PM #

    Pursuing Frank Haith at this point would be a mistake, though I’m not worried if the ACC office likes it or not. I just am not impressed with Haith. He was an assistant at Wake Forest from 1997-2001, the years Dave Odom’s tenure went into the tank. The recruiting at Wake during that period was mediocre at best. Haith gets a lot of credit for his recruiting skills at Texas and I won’t bother to argue against that, but who has he recruited at Miami? I think the big three were already there, though I certainly could be mistaken. He might prove me wrong and be good in 4-5 years. At that point, I don’t think we should be bound by any gentlemen’s rules, though I don’t think we should break them without good reason. Pursuing Frank Haith at this point isn’t good reason.
    Talk to Billie Gillespie. He’s worked two near miracles in four years. He might work one here, even if he is from Texas. I’m sure the ACC office wouldn’t mind that one bit.

  5. heelnwolfsclothing 04/13/2006 at 4:36 PM #

    Personally, I’m just glad info is not leaking out like it did with Barnes and Calipari. If anything our coaching search should have been handled like Indiana and Oklahoma. Both of their coaching choices were out of the blue and the press did not have a clue. If our coaching search was done in stealth we would never have helped barnes and Calipari pad their pockets? Our course no one is talking about this, but hell.
    my 2 cents…

  6. Wolf-n-Atl 04/13/2006 at 4:37 PM #

    Would Miami fans even know they lost a basketball coach? They would probably say our Street agent set the deal up behind closed doors. 😉

  7. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 5:01 PM #

    I agree about the Miami Fans. I know at the Football game some of us were like “we’ll get you back during Basketball season” and they said “we don’t do Basketball”. If they don’t have a problem with it maybe the ACC would be cool with it. If that is not the case I really think we should stay away. Before all this Football stuff started the ACC thought of itself as being of a higher class than the rest of the world. It looks like $$$ has changed all that. I like Frank, but I’m not sure we should tell the ACC to go jump because of him.

  8. Wolf-in Around 04/13/2006 at 5:09 PM #

    No to Frank…No to causing issues with the ACC to many other Great Fish in the sea…IMHO 😮

  9. 74brickyard83 04/13/2006 at 5:18 PM #

    Is Frank Haith really anything more than a smoke screen?
    I believe the lack of posts addressing the current rumors is a testimonial to their validity. That is what I choose to believe, even if it makes no sense now or ever.

  10. Wolf-in Around 04/13/2006 at 5:21 PM #

    74brickyard83….I think you “Nailed it”.

    I am so not impressed with FH and the same goes with raiding a fellow ACC school…to many others to go after first…However, I do agree 100% with SFN that this should be last choice of picks…the floor level so to speak. 😉

  11. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 5:27 PM #

    I do like the fact that we are not hearing anything right now. It is also interesting to me that we have not heard lot from the media about the issue with Haith being from an ACC school. If it was an issue you would think they would be all over it now and not after the fact. Haith’s name has been out there since day one, but the hasn’t been a great outcry about it being a big sin. Maybe the ACC thing is not really as big a deal as some are trying to make it.

  12. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 5:37 PM #

    One more thought, LeeF and Co. and always use the line “the ACC wouldn’t let us get Haith” if they don’t get him and it turns out to be a mistake at some point down the road. Just a thought,

  13. Tired in Florida 04/13/2006 at 5:43 PM #

    …one historical note to this is that at the end of the 1964 season when it became apparent that Case wasn’t going to last much longer, we hired Press Maravich as an assitant coach with the understanding that he would be the head coach when Case stepped aside…Maravich was the haad coach at Clemson at the time…..so there is precedent for hiring within the ACC albeit based on something that happened a long time ago…..if it comes down to us believing that Haith being the man, I really don’t think the league will stand in our way and I don’t think we will think too much about it….

  14. JTO 04/13/2006 at 5:54 PM #

    Can someone please give me specifics as to what Haith has accomplished? When I thought of Miami the past few years I always gave Guillermo Diaz credit for their success. He wasn’t recruited by Haith. Someone else posted that his last two recruiting classes were dead last in the ACC. Is there any merit to this???? It just seems like there are too many unknowns here. Someone please give me some reasons to feel better about this.

  15. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 5:55 PM #

    Press’s last season at Clemson was in 1962. He had 6 losing seasons out of 6, his best being his last at 12 – 15. So you have a few years inbetween and I don’t think Clemson thought they lost a lot, other than maybe a shot at Pete.

  16. scoots 04/13/2006 at 6:02 PM #

    I don’t think there’s any problem with raiding another ACC school for a coach, I just hope Haith is the floor & we don’t have to go there. Don’t have anything particular against him, but good grief, he did quite poorly versus Herb. Versus HERB! Sorry, but I can’t see how he rates as much of an improvement, although he might could recruit a little better and wouldn’t run a Princeton-style offense.

  17. jambalaya 04/13/2006 at 6:04 PM #

    Just curious, here. But how is it that Haith at Miami is in play, given all that has happened with him this last week:

    1. He turned down the Oklahoma job
    2. He got a fat extension to his contract.
    3. He’s reported saying “10 times” in this article from the Miami Herald yesterday — that he’s really looking forward to coaching next year’s team.

    I agree he’s talented and might be a good pick for the Pack, I just wonder if he’s a realistic possibility, regardless of whether State chooses to honor the old “gentleman’s agreement” or not.

    Wondering ….

  18. Tired in Florida 04/13/2006 at 6:17 PM #

    ……they wouldn’t have gotten him either….the reason Maravich left NCSU was because Petey couldn’t get in school here……he spent his freshman year at Hargraves (freshmen didn’t play varsity then) trying to get his grades up and when he couldn’t, Press flew the coop and went to LSU…enter Sloan and the rest is modern history……

  19. BillyTheKid 04/13/2006 at 6:18 PM #

    What else is he going to say ………. I’m really looking forward to coming back next year unless I’m at my dream job at NCSU? They said on the BUZZ this afternoon that they thought Haith was only making 600,000 at the most. Does that sound right to everyone? They said that we could get him for about what we were paying Herb.

  20. Woof Wolf 04/13/2006 at 6:20 PM #

    I started this before Tired in Florida made his post, so even though it is repetitive. I’m going to post it anyway.

    I know this is ancient history but Clemson once had an up and coming head basketball coach named Press Maravich with a little boy named Pete, who people thought might turn into a pretty good basketball player. Coach Case and State hired him away and he came to Raleigh as an assistant. There was a little uproar among the media and I’m sure there would have been much more of a fuss if today’s forums were available. But most of the Clemson fans seemed to say, “Who … the basketball coach? Oh, when does spring practice begin?�

    Everyone knows the history. When Coach Case’s health got worse, Press became head coach and won the ACC championship in 65 when Pete was a junior in High School. After the next season, LSU stole Press and Pete away. We were mad as hell. Pete … well you know all about Pete. Press ended up at Appalachian State Teachers College and we ended up with a guy named Norman Sloan.

    Sometime you don’t know what’s best for you but you have to do what you think is best at the time. Don’t break any rules, but nobody ever accused Coach Case, Norm Sloan, Jimmy V, Dean S, or Mike K of being a gentleman.

    If Haith is the right man, let’s get him if we can.

  21. hoop 04/13/2006 at 6:28 PM #

    Allright, how much of a problem is our academic board in regards to landing a top name head coach? I mean, if people like Maravich and Stackhouse (and lots others) were going to come here but didn’t have the grades, do potential head coaches see this as a problem? You all may recall that Jordan grew up a Pack fan and ended up, well, you know.

  22. jambalaya 04/13/2006 at 6:37 PM #

    And when did the State job become Frank Haith’s “dream job”? If I’m recalling this correctly, what he said a few years ago was that he grew up a diehard ABC’er as a _kid_. That’s somehow morphed into “N.C. State is Frank Haith’s dream job.” Unless I missed something somewhere, where he specifically said that, I’m not convinced. Don’t forget the “A” in ABC means “Anyone,” not “N.C. State,” specifically.

    If I’ve missed something, though, I’ll be happy to stand corrected and harbor no ill will. I’m not attached to these points, they just seem to be unanswered questions at the moment.

  23. Herb29Herb05 04/13/2006 at 6:42 PM #

    Let’s say we do hire Haith. I’m sure the media will have a field day with it, but hey, they would anyway – we can’t afford to let their reactions affect our choice. Miami will probably throw a fit, but they’ll soon forget about it (they have assistant football coaches to hire). UNC and Duke will have a fit, because why would they want it to be easier to hire a great coach in the ACC? They both already have one. Even the small lower tier schools will complain, despite the fact that they will benefit in the long run.

    But who cares? They will soon get over it, this sort of thing will become commonplace, and the ACC will be better for it. And if, in the end, we get another great coach? I think we’ll be able to live with ourselves.

    One last point. Why exactly, should we honor a “gentleman’s” agreement that:
    a) hurts the ACC in the long run
    b) helps our two biggest rivals
    c) hurts us
    ??? We don’t want to be known as the “gentlemen” of the conference, nor as the nice guys – we want people to hate us because we beat them.

  24. Kingfish76 04/13/2006 at 6:59 PM #

    I think it is in our best interest to keep the interviews and offers as quiet as possible. The more we are turned down, the weaker our negotiating stance with future candidates.

  25. brown pelican 04/13/2006 at 7:00 PM #

    we are nc state—that article brought many posts that brimmed with pride—in that spirit—i believe we should conduct ourselves admirably for the remainder of the search—and—as i have suggested before—find the best mid-major out there—v and sloan both came from that breeding ground—the best mid-major who will stick their fist under williams’ and k’s nose and say—it’s on now bubba!!!

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