DD and Recruiting … Has NC State moved into the Elite?

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  • #133795

    SaccoV
    Participant

    I ask the question because (1) I’m skeptical with recruiting in general, and I don’t need to bore you with some cursory research regarding recruiting rankings and their trappings; (2) I haven’t posted on this forum in some time and given the news of Jackson’s commitment, I am pleased to re-open this discussion on this forum; (3) I miss you guys, and want my SFN back!!

    Ok, enough sentimentality.

    If you haven’t read or heard, Savion Jackson (DE, Clayton) committed to play for NC State for 2019 season. You can read the full write-up from Pack Pride here. Jackson’s commitment brings State’s overall recruiting class ranking for 2019 to #25, which PP goes in depth with here. This commitment could have many implications for Doeren’s continued recruiting as the buzz is that another highly recruited target for NC State J.R. Walker (4* from Northeastern HS) is apparently transferring to Clayton to complete his senior season playing alongside Savion Jackson.

    The first of my comments to this news is that it seems we haven’t been in this type of recruiting territory (with general buzz around commitments) since Chuck Amato was our head recruiter/assistant coach firer. So here goes some items for discussion:
    1) Doeren’s recruiting classes improved the first two years in terms of rank but fell off drastically for 2016 and 2017. After a huge jump in team rank to 26th for the 2018 recruiting class, Doeren appears to be moving closer toward a higher plateau for the 2019 class, which is currently ranked in the Top 25. Here are NC State’s 247Sports’ team recruiting rankings for 2013-2018 along with the individual 4* players by name.

    2013 — 59th (20 3*)
    2014 — 34th (27 3*, 2 4* [McLendon, Street])
    2015 — 31st (18 3*, 4 4* [Frazier, Hines, Roseboro, McGirt])
    2016 — 50th (22 3*)
    2017 — 53rd (21 3*)
    2018 — 26th (17 3*, 6 4* [Wilson, Person, Graves, McNeil, Palmer, Leary])

    Some analysis — Doeren owes much of his recruiting success to Des Kitchings, who is currently ranked #7 by 247Sports among recruiters nationally. If Kitchings stays, the talent coming in is bound to continue to be at this level.

    Also, despite losing some top recruits (like Johnny Frazier, for example) after their commitments, Doeren has maintained the stream of solid talent coming in to the program.

    Lastly, for this portion of the post, The Asterisk had a higher-ranked recruiting class every single year from 2013-2018 according to 247Sports. This brings me to my next point, stealing.

    2) What has intrigued me about the Savion Jackson commitment is that it has been the second time Doeren/Kitchings has swooped in to poach a talented player who was bound elsewhere to play football. Last summer, the coup involved Peyton Wilson (LB, Orange HS) who was committed to play for the Hat in Chapel Hill. After some recruiting work, and something involving a winery, Peyton Wilson flipped his commitment to the Pack in December of 2017. This year, Savion Jackson was thought to be all but committed to play for South Carolina in 2019. Regardless of the circumstances, Jackson (at this moment) is staying closer to home to play for the Pack. Although he was leaning strong for South Carolina, Jackson had offers from Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Tennessee and others. Doeren has begun to secure the borders somewhat, and been able to poach quality talent from rival teams in the region. Now, there’s no way that a visit from Doeren = a visit from Saban, but the profile of NC State football is growing with strong recruiting in-state. Regardless of rankings, Doeren has begun to impress in this area. To prove a full arrival, I’m hoping we hear some stories in the next year or so chronicling how recruits were assured to go to another school, but Doeren/Kitchings/Patrick flipped them for the Pack.

    3) My last point of discussion is development of talent. One of the major recruiting tools Doeren has been able (and willing) to use is this past spring’s NFL draft, were the entire defensive line was chosen to NFL squads. The famous Belichick visit to camp was the spark that lit up the off-season draft talk around the Triangle. Seven players chosen and more signed after the draft, Doeren’s NFL credentials are hard to argue with. UN* had exactly one player drafted (“Mr. Misdemeanor Assault” MJ Stewart) in this spring’s NFL Draft. Going back 4 years, players like Bradley Chubb and Jaylen Samuels came into the program with 3* ratings from 247Sports. Getting those players and making them into NFL-caliber players has been much more the norm for Doeren than his predecessor Tom O’Brien who currently has 4 of his NC State players on NFL rosters. With the recent draft in the books, officially Doeren has 18 former players with NFL teams. Despite some turnover with the coaching staff at positions, Doeren is still cranking out solid, NFL-caliber players.

    Let’s get this thing going again. And don’t worry … my anti-Avent crusade will pick up steam here in the next week!!

    #133798

    Greywolf
    Participant

    First, thanks for doing this. It is relatively easy to comment on someone else’s work. Doing the original work, not so easy. So again my appreciation for what you did.

    2) What has intrigued me about the Savion Jackson commitment is that it has been the second time Doeren/Kitchins has swooped in to poach a talented player who was bound elsewhere to play football.

    Jackson de-committed from Duke and re-opened his recruitment. He was not “bound” elsewhere. No coach gives up because he thinks a recruit is going to or might commit to another school. Even after commitment if coaches are given any indication that the recruit might “flip” they will continue to recruit.

    Savion scheduled a visit with us and committed after the visit. He is still not “bound” to NC State until he signs an LOI.

    Doeren had little if any involvement in Jackson’s recruitment. Kitchens did because Clayton is his geographic area of responsibility. Kevin Patrick will be Jackson’s position coach and far more likely worked together with Kitchins on the recruitment.

    Similarly Ted Roof worked with position coach Dwayne Ledford to land Dylan McMahon.

    One involvement Doeren had with Kitchins was when Kitchins was leaving to be HC at Furman and he stayed here to coach. LOL

    #133799

    Fastback68
    Participant

    Savion Jackson decommitted from Duke??? State was high on his list from the beginning. USCjr supposedly turned his head on an OV last weekend before another camp visit at State. A half dozen posters flip out because Savion’s mom tweeted likes to some USC chatter which of course meant he was destined to go there. Lots of crystal ball nonsense as well. Post commitment interview, Savion said he had informed multiple State players days before Wednesday he was Raleigh bound. Savion is supposed to enroll in December. Yes, wait until the ink is dry.

    #133800

    Fastback68
    Participant

    SaccoV, nice write up by the way. DD and staff don’t give up and they have flipped several players over the years. I’m following the Knight (Duke decommit) saga closely. He has visited State 3x recently and is now going to see Unx and VT. It could be a stellar pack of rbs for 3-4 years. Then there’s Crouch.

    I’ve read that Savion and several others are keeping their OVs so they can all go to State together. Exciting times.

    #133802

    SaccoV
    Participant

    Thanks, Greywolf. My thoughts as the Jackson announcement was coming along was the old adage regarding The Nose, and perhaps now the old Coach K, who could come in late in the game and steal a recruit. You’re absolutely right that Jackson re-opened his recruitment and that DD and Kitchings and Patrick took advantage. I like this mentality in our coaching staff and it appears those coaches are selling good values to these recruits.

    Here’s hoping the dominoes continue to fall in our direction with Knight and the others.

    #133803

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Savion Jackson decommitted from Duke???

    Probably not. A couple of guys have decommitted from Duke recently and my old mind likely confused Jackson with one of those. Senior moment, brain fart. It ain’t the first time and won’t be the last time. 😉

    My point was and is — it ain’t poaching if the player is not committed and Savion wasn’t committed to USCJr therefore not poached.

    #133804

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Thanks, Greywolf. My thoughts as the Jackson announcement was coming along was the old adage regarding The Nose, and perhaps now the old Coach K, who could come in late in the game and steal a recruit. You’re absolutely right that Jackson re-opened his recruitment and that DD and Kitchings and Patrick took advantage. I like this mentality in our coaching staff and it appears those coaches are selling good values to these recruits.

    “Stealing” a recruit is a good way to put it when a team like Tennessee comes in what appears to us as late and signs a highly valued recruit. What we don’t know is how long Tenn has been recruiting this guy.

    Merci Falaise, Assistant Director of Player Personnel/Recruit Communications was hired in early 2017. He had spent the previous three seasons working on the football recruiting staff at Tennessee. Falaise is a former Wolfpack offensive lineman. Falaise also has worked as an assistant coach at Georgia Military College in charge of the offensive line and tight ends. His relationship with GMC allowed State to slip in and sign CB Ki.shawn Miller seemingly out of nowhere. Miller is not a big kid and was flying under the radar but is a full speed ahead hitter.

    The position coach who signed Miller and is associated with Miller would appear to be the recruiter who swooped in and stole Miller. Much more complicated than that. Falaise’s playing and coaching background, the relationships with HS and JCs while not mentioned is responsible for Miller coming to State. We are in reaping the same benefits with Ted Roof recruiting in Georgia.

    We have a good sized staff behind the scene in the recruiting department but nowhere near as big a staff a Clemson, Tennessee, Bama, etc., and the rest of the top teams. Winning big with sustained success is not done on the practice field alone. It starts much earlier than that and involves lots of unknown staff. Relationships are formed early, sometimes as early as Jr. HS for some top recruits.

    Doeren will be a highly valued HC for us and coveted by schools who want to be big time football schools. The Tennessee fans may not have wanted Doeren or knew his value but the Tennessee AD did. We Wolfpack fans are mostly clueless as to what Doeren is doing as our HC. The culture that he has created here amongst the coaches as well as he players will produce results far into the future.

    We laugh at our neighbor being a “sleeping giant” but the Pack is as dangerous as an iceberg with only the tip of the danger showing. The recruiting staff and structure is the hidden part. We see the DL that was just drafted, JaySam, Hines, Harmon, Finley, et al but they are all the result of Doeren creating a culture for coaches and staff to work in and thrive while building the Wolfpack.

    It’s scary to think what the holes could do with the money they have available IF they had the right HC and culture for successful football.

    If the fans knew what DD was accomplishing, we would knock off the lame jokes and put-downs. We almost ran him off last year. Fortunately his wife and family didn’t want to move away from the friends and life they were enjoying here in Raleigh. We want find another DD at the price we are paying him. And folks, money ain’t everything. We can keep him if we as fans really want him. We DO need to trust that he knows what he is doing and is developing himself as a HC while bringing in great staff and top recruits are interested in NC State now.

    #133805

    SaccoV
    Participant

    I’m on-board with Doeren creating a much more solid culture of winning and development than we’ve seen, definitely since Sheridan. His coaching staff is rock solid, and getting recruiting victories like we haven’t seen since CTC.
    Recruiting wins notwithstanding, this is Finley’s final year coming up, and we’ll see how much Doeren’s coaching acumen has improved. It appeared to me last year that he did cede some of his gameday decisions to his coordinators, which is a double-edged sword. I want to see him really re-vamp our defensive schemes and change things more conducive to dominating a game against inferior league opponents (Pitt game last year comes to mind), and with the players we have coming in, that should be possible. But I want to see that on Saturdays in the fall.

    And to answer my own question from the top of the thread, we have NOT moved into the elite category yet. But I believe we are getting closer to the elite than we have been since the Amato years.

    #133806

    ryebread
    Participant

    If the fans knew what DD was accomplishing, we would knock off the lame jokes and put-downs. We almost ran him off last year.

    I’m fine with the rest of the post, but take issue at this. Yow clearly tried to get him under contract (prematurely in my mind) and he didn’t sign. Then DD flirted with both Ole Miss and Vandy. He was the one who was out fishing. We tossed him a bit more cash and he stayed. I said at the time (and still believe) that for every $1 we gave DD, we hopefully gave those key assistants like Kitchings and Ledford each $1 as well.

    He’s signed and we have him some time. I hope it works out for the best. I will let what happened in the negotiation be in the past, as long as others do the same. The narrative about us running off DD is seemingly disingenuous.

    Recruiting is on an uptick, and the staff looks to be a good one. Let’s see what we can do to hold it all together in order to actually break through. Historically that just hasn’t happened at NC State. The closest we’ve come in my lifetime is Sheridan. We still haven’t gotten the program back to where Sheridan had it, despite significantly better facilities and spending (relative to peer institutions). The next step is a team that is ranked 15th – 25th the entire season. I think we can do it, and this should be the year.

    Also, it looks like 85% of the posting of this community is over at Packfansnation now. Any chance we can take the thread over there?

    #133807

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Recruiting wins notwithstanding, this is Finley’s final year coming up, and we’ll see how much Doeren’s coaching acumen has improved. It appeared to me last year that he did cede some of his gameday decisions to his coordinators, which is a double-edged sword.

    Watch closely during a game Sweeney is coaching for instance. He doesn’t make decisions on defense and I’m pretty sure he doesn’t make decisions offensively either. You can really see it in pro games. The head coach has duties but they aren’t offense or defense decisions. The HC interfaces with the Referee, decisions that mean deviation from the game plan, etc. He may be the deciding factor in whether or not his team tries an on sides kick or not. Whether to go for it on 4th down or not, etc.

    You can count on his holding the coordinators accountable, as the coordinators hold the assistants accountable for their position groups. The HC is responsible for all the team does and for all the results. When the team isn’t winning, the AD doesn’t go to the coordinators about it the defense allowing too many points or the receivers dropping passes. You can bet your hat, arse and overcoat the receivers coach is responsible for those drops and has to account for them to the OC.

    Since the level we hear about accountability and responsibility usually stops with the head coach, little is known how far or deep this accountability/responsibility goes but I can tell you this: the players speak of being accountable as part of their education. It’s a fine line between holding someone to account and blame. Unfortunately we fans don’t understand the difference and when we hear of a coach or player being held to account, we frequently but unknowingly blast our coach for something he isn’t doing. Ever wonder why we hear so much “Coach speak”? Coaches are avoiding being truthful for fear of being misinterpreted.

    Doeren will make changes in the defense but Hux and Roof will be doing the heavy lifting. I expect new ideas from Roof but Hux is accountable for the defense and defensive changes. Already there are leaks about the defense being better, more exciting, etc. For sure Doeren will be in on the changes, maybe even in the coaches rooms putting limits on aspects such as blitzing. And he should be. He will also be in with the coaches creating
    offensive schemes, even tho he will have much less input. The “50/50 pass/run” philosophy is his and the offense will be designed inside these parameters. Deviations will be suggested by him or the coordinator to him but Doeren will not usurp the coordinator’s responsibility.

    This is how HCs keep good coordinators. Yes you have to pay them fairly but good coordinators won’t stay with a team that jerks them around. When Doeren went to New England, he took both coordinators with him. Very few college level coordinators meet with the some of the best counterparts in the business for coaching and training.

    He may be foolish to think so but Doeren is planning on the Wolfpack being on or near the top of college football. To quote Lou Holtz (or Holtz quoting somebody else), “If you don’t know where you are going, any road will get you there.” We seem to be trending in that direction.

    Backing up just a bit “Recruiting wins notwithstanding, this is Finley’s final year coming up, and we’ll see how much Doeren’s coaching acumen has improved.” Addition by subtraction. His coaching acumen will improve by less interference with his coordinators. IOW he is a smarter coach by letting his coaches coach.

    This is Finley’s final season. Kevin Leary, 4-star QB will be a freshman and there is every reason to believe he will be outstanding. Leary has a strong, accurate arm and is adequately mobile. He is a committed young man. Gave up his senior year of HS baseball to work out to gain the weight and strength he needs to be a college ready QB.

    The good HS receiving recruits know who will be delivering the ball to them and are interested in the Wolfpack. Our recruiting is not some hit and miss program under Doeren’s guidance and Kitchins’ management. We are attracting QB interest from 4-star HS QBs from as far away as California.

    We may not see it but others around the country see NC State as a team of the future.

    #133808

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Kicking hasn’t come up but it will. I’ve heard from reliable sources that our freshman kicker is not practicing putting the ball through the uprights, he is aiming for and hitting the tall light poles at the practice field. When you are that good, keeping practice interesting is challenging. My opinion? Let us inside the 35 yard line and you will risk giving up 3 points. Doeren’s coaching ability with our kicker is going to improve dramatically this year. 😉

    #133809

    Greywolf
    Participant

    The narrative about us running off DD is seemingly disingenuous.

    “We almost ran him off last year.” is almost a typo. Our (fans in general) comments about firing Doeren gave him cause to consider if he wanted to coach where he wasn’t wanted. Maybe he doesn’t have the thick skin needed to be a HC in 2018. We didn’t almost run him off. We didn’t run HWSNBN either, we just let him know we wanted him gone. 😉

    Putting those negotiations in the past is a good idea. We showed good faith with a nice raise. He showed good faith for taking 1M less than he was offered else where.

    #133810

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Also, it looks like 85% of the posting of this community is over at Packfansnation now. Any chance we can take the thread over there?

    If it doesn’t get moved, I’m going to repost my parts of the conversation on PFN — after editing out the disingenuous part. 😉

    #133811

    Fastback68
    Participant

    DD wanted a 5 year contract which is standard in D1 circles. Yow tried to low ball him. DD reached out to the Vols (Vandy didn’t change HC) and actually met with Currie. They had a discussion and Currie supposedly went back to Knoxville to get a proposal approved but got canned on his return. There was virtually very little written on the Vol boards about DD. Several months later a timeline of events was written. After reading it, I don’t think DD ever had a valid committable offer from UT. I think he leveraged media reports to get a lot more money from Yow and an additional pool of funds for his assistants. The Mississippi schools thanked him for his interest. This series of events is comically sad. Yow could have been reasonable with a second offer on year five prior to his agent sending out feelers but wound up spending more money in the end. How many here believe DD had a hard contract in hand for 4.5mm a year??

    #133812

    ryebread
    Participant

    How many here believe DD had a hard contract in hand for 4.5mm a year??

    DD flirted with some other offers to get the deal he wanted. One can call that gauging the market. Shrugs. He wanted some leverage, seemingly got it, and got the deal he wanted. Had he also walked because we decided he wasn’t worth it, I’d have been fine with that as well. The sun would have risen the next day.

    Yow’s job is to try to put him in a contract that is advantageous for NC State, while keeping him minimally satisfied. If she paid him $100 more than the minimum to keep him, then she’s frankly a bad business person. I see this reality in business every day. I’d much rather her be tough in negotiations than giving him a sweet heart deal with a big buy out. Yeah, he’d sign that in a second. Yow could retire with her guy in place and left that problem for the next person. I applaud her for not taking the easy way out.

    Let’s be honest about this. Two seasons ago DD had to beat UNC in the last game of the regular season, or he was gone. No NC State football coach has EVER survived a second season where he lost to ECU, lost to UNC AND had a losing season. They get one mulligan on this trifecta (and DD got his), but they never survive round two of that. Had he lost to UNC, that’s what would have happened, and he’d have been gone. Despite that, he wasn’t 3-4 games into this year and Yow was trying to extend him. I thought that was pretty good faith move by NC State and Yow.

    I also didn’t think it was a bad move by DD to chase other offers. Maybe one of those bites and he gets out of town on his own terms? What I thought was odd though were the jobs he was pursuing. NC State is about as far “south” in football culture where DD is really going to be a good fit. He is a much better fit for a Big 10 school, and I fully expect him to end up at one of those if he continues on an upward trajectory. If that happens and he does end up at a Big 10 school, then I’ll be fine with it. He’ll have clearly left NC State football in a much better place than he found it.

    #133813

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Let’s be honest about this. Two seasons ago DD had to beat UNC in the last game of the regular season, or he was gone.

    In the context of being honest, I have heard it both ways. One story is that some big hitters, while not happy with the w/l and some loses, were very happy with the way he was building the program and the culture being created here.

    So let’s be honest about this. Do you know beyond opinion that DD had to beat UNC in the last game of the regular season, or he was gone? Or is this your story based on the things you say in your post.

    I started not to respond to this knowing I might tee you off by questioning your which you state as fact. I really would like to know if you have info that would be useful to share. Use the PM on PFN if you want to keep it out of the public realm.

    #133814

    Fastback68
    Participant

    I read on multiple State sites at the time that “it was win this game or you are out the door” and several posters on SFN said the same thing. I repeatedly questioned that scenario from various “insiders” and always got the same it’s true response. Grey, you are the first poster that I’ve seen that says that maybe this wasn’t the case. All the positives that DD brought to the table up to that point were out the window if true. How would any of us handle that type of scenario in corporate america? Make this sale in the next 3 hours or you are fired. How would that sit with you? Go watch that game. DD was aggressive and used several trick plays to build a 21-0 lead. There was quite an argument about the second half on SFN about whether or not DD climbed into his conservative shell. I believe the win or goodbye ultimatum was valid.

    After much deliberation, I went to my employer early in my career and said I had two offers for almost double my then current salary. First of all, I was prepared to walk out the door that day. Secondly, I knew the department was severely understaffed. Lastly, I knew my boss hated the hiring process. DD got a material raise and so did I without a legit offer in hand. That tells me DD doesn’t have a warm, fuzzy relationship like GottYow.

    #133815

    Fastback68
    Participant

    By the way, warm up your radios for a noon commit. Per them sumabatches on 247.

    #133816

    Greywolf
    Participant

    I read on multiple State sites at the time that “it was win this game or you are out the door” and several posters on SFN said the same thing. I repeatedly questioned that scenario from various “insiders” and always got the same it’s true response. Grey, you are the first poster that I’ve seen that says that maybe this wasn’t the case. All the positives that DD brought to the table up to that point were out the window if true. How would any of us handle that type of scenario in corporate america? Make this sale in the next 3 hours or you are fired. How would that sit with you? Go watch that game. DD was aggressive and used several trick plays to build a 21-0 lead. There was quite an argument about the second half on SFN about whether or not DD climbed into his conservative shell. I believe the win or goodbye ultimatum was valid.

    Did you read where Yow said if he didn’t win, he was gone? Hers and Randy Woodson’s are the only opions that matter.

    I’m not sure how that game was played means that if we didn’t win, DD was fired.

    Grey, you are the first poster that I’ve seen that says that maybe this wasn’t the case.” The people I talked to don’t post their opinions.

    After much deliberation, I went to my employer early in my career and said I had two offers for almost double my then current salary. First of all, I was prepared to walk out the door that day. Secondly, I knew the department was severely understaffed. Lastly, I knew my boss hated the hiring process. DD got a material raise and so did I without a legit offer in hand. That tells me DD doesn’t have a warm, fuzzy relationship like GottYow.

    No offense intended but your personal experiences early in your career may not be the best criteria for forming opinions in these matters.

    #133817

    Fastback68
    Participant

    That’s the whole point Grey. So many sources said the message from management was win or you’re fired. Seems to me DD came out strong to win that game. IIRC, you said yourself that DD stayed aggressive throughout. There were so many player post game interviews that included the words “we won for Coach”. That was much different than players discussing individual plays.

    This topic has been discussed multiple times on SFN. It is the first time you have mentioned maybe win or fired wasn’t true. Are you saying insiders told you directly that DD was safe at 5-7? I don’t think anyone on SFN has irrefutable proof one way or the other.

    #133818

    john of sparta
    Participant

    dd takes the tob retirement package

    #133819

    ryebread
    Participant

    Gray: I have never claimed to have insider information. As you say, anyone who is not the Chancellor, the AD or a handful of big money donors, and DD really knew that situation. DD may not have known it either. Some of those may have a strong desire for revisionist history based on a current situation.

    I will say that I have history on my side on this one. Heck, we fired a beloved alum after the second pass at the trifecta. There is absolutely no way we would not have fired a guy from the Midwest, who was viewed as a bit of a gamble, who had called out the fans, whose recruiting had seemingly stalled out, who lost to an ECU team with a first year coach which then in turn proceeded to lose almost every game afterwards. Nope, sorry. He was toast if he lost to UNC. I fully expected us to lay an egg and for the walking papers to come swiftly.

    The reality is that day Charlie Brown actually kicked the football, or Toby got his date with Pam. Pick whichever analogy you want. Maybe it was the day that the Mississippi River ran north, and we had a seismic shift in the football alignment in the state of NC. Maybe it is a little simpler and DD finally decided to stop playing scared (though he did go back into his shell in the second half). Whatever it was he won.

    I don’t think for a second that he didn’t know that was make or break. I don’t think for a second he wasn’t darn serious about the jobs he was chasing. He was chasing jobs that really weren’t good fits because he knew how thin that line was. He had a high water mark year last season, beating FSU and UNC and still only finished 8-4. There’s a lot there for DD yet to prove.

    The good news is that the most important part of managing is staffing, and DD seems to be doing that well. Do that and keep them all fed, and DD doesn’t have to be all that good. Things will take care of themselves. That’s why I hope we paid $$$ to those good assistants.

    #133820

    Greywolf
    Participant

    So many sources said the message from management was win or you’re fired.

    “Message from management?” You just revealed the extent of your knowledge. Debbie Yow is the only management and she didn’t, wouldn’t, shouldn’t be putting out any “message” about Doeren being fired, possibly being fired or any other condition for his employment prior to her meeting with Doeren.

    Rye does an excellent job of speculating on reasons why Doeren would be fired. Makes sense but it’s still speculation. People so strongly believed that Doeren was set to be fired because of the W/L before the UNC game that they thought it was fact. It was not.

    We are finding out now how well Doeren had the program planned out and how the plan was to be executed. I don’t know about since then but Yow met with Doeren personally at least weekly his first five years going over the staffing, staff salaries, renovations and financing of renovations, prioritization and a myriad of other details.

    99.9% of the fans back then (we are a lot smarter about these matters now) couldn’t tell squat about how the program was doing without looking at the W/L record and that didn’t reveal much. Debbie Yow was intimately aware of how the program was progressing. She was partners with Dave building the football program we are only beginning to enjoy.

    The Holes are a good example illustrating how misleading the W/L can be. They had an 11-1 regular season record including a division championship. Look at how that “program” is trending. There are Wolfpack fans today who think Fedora is a great head coach. He’s a great OC and this is his second program he has let go to hell while having a great offense.

    I’m sure that Yow had conversations with DD about delegating responsibilities to his coordinators. I’m equally sure he listened. Doeren is not a great field coach but so what? Drinkwitz can get it done within Doeren’s parameters. Hux, god bless him, kept his ego in check and let DD be involved without causing a problem. With Ted Roof on the sideline, Doeren needs to let Hux and Roof manage the defense.

    Doeren needs his head in the game to make good decisions only he can make. He makes the “go-or-no-go” decision on 4th down. Drink makes the play call. It’s how HC’s keep good coordinators. Good OC’s double check with the HC before the play is sent in.

    He’s the team communicator with the Referee and he works the referees — in a respectful manner of course. With responsibilities delegated he will make the decisions he has to make, better ones. He needs to be the head “Attaboy” man when the D has a 3 and out or a stop on 4th down or goal line stop. The those attaboys are important coming from the HC.

    Debbie is Dave’s boss and she needed to coach him on things he may not have learned as a DC or with a familiar staff and NI. We give Dave credit for all he has accomplished and we should give credit to Debbie Yow for training and developing Doeren. Forget the “she shouldn’t have to’s,” somebody had to do it. It was her responsibility to do so and she did it. And I doubt he knows it.

    IMO Ted Roof is going to be the key to our going over the top on defense this year and in the future. Just having him coordinating the back 5 and probably the back 7 will eliminate a lot of indecision and misalignment. Patrick doesn’t need a lot of coordinating with the D-line. With Hux in the booth and Roof on the sideline, I doubt we will recognize the results. Word is filtering out of the “locker room” our defense is going to be greatly improved. All the fear about losing 4 to the draft is just that, fear. This D-line is not going to be as good as 2017 but the defense is overall going to be much better.

    #133821

    ryebread
    Participant

    Grey:

    I think we are in agreement about the state of things today. Let’s agree to keep things there and we’ll be good. 🙂 I admittedly opened a can of worms but wasn’t going to take that “NC State fans ran off DD” garbage. The media will pick that up and run with it.

    In my lifetime the NC State fans have run off exactly one revenue sport coach — HWSNBN. Goodness knows Fowler was never going to fire him, but he was a survivalist enough to know that if raised HWSNBN’s salary to match or exceed ASU’s offer, then he’d have quickly been shown the door. He chose self preservation. Can’t say I blame him as he was never again getting a job that good (just like HWSNBN won’t either).

    The spot the narrative could hold up is if DD’s on field performance continues at its current clip (5-7 to 8-4) for another 3-4 years. At that point we’ll push towards a decade with mediocre results, with a coach that doesn’t really connect with the fan base, whose admin support will be getting shaky (Yow will be retiring) but who has what some insiders think are “seeds of greatness.” All this stuff about DD and Bilechek and structure, etc. all remind me of how some close to the program spoke of HWSNBN. The reality is that the Desert Buddha didn’t have “it” and never was going to. In the next 3-4 years, DD will show if he does.

    I do think there are a couple of things that are different. The first is that this is football at NC State, not men’s basketball. The inputs are different, as are the reasonable expectations. We are a .500 football program historically. If DD keeps it clean, connects with the fans and goes 6-6 to 8-4, then he can be here as long as he’d like.

    The second is the coaches under and around him. If he actually turns into a CEO, lets these guys do their jobs, and manages to keep them around, we should be in good shape. Hux and Roof are both seasoned, upper third DCs on their own. If they can mesh, they should put out a good product. Drink is young and pass happy, but as long as Ledford is giving him the OL, Des some RBs and DD gives him a a high level metric like “50/50 play distribution” or “50/50 yardage distribution” or “75% TD % in the red zone, don’t care how many downs it takes” then that should be enough to keep him grounded and pointed in the right direction. This is the best staff we have had since Amato’s early years, so I hope we can keep them around. The right staff can turn NC State into a solid, consistent top 25 team, which would far exceed our inputs.

    #133822

    Greywolf
    Participant

    Gray: I have never claimed to have insider information. As you say, anyone who is not the Chancellor, the AD or a handful of big money donors, and DD really knew that situation. DD may not have known it either. Some of those may have a strong desire for revisionist history based on a current situation.

    Ray: You make a great argument but most of your argument is comparing CTC’s 7th season with DD’s 4th season. Amato’s teams finished 5–6 in 2004, 7–5 in 2005, and 3–9 in 2006. Amato had no saving grace. He just endured his 3rd straight loss and was 3-9 overall to the holes.

    Amato came into the job with a lot of enthusiasm and excitement and it was contagious. I know I was excited and enthusiastic. He brought in a great group of coaches. While he had no previous HC experience, he had been Bowden’s right-hand man for years literally managing the FSU program.

    Doeren OTOH came in with little or no HC experience, no great group of coaches. As a matter of fact Doeren was behind the 8-ball for coaches when his DC took the HC job at Northern Illinois and about half the assistants stayed with him.

    Fans don’t know squat about recruiting. We think each year coaches go out and talk recruits into coming to our or another school. The Sabans. Sweemeys, and others have programs within the overall football program that benefit the recruits/players and prepare them for life. They create a culture inside their programs. Not many new coaches have this knowledge and ability.

    Doeren wasn’t hired because of his record at NI and he wasn’t hired because he was a charismatic recruiter who could talk recruits into flipping to NC State. He was hired because somebody clued Debbie Yow in on his knowledge of how to build a program that had integrity, was academically sound, rock solid and sustainable. And when other schools are interested in Doeren, that is what they are coveting.

    Just as the other programs knew what they were after in Doeren, Debbie knew it too. Fortunately she didn’t think his first 4 year W/L record was the measure of the man as a head coach.

    This analogy might make clear what I’m talking about. Some fans/ADs can see gold nuggets when they look at a w/l record but can’t see the nuggets looking at the ore That contains nuggets. To further the analogy Doeren’s recruiting staff is bringing in the raw ore for the coaches to look through for nuggets.

    I truly believe the day will come when NC State will be bringing in richer ore to process (4 & 5-star recruits). Doeren has put together a staff that can process the ore (strength and conditioning staff), create useful products (position coaches turning out draftees) and will reap the benefits of the hard work (Championship and play-off contenders, major bowls, etc.).

    The W/L is ultimately important but we have got to stop pulling the young carrots out of the ground to see how they are developing.

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