The Symmetry of Loserdom

I remember sitting in Carter-Finley on Philip Rivers’ Senior Day. State was choking against Maryland, and with under three minutes to play, the Terps missed what would have been the game tying extra point. I swear to God, I turned immediately to my family and said “Great, now we will lose in regulation.” Which we most certainly did.

State went on to beat a comically inept Kansas team in a meaningless minor bowl game, but what could have been a special (or at least very good) season had slipped away. And that was pretty much it for the Chuck Amato era. The window had slammed shut, and nothing epitomized the floundering to come better than that game against Maryland.

Flash forward to today. A game with the Atlantic Division title on the line for the Pack. A game that we only needed to win because of Tom O’Brien’s inexplicable decision to punt late against Clemson (after numerous blown opportunities to put the Tiggers away). A mediocre opponent with nothing to play for, whose spirit should have been crushed after finding themselves in an early 14-0 hole.

Of course our sphincters slammed shut. Of course we spit the bit. Of course we allowed Maryland to go on a 38-3 run and win the game. Of course we pissed away a “once in a generation” opportunity for a special season. We are NC State. That’s just how we roll.

Tom O’Brien proved his skeptics right. He can’t win the big one. He does get tight in pressure situations. He is a “football Sendek.” At least he probably won’t get a parade for matching Amato’s high water mark (5-3 in conference play). We’ve learned that much from past experience, one would hope.

Just like that chilly fall afternoon when Rivers threw his last home pass – Russell Wilson threw his last ACC pass today. And just like I strongly felt then, I feel it now – the window has slammed shut. It’s not going to happen for NC State under Tom O’Brien. Unless the “it” you are looking for is an 8-win season and a minor bowl bid. Blech.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

'10 Football ACC Chuck Amato Tom O'Brien

185 Responses to The Symmetry of Loserdom

  1. highstick 11/28/2010 at 7:23 PM #

    I predicted 4 wins this year, I think..I’ll have to go back and look at the thread..I called us beating Carolina again, but we “way over achieved” with the talent that I thought we had. Moose turned out to be better and I never thought that our linebacker would make the return that he did after the car injury. With our luck with injuries in the past, I was shocked that we dodged the bullet this year…

    I’m really disappointed with yesterday, but not “destroyed” over it…But, it’s time to regroup, decide where we want to go with the assistance of A NEW ATHLETIC DIRECTOR and not a dumb ass like Fowler. We’re still wreaking from his stench and have no where to go but UP!

    Think positive, push for athletic and academic excellence, don’t accept mediocrity, and I’ll let some of you other “positive thinkers” out there add some other words of wisdom..

    Adventuroo…the ball spot on that play was a shocker…unless those lines on TV are way ass off, they blew that mark.

  2. tractor57 11/28/2010 at 7:45 PM #

    I predicted 6-6 as I remember (upped from 5-7) so on that level I think this team “exceeded expectations”.

    If all things had worked out in the Packs favor the team would be undefeated. I think you are spot on with your view Highstick (and I know you enjoyed the massacre in Clempson last night).

    I went back and looked at my DVD of the game and it does seem the lines were really off (the chain was at least a half yard shy or the line) but I also think the spot was “less than generous”. I also saw MANY times where the players on the field plain didn’t perform. Blame that on the players or the coaches makes no difference to me – the team left money on the table but at the beginning of the season I had no idea the team would be right here right now. That I see as progress.

  3. hball57 11/28/2010 at 8:06 PM #
  4. dantheman 11/28/2010 at 8:32 PM #

    You are what’s wrong with the internet. Swings of unaccountable emotion. I love him I hate him. If you would not say it to the coach’s face then quit saying on the blog. I’m tire of the whining.

  5. Rick 11/28/2010 at 8:59 PM #

    “You are what’s wrong with the internet. Swings of unaccountable emotion. I love him I hate him. If you would not say it to the coach’s face then quit saying on the blog. I’m tire of the whining.”

    Nice intelligent response.
    I am so glad we have your in depth analysis and input.

  6. VaWolf82 11/28/2010 at 10:00 PM #

    Starting with a team in the bottom third of the conference and a defense ranked at/near the bottom in every defensive category from 2009, an acceptable amount of improvement was made this year.

    I would have been happy with even more, but it doesn’t change the bottom line: This was a good year….not a great year, but a good one.

  7. ADVENTUROO 11/28/2010 at 10:08 PM #

    That video confirmed what I thought I saw, as well as tens of thousands of folks at home. I hope (but I am mature enough not to all bent out of shape over it) that TOB will do a formal request for a review through the proper channels and that Ref. Cherry is called to task. There was one “review” where the call on the field was overruled. My wife, a very astute observer, remarked that it was NOT going our way as Ref. Cherry was stumbling all over himself trying to explain WHY….when he starts to ad lib, we KNOW we are fornicated…..reference the “Giving him the business” call…..still hunting for the NCAA rule where that is properly defined.

    For those that might think that since I do not support some of the decisions and question the competence of our (unfortunately) elected leader who has a cut lip and resides in the large White public housing complex on Pennsylvania avenue that criticising Ref. Cherry has something to do with his ethnicity…..far from that. He is supposed to have the necessary credentials for the job…but his manner and demeanor and knowledge and “control” or management of the game seems to qualify him for Friday Night Football, assuming there is no State Championship on the line.

    But, as we all know, had Maryland turned over the ball, there was no guarantee that RW and company could have scored a touchdown….but we would have LEAST had a FAIR and SPORTING opportunity.

    TOB on his show tonight actually showed quite a bit of leadership and class. He was NOT critical of the team…..took the blame for not being totally prepared and also wanted the team to look forward to a great bowl opportunity and also a better season next year.

    On another note, but not unrelated, the announcers on the NBC telecast of the Giants and Chargers are extolling the toughness, ability, courage, and experience of a certain EX-NCSU quarterback…..and showing stats that are better than, GOD forbid, an exaulted Manning….

  8. ryebread 11/28/2010 at 10:17 PM #

    Random smattering of thoughts since I’m on a smartphone.

    1) Yesterday’s loss was as predictable as the sun. We can write that script. My friends and I were unwilling to buy ACC championship tickets until we’d actually won yesterday. That was a smart move.

    2) My stretch goal for this season was 8-4 (5-3) and I expected 7-5. After we lost to ECU and were starting to clearly regress on offense, I knew 8 wins was about where we’d finish. You just can’t win big with no running game and crappy special teams. That’s just too much pressure on a thin (yet admittedly improved) defense.

    3) TOB is the HWSNBN of college football — the perfect Lee Fowler hire. Anyone who thought he was going to win a championship of any kind here just was not looking at the man’s history or our program’s history. We hired a 7 to 9 win per season coach to lead a 7 to 9 win program and we did it on the cheap. We got what we paid for and he is delivering about as we should expect. He reminded us yet again win his post game comments (which pissed me off because of the loser’s mentality yet were also true).

    4) Best we didn’t get to Charlotte because we’d have been rolled by VT. Even if we’d have miraculously won that, we would have been shellacked by Wisconsin, Stanford or TCU. All of those teams would have figured out we were 1 dimensional very quickly.

    5) TOB is coaching here as long as he wants. We don’t have the cash nor the will to change things. I’m not convinced Yow can effectively handl revenue sport changes but that is another topic entirely.

    6) We’d better hope the hammer does fall on UNC because their talent advantage is huge and the gap will widen. My biggest concern with this staff is the same as it has been from day one — they’re not going to be able to recruit well enough to overcome BD and UNC. Nothing about tuis year’s class suggests otherwise. We’re about 1-2 more classs from UNC being a legit top 10 contender.

    7) We are a basketball school in a basketball conference. As much as I love going to football, we should focus our very limited resources accordingly. NC State will never win a title in football in my lifetime. We actually could in basketball. It is time for our fans to wake up.

  9. MA Wolfpack 11/28/2010 at 11:14 PM #

    ryebread, I think most people want to win the ACC. That is a very achievable goal at NCSU in football.

  10. Greywolf 11/28/2010 at 11:18 PM #

    It’s TOB’s responsibility but DB has too many chemo treatments IMO. He’s the QB coach and OC. What coach in his right mind would plant his 6 foot tall QB in the pocket to be surrounded by 6′-6″ DLs? RW got in trouble when he tried to scramble after the pocket collapsed. Yeah, he made some miraculous runs under those conditions but he was sacked more often than he got away. On the otherhand when he rolled out he was ALWAYS dangerous.

    I’m just pissin’ and moanin.’ Look at our offense from the defense’s point of view. No misdirection to concern ourselves with. Stationary QB to play ‘Meet at the QB’ with our teammates. Pass routes from the 70’s. Runs up the middle. They run nearly EVERY time RW gets under center.

  11. mak4dpak 11/28/2010 at 11:30 PM #

    Made my first trip to Maryland. Quite memorable in the freezing cold weather. Inexcusable loss! Maryland’s QB had all day, unlike the beginning of the season when we put relentless pressure on VT/CF/Cincy, but never saw it yesterday, and the same guy kept catching the ball, with no adjustments at halftime. Coaching, probably from Archer, as he is the head defensive coach, not to mention the turnovers, dropped passed, blocked FGs. If TOB is to remain, he needs to make some coaching changes, and wouldn’t miss Bible either, I think his play calling sucks. Likes to be conservative after getting a lead. And hopefully RW, will leave this year, as I am sick of his non chalant comments after losses, which don’t seem to really bother him. Champions play like champions, and coaches coach like champions. I guess that is why we won’t be playing in Charlotte. Never seem to be prepared when playing in the big one. Maybe FSU will win, then we can at least claim a victory of the ACC champs. Even though we we were not picked to finish as high in the division, we had the chance to win every game we lost, and it was due to poor decisions, either by the coaches, or the great RW, heisman candidate (not).

  12. choppack1 11/28/2010 at 11:32 PM #

    “I personally hope that he sends in the “critique” that singes the ACC Chief Ref’s eyebrows”

    Adventuroo – don’t worry. I know for a fact that plenty of tapes have been sent in – and you’re more likely to write the P.O.T.U.S.A. and getting a positive response.

    Who knows what will happen next year. I’m thinking big picture and the way I see it, this team improved from Amato’s last to TOB’s first, TOB’s 2nd from TOB’s first – took a huge step back in year 3, but then took a nice step forward in year 4. (I’ll let you figure out which year is the outlier.)

    RW gave everything he had on that field last night – but his receivers didn’t make plays. I thought that RW didn’t play good enough vs. VaTech and ECU – but today was more like 2 years ago – our receivers didn’t make plays. The sad fact is that there were at least 2 drops by guys who had made key plays the last 2 weeks, and fumble that shouldn’t have happened.

    Support the team AND staff though – effort and preparation has not been a problem this year. We played 12 games and were w/in 7 points in the 4th quarter of all of these games.

    Don’t get me started on pass D – when 2 qbs have career days vs. you, there’s a problem – (it’s probably an LB trying to stick w/ a guy who runs 4.4 forty).

    Maybe this is our ceiling, maybe it isn’t. Bottom line – TOB has earned the right to be NC State’s coach for at least another year.

  13. ryebread 11/28/2010 at 11:33 PM #

    MA: I understand that most people want to win the ACC in football. Heck, I want us to win a national title in every sport in which we compete, but it’s not happening. That takes me to your second statement.

    I’m not sure that an ACC title in football is realistically achievable at NC State. I’ve been watching NC State football since about 1981 and have been going to the games in person every year since 1987. Ever since FSU entered the league, we’ve had one real opportunity to do so — the Gator Bowl year. Otherwise, I’ve seen nothing in person that supports your statement.

    The last time we’ve won an ACC title was in 1979. The ACC landscape was far different then — there was no GT, no FSU, no Miami and no VT. The national landscape was far different as well — ND was a power, the SWC still existed, teams like Nebraska could stockpile players, games weren’t televised at the level they are now.

    Now let’s look at the arms race that is college football. I don’t think we have deep enough pockets needed to win at a high level. If I’m not mistaken, we pay TOB and staff at or near the bottom of the ACC. Sometimes you have to pay to play and I don’t see us having the kind of $$$ needed to do so in football.

    That’s my point about basketball and our focus as a school. I actually think we have the conference, the arena, the history AND the funds in order to do so. Let’s start there and see what we can do.

  14. WolftownVA81 11/29/2010 at 12:00 AM #

    What I watched was not Wolfpack Unlimited. I’m very anxious to see what changes will be made between now and next year. I’m not saying it’s time to fire TOB, but the status quo won’t do. Seems I’ve heard that from a certain AD. We’ll it’s time to put up or….. IMO, the eggs we’ve laid this year have done more to drain excitement from Wolfpack FB than the crappy win loss records of previous years. We need a momentum shift in the program. Yes, 8 wins was nice but I need to see more before I’ll get excited again about our program. Tenuta was a nice pickup. Now finish the job.

  15. ADVENTUROO 11/29/2010 at 12:21 AM #

    mak4dpak,

    It WAS probably very chilly in Byrd Stadium ths past Saturday. BUT, if you want to know what cold is, then the Liberty Bowl in 1963 where the temperature never got out of the low 20’s was COLD. And the wool band uniforms are not THAT warm. I think that I had on my long PJ’s and a pair of pants under the uniform….my feet finally thawed out around New Years, 1964. It was COLD in Philly….that was the last year they held the Liberty Bowl in JFK Stadium….and there was a massive snow storm (cold front moving in) that hit NC the day afterwards….One of these days, I will travel to College Park, but only if the game is in the early season.

    Just finished watching SD destroy the Giants. Manning was closing his eyes and clinching before he released the ball. PR looked great. He was sharp and also seemed motivated and was having fun….last time I saw (through binoculars) that same facial expression was in 2002 (I think) in Jacksonville and the Fighting Irish weren’t fighting anymore.

    When your HOT, your HOT….when you’re receivers drop the ball and you overthow, your NOT….I did not really want to go to Charlotte….will see WHERE we end up, then decide if I want to travel….I keep saying that I will NOT go to Orlando again, but who knows, depends on the opponent….

    GO PACK….hope the D and the LB and DS get some new “reflexes” from the fat man in the Red suit…

  16. tractor57 11/29/2010 at 12:45 AM #

    Guys,
    I don’t know what game you watched but I didn’t see a single Giants uniform. It was Eli’s older brother who was flinching (Colts).

  17. Avid109 11/29/2010 at 6:48 AM #

    Ryebread said: “I’m not sure that an ACC title in football is realistically achievable at NC State.”

    If that’s the case, then why even field a football team? Why does Wake Forest have a football team? A small school like that would have absolutely no chance of winning an ACC title.

    That kind of attitude is one of (if not THE) biggest problems with NC State athletics.

  18. coach13 11/29/2010 at 7:30 AM #

    Am I the only one who thought Maryland just looked like the better team? We stopped the run as well as any team could have possibly, but that MD QD disected our secondary. We could get 0 pressure on him and he was awesome…and…his receivers made some nice plays for him. That had to be the poorest performance by a group of receivers ever on our part. NO big plays made by the at all. I am so ready for Glennon. Md showed you what a good pocket passer could do given time. I know it looked like Wilson was poorly protected at times but alot of that IMO was 1-he held the ball too long or 2-didn’t recognize blitzes and did not make the quik read/checkdown.

    Maryland had the better coaching staff also. They shut NCSU down and Bible had nothing in his imagination to spark this offense. I think TOB is a good coach, but he does not have great assistants. Bible is tired as are his offenses. Archer needs to be replaced with Tenuta. And I doubt O’Brien has the balls to make the call on either.

  19. Wulfpack 11/29/2010 at 7:43 AM #

    “Am I the only one who thought Maryland just looked like the better team?”

    No. They absolutely were. Maryland is going to continue to be a thorn in our side for years to come. That freshman QB is flat out awesome, and the coaching at Maryland is superior.

  20. choppack1 11/29/2010 at 10:35 AM #

    “I’m not saying it’s time to fire TOB, but the status quo won’t do.”

    Uh, 5-3 in conference, 8-4 overall is NOT the status quo at NC State. It’s above the mean. It’s our best record since 2002. The 5 wins in conference ties our most conference wins since 1994. (In those 16 years, we’ve hit the 5 win mark just 3 times.)

    Think about where we were 4 years ago. We’d just lost to UNC w/ a losing record and it was our 3rd consecutive loss to the Tar Heels. We went 3-9, beating only one team out of conference.

    Essentially this team played 4 “must-win” games vs. teams w/ similar talent. 3 of those games were on the road. Overall, we went 2-2 in those “must win” games. This program has certainly come a long way. I think we all want it to go farther still, but this year was a step in the right direction.

  21. ryebread 11/29/2010 at 10:41 AM #

    Avid: Call me out for a loser’s mentality if you want — that’s fine. WF fields a football team for the same reasons that Duke does — because they have to to be allowed to stay in the ACC and because it is a major source of revenue for their athletics department. Those are the same reasons that we should.

    It’s honestly, the same reasons that any small business runs — are they going to be #1? Nope, there’s only one of those. Can they make a nice profit? Yep. Should we expect every small business to either be #1 or completely shut down? No — but that’s your argument.

    I’m asking is for people to realistically look at the inputs and outputs and draw rational conclusions. Are you disappointed about a coach who takes a fraction of the budget of his rival at a bigger name school and then outperforms him, beating him head to head? I’m far from a TOB fan or apologist (see my earlier posts), but that’s what we’ve got.

    Realistically, unless the inputs ($$$) drastically change, I don’t expect the outputs (wins) to do so. College football is an arms race and we are far, far down the curve. College basketball is less so, and we’re near the top of the heap. Let’s get basketball over the top and then maybe some of that success will help our football program further over-achieve. Until the inputs change, I’m going to be happy with 7 to 9 win seasons.

    I’ll close by saying that I was as pissed as anyone on Saturday. I believed we were in a perfect storm scenario that might actually let us break through (ah la WF a few years ago). At the same time, I knew TOB’s history and didn’t expect a win — which made the loss even that much more bitter in a way.

  22. BJD95 11/29/2010 at 10:58 AM #

    It’s funny that, as angry as I was and still am, that I’ve emerged as the “moderate” in all this.

    1) This was a good season. It was neither great nor mediocre (the extreme positions).

    2) NC State can and should expect to compete for Atlantic Division and ACC titles in football. It’s ridiculous to accept doormat status, and equally unrealistic to expect NC State to become a dominant football power nationally.

    3) Tom O’Brien is a good football coach, who doesn’t deserve to be fired (yes, despite what I said after the Clemson game). He’s not terrible, mediocre, OR great. He can still prove to be mediocre or great for NC State, depending on how the post-Russell Wilson era develops.

    None of this detracts from my main point, which has been echoed by media members across the state – we had a golden opportunity for so much more in 2010, and flat out blew it. We will always regret it unless we pull out a conference title in the few remaining seasons of the O’Brien era.

  23. choppack1 11/29/2010 at 11:33 AM #

    BJD – I really can’t argue w/ your 3 points at all.

    I have only a minor disagreement – and it’s about those 4 games. We played FSU (eventual Atlantic champion) at home. We played Clemson, UMd and UNC on the road. Expecting NC State to beat FSU and then go 2-1 vs those other teams is a bit of stretch.

    I still think the real stinker in this equation was the Clemson game. However, you still have to assume a win over UNC to avoid the situation we ran into at College Park. (And if you are going to give me 5 wins, I’d much rather have one of them be vs. UNC than Clemson)

    If there was some bad luck in this season, it was the way the schedule broke out – playing UMd when they were playing their best (if we had faced them w/ their original QB, we probably would have had the outcome we wanted), playing AT Clemson.

    Clemson, UNC, UMd and GaTech are teams vs. which we don’t have a talent advantage – and playing all 4 of those on the road, well, let’s just say that 2-2 is better than a Wolfpack program has done historically.

    Next year should be really interesting – we get those teams at home (Clemson, UMd, UNC and GaTech), but we play on the road vs. WF, BC and UVa(I’m guessing since it seems like we haven’t played them since TOB’s 1st year)…These are games where we may actually have a talent advantage. So, if TOB is doing what we both think he should be doing, we should have a shot at 6 conference wins again.

  24. patientwuf 11/29/2010 at 1:12 PM #

    My Perspective:

    You will not be a championship caliber football program with your defense giving up 800 plus yards of passing in 2 games and you have very little run game to speak of.(No balance)

    Of course Maryland had very little balance and still beat us.

  25. choppack1 11/29/2010 at 1:34 PM #

    patientwolf – if RW had been “on” like Yates and O’Brien – we would have won our last 4 games easily.

    I’m not saying that this loss is his fault – he left it all out on the field, his receivers didn’t help him much and he made several great plays w/ his feet -but our offense was not the juggernaut it was supposed to be in our last few games.

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