ACCT Open Thread – Welcome to the ACC, Virginia Tech

picture1 N&O’s Joe Giglio:

UNC finished the game with 21 attempts from the free-throw line (hitting 15), while VT finished 8 of 11. It’s not like VT took a ton of 3s and the totals were skewed by shot selection. UNC and VT each took 19 3s.

And don’t confuse me here, I’m not saying UNC won because of the officials. Hansbrough was great — actually it was one of his five best games — but the selective enforcement of the contact did affect Tech.

Vassallo’s second foul, about 22 feet from the basket on a touch foul defending Bobby Frasor, was questionable at best. Vassallo had to sit out the final 8:19 of the first half after that foul. That’s a long chunk of the game to go without your best player, especially on a team that’s a three-man show.

  • Maryland is trying to make a play to lay claim to a 7th NCAA Tournament bid for the ACC tonight in a battle with Wake Forest.  Joe Lunardi currently has the Terps as one of the first five teams not included in the Tournament.

  • In NC State’s game against Maryland on Friday night, ESPN’s Jimmy Dykes definitively proclaimed (multiple times) that Maryland had to advance to the ACC Tournament Finals to earn an NCAA Tournament bid.  I don’t have a clue how he can make such a statement so definitively.

  • Poor Virginia Tech.  I truly think that many VPI, Miami & BC fans have been brainwashed into thinking that Duke is the preferred love child of ACC Officials.  Not by a long shot, Hokies.

      • The Charlotte Observer/News & Observer couldn’t be happier of themselves for taking these photos which (I think) they think indicate that Tyler Hansbrough didn’t foul Virginia Tech on the controversial jump ball at the end of today’s game?

        • Am I the only person who recognizes in picture one that Hansbrough is reaching all the way across JT Thompson’s body and his left arm clearly rests on top of Thompsons arm?

        • It sure would be nice to see a “frame by frame” from under the basket from the same angle that the television replay shows Hansbrough’s right hand was clearly planted in the back of Virginia Tech’s JT Thompson.  You can see it in the replay here.  In real time, it appears that a case could be made that Hansbrough grabs Thompson’s jersey to help keep Thompson near.  Kind of like Bobby Frasor’’s hand and arm that is planted in Thompson’s back at the beginning of the play as evidenced in the first couple of pictures.

        • Honest to God, Carolina fans are SO accustomed to watching their team create contact defensively and hand-check that they can’t fathom how pressing your free hand against a player with the ball for five seconds could be viewed as a foul.

        • Here’s a fair question to ask yourself – is there anyone on the planet earth that thinks  if Friday’s situation had been reversed and Hansbrough had been taking the shot that it would not have been called a foul instead of a jump ball?  Anyone?  You know…the man who holds the all-time record for free throw attempts?  Of course not.  That, my friend, is the ACC’s problem.

          • Carolina’s defense – and Tyler Hansbrough, in particular – is just ‘amazing’.  They played 19 minutes of the second half while only ‘committing’ four fouls.

            • Want to see something AMAZING? Take a look at last month’s entry at 850TheBuzz prompted by the whining of Carolina fans that Tyler Hansbrough was being mistreated by ACC Officials. I’m not kidding. You can’t make this stuff up. If you are not from around here, perhaps you can try to understand how miserable it is to have to live with these people – Hansbrough was leading the nation in free throw attempts when the Tarheel fans were whining about him not getting to the free throw line enough.

                • ACC Sports Journal has a great piece about Seth Greenberg’s press conference performance that you can read here.

                • Here’s Greenberg on the 20 to 14 foul disparity, which you could argue was a bit wider given that UNC actually committed two deliberate fouls on the Hokies last possession because the Tar Heels still had fouls to give.

                  “I guess we foul and they don’t,” he said, with maximum sarcasm in his voice.

                  On UNC’s 19 offensive rebounds, many of which came at critical points in the game:

                  “We thought we were doing a good job boxing out. I guess we weren’t boxing out well enough because they just kept jumping and getting the rebounds.”

                  On Hansbrough’s five offensive rebounds:

                  “Obviousy he’s taller, so he just jumped over us and got the rebounds.”

                  Those were a thinly veiled shots at the referees for failing, in Greenberg’s eyes, to call UNC for coming over the back of the Hokies on multiple occasions.

                  Here’s Greenberg’s take on the key call, when Tyler Hansbrough managed to tie up J.T. Thompson, giving UNC the ball with 5.2 seconds remaining and the Tar Heels clinging to a one-point lead:

                  “What I saw doesn’t count, so it makes no difference. The only people that count were the guys wearing striped shirts. What they saw is what happened.”

                  You really had to be there to fully appreciate Greenberg, though. Each answer was delivered in a deadpan, monotone style, with his eyes boring a hole in the podium in front of him.

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                  50 Responses to ACCT Open Thread – Welcome to the ACC, Virginia Tech

                  1. Avid109 03/14/2009 at 8:17 AM #

                    It would be nice to have a coach who would call out the biased officiating in public, but I doubt if we’ll ever have a coach like that.

                  2. TomPack 03/14/2009 at 8:37 AM #

                    Before we start loving on Devendorf and Syracuse let’s remember his apparent problems with thinking women are punching bags. Don’t forget when this happened Boeheim agreed to follow the recommendation of the university’s diciplinary ruling..until the recommendation for expulsion came down and he decided to put him back on the team and give a big FU to everyone who agreed with the ruling. So I cannot pull for as team that thinks beating the hell out of a female is ok as long as you are a starter on the team.

                  3. smile102 03/14/2009 at 8:42 AM #

                    Reading these posts you’d believe that, if a foul was called on TH, VT would have won the game. Who knows; not us. It may have been a good call; we can’t know for sure. The tape shows VT traveling. VT would have the ball out of bounds w/ 5 sec. left: that’s a less than 50% scoring proposition. If Thompson had not intercepted the pass intended for another, that VT player would have had a wide ass open 3 attempt. So VT contributed to their failing on this play. A missed goal tending call a minute before would have had UNC up 3… and the game would have played out differently. How, we can only speculate, but our what ifs are only fantasy. You can’t change one event in history and expect the rest to play out the same.

                    That said, I believe VT has been disadvantaged by the refs all season against Duke and UNC; seems to be a theme for them.

                  4. smile102 03/14/2009 at 8:46 AM #

                    “Avid109
                    March 14th, 2009 at 8:17 am

                    It would be nice to have a coach who would call out the biased officiating in public, but I doubt if we’ll ever have a coach like that.”

                    I certainly hope not! That would be the height of unsportsmanship and would reflect poorly on him and his school. Greenberg got his point across; I respect him for how he handled it (coat throwing and all).

                  5. smile102 03/14/2009 at 8:55 AM #

                    “the team with baby blue on (they invented that color, btw – just ask them).”

                    No, they’ll tell you God invented it just for them. (The sky was an after thought.)

                  6. redfred2 03/14/2009 at 8:57 AM #

                    smile, if this current state of officiating is not “reflecting poorly”, or even any reflection at all for that matter, on the two schools who OPENLY benefit from it over and over again, and out in PLAIN VIEW, right there, for ALL TO SEE, then how can a single display to the contrary disgrace an entire university?

                    I don’t know where this constant roll over and die crapola comes from, but it seems especially entrenched in the minds of NC State fans as a whole.

                  7. EverettBeez 03/14/2009 at 9:12 AM #

                    Well if I was ready to let it go last night after happy hour, now I am all fired up about the officiating for my saturday. Curses SFN!! The tourny is killing me. I guess I’ve got to pull for FSU now. I’ve got no one left I want to pull for in the SEC. LSU, I guess. And its raining down this way – it’ll be raining in ATL too. Maybe it will leak on the floor and they can call a foul on FSU for that this afternoon.

                  8. ppack3 03/14/2009 at 9:43 AM #

                    Smile – Reasonable. You can’t change one event in history and expect that everything else plays out the same. You can, however, say that if VT has their best player in the game for an extra 8+ minutes in the first half, they would probably have played better.
                    The thing that kills me about the Hand-job call, is that a jump ball used to mean that the defender got BOTH HANDS on the ball! Anyone remember when a reach-in meant that you took one hand and..wait for it…(F-ING) REACHED IN!!!
                    The “subjective” rules are the pain in the ass, to me. It’s like a bunch of Bill Clintons with striped shirts on out there! “That depends on your definition of traveling….” The rules are steadfast. Get in front of your man, and stop, if there’s contact…that’s a charge. Period. But no, we have to make sure that the defender is in the right spot. Oh, and we have to know the intention of the offensive player, BTW! F*#k! Hell, Mays got a bucket on Thursday, AND a charge! Someone please tell me, in what alternate universe can this happen? He got the shot off before there was contact. End of story. Wrong.
                    I have been so close to giving up on the sport, as a whole, but I keep watching for the Pack. But it is like a train wreck. I very rarely watch any other teams play basketball. So, I decide to watch the end of the UNX game yesterday, and this is how I am rewarded.
                    Lastly, I have to say that Duke seemed to get a win yesterday without the referees just giving the game to them. And that must be difficult to do with a team full of McDonald’s All-Americans, huh? Thank you SFN, for allowing me to vent. I feel better.

                  9. smile102 03/14/2009 at 9:48 AM #

                    “PLAIN VIEW, right there, for ALL TO SEE”

                    Not everyone sees it as the threat to The Game as you do, or even see it as an issue. Most people watch a game, accept the outcome and go on w/ their lives. This is not an issue where the public will feel aggrieved and rise up as one to demand the ACC correct this obvious injustice, if only a coach would incite them to do so. There is no proof of this conspiracy only anecdotal evidence, and that is in the eye of the beholder, as evidenced by this thread about a call that may well have been correct. Any change will come from inside the ACC,and I’m confident all coaches are expressing their point of view to the powers in control. It is unfathomable to me that officials are instructed to intentionally make calls to favor a particular school. I readily accept that refs are endowed w/ human traits that may bias their perceptions. Officiating needs improvement. It is demonstrable that traveling no calls are rampant and charges arbitrary, and that is not good for the game.

                  10. redfred2 03/14/2009 at 10:03 AM #

                    They are not sitting around in their zebra shirts making plans to screw someone out of a ballgame, and
                    there is no conspiracy. I’m not claiming that, and I never have. What I’m saying is that it is a fact of life. That there is a WELL ESTABLISHED heirarchy, and if there is a call to be made, that even in the heat of the battle, and just for a nano second in the back that the official’s brain, he recognizes that hierarchy and just naturally gives creed to it.

                    AND, there is no immediate fix for something like that. But, there comes a time when it gets so out of hand that it does very much need to be brought to their attention. So that MAYBE, they will become aware that they are doing it in the first place.

                  11. Trip 03/14/2009 at 10:08 AM #

                    I don’t have much to add to this, other than… that picture of Hansbra is amazing.

                    (Btw: Officials suck.)

                  12. wufpup76 03/14/2009 at 10:36 AM #

                    I’m kind of an idiot. (Ok, maybe a total idiot).

                    But the call that drove me out of my mind yesterday was actually the “charge” call on Vassallo where Ellington got in front of him on a fast break, there was contact, Ellington keeps moving and does not fall down etc., and there was an emphatic charge call. Not sure I’ve ever seen a more blatantly obvious bad call. And I guess I’m mistaken, but I thought that was his second foul.

                    Anyway, I meant that paticular call – not the one highlighted in Giglio’s post and that I pulled out above … (serves me right for not paying attention).

                  13. Garrett 03/14/2009 at 10:44 AM #

                    IMO, that video shows it all. The view from behind hansjob shows BOTH of his hands on thompson as the whistle blew = foul. And wufpup, that ‘charge’ had me fuming yesterday too. Ellington jumped in the air and got the charge call..wtf?

                    But i digress. We all know acc officials suck to the utmost degree when duke and especially unc are involved (and sometimes with neither involved). I’m not gonna let that ruin ‘Super Saturday’. Should be a great day of college basketball.

                    And the Noles take down the Holes today. Mark it down. I hope.

                  14. Ed89 03/14/2009 at 10:45 AM #

                    If you look at the replay of our home game with Maryland a couple of weeks ago, after a particular call against State, at the next time out, Gary Williams took one of the referees to the side and talked with him (another thing that irks me is the way some coaches seem always to talk like buddies with some of these refs). Anyway, after that time-out, that exact same ref called 4 or 5 fouls (2 VERY questionable) on State in the span of about 4 minutes. It was blatant, and it was right after he had a little conversation directly with Gary. I don’t remember his name but he was the gray-haired one. I don’t know if we’ll ever find a Donahey in the ACC, but there is definitely bias (Les Jones is one of the worst). The NBA has lost all credibility with me. Does anyone think Donahey was the ONLY ref involved in any wrong-doing? I’ve thought for years that it was rigged almost as bad as the WWF, and I still don’t understand ANYONE that would pay for a ticket to watch the it. Or watch it on TV for that matter. The ACC refs are now making ACC basketball more and more similar to the NBA, and my interest is waning.
                    Like Rick mentioned earlier, they have too much control in the outcome of a game.

                  15. beowolf 03/14/2009 at 10:47 AM #

                    Dogbreath
                    March 13th, 2009 at 8:21 pm · Edit

                    I’ve been fairly indifferent about college basketball for about 6 years now, but I am officially done with it. Between NC State disbanding our program 20 years ago, and what we have witnessed with the NWAification, I have much better things to do with my precious time.

                    That is exactly where I am.

                  16. wolfonthehill 03/14/2009 at 11:30 AM #

                    smile – It’s not that one call at the end. That one was honestly a toss-up, but there’s little question that, were the roles reversed, Psycho goes to the foul line.

                    No, more egregious were the calls much earlier in the game that (1) put Vassallo and Allen in foul trouble, taking them off the court, and (2) led directly to possessions taken from Va Tech, and in some cases completely changing the momentum and tone of the game. In particular, two of the charges called on Va Tech were grossly incorrect… I mean, not even close… the principles of defensive position and verticality were completely ignored, and officials who fail to make such obvious calls correctly should be suspended or dismissed. Problem is – when those calls help the Untouchables, the ACC is happy about it… so nothing will be done.

                  17. Sw0rdf1sh 03/14/2009 at 11:57 AM #

                    All I can say is Greenburgs daughter is almost as banging as the VT trainer. I wonder if she talks as dirty as Pops?

                    My mind immediately flew into the gutter as our basketball season was suddenly disrupted.

                  18. BSIE80 03/14/2009 at 12:27 PM #

                    Duke did get a major no call in first half yesterday.
                    Henderson had received 2 early fouls and rode the bench most of the half got away with a charge- no call. I couldn’t believe a call wasn’t made, until I realized it was Henderson. The refs decided to not make the call because that would give him 3 and he would have went straight to the bench.

                  19. ncsslim 03/14/2009 at 12:31 PM #

                    No tears here for VaT. It sucks, but at least with raving lunatic Greenberg, they get their share (see our visit to Blacksburg). We don’t; not ever. And our fan base is so used to seeing it that they’ve generally become oblivious, unless it occurs on the last f’n play of the game (I’m not only talking about the poor sheep who’s world would be irreversibly destroyed by the mere possibility of a flawed authority figure, i.e., referree, coach, AD etc…).

                    My wife says I’m just biased; I refer to an old quote, “just because you’re paranoid don’t mean they’re not out to get you”…. Otherwise, explain the saga of Larry Rose; how many officials get drummed out of a league because of a psychotic vendetta against one team/coach?

                  20. BoKnowsNCS71 03/14/2009 at 12:34 PM #

                    I am just as frustrated with the basketball program (or the lack of one) as the next guy (unless that guy is Lee Fowler). Although not a HWSNBN fan, my initial reaction when he chose to jump programs was “Oh Crap”. And that was because I realized that like those years after V left, the program was destined for 3-5 years of bad basketball. As expected, we lost recruits and Sid has had to make do by trying to recruit some real athletes. When he got a good one, the kid was one and done and now playing pro ball.

                    I believe we have a top 25 recruiting class this year. I believe it will be as good or better next year. But if Sid gets canned — we are going to lose another year or two of recruits and slide even farther behind.

                    Just my 2 cents.

                    So I’m not on the “fire Sid” band wagon. I think he needs 2 more years (just like Coach K got) to show what he can do.

                  21. fullmoon1 03/14/2009 at 6:52 PM #

                    Amen BoKnows, I think if we fire Sid we are looking at 4-5years for someone to build it up. Yes, I am frustrated, sure Sid sometimes puzzles me BUT, I think there is a method to his madness like the junk defense on Wake. I think there are numerous issues with the athletic program that extend up into the highest ranks of the administration but I think Sid can build what we are looking for, for what it;s worth.

                  22. 61Packer 03/14/2009 at 8:21 PM #

                    “So I’m not on the ‘fire Sid’ band wagon. I think he needs 2 more years (just like Coach K got) to show what he can do”

                    I wish I had that kind of confidence in Sid but I just don’t anymore. I’m on that bandwagon because I believe that salvaging the NC State program is more important than making an ACC-caliber coach out of Sidney Lowe.

                    2 more years of what we’ve had for the the last 3? Are you serious?

                  23. Wulfpack 03/14/2009 at 8:28 PM #

                    It does NOT take 4 or 5 years to build a solid program. There are examples all over the college basketball landscape where more is being done with less. If a coach knows what he’s doing, it’s evident by year 2.

                  24. Ed89 03/15/2009 at 7:20 AM #

                    Fire Gillespie @ UK? Fire Turgeon @ A&M? Every situation is different. Sid will get at least 2 more years. And, if at that point we get “2 more years of what we’ve had for the the last 3? Are you serious?”, then we can talk about going in a different direction. I think Sid could’ve thrown the Big 3 under the bus, and played all his guys in looking for the future, but he did not. He actually should be commended for that. I think he is building a program and looking for the long haul. All three are scheduled to graduate, as is T.Ferg, I believe. Simon Harris has already graduated. That is what most parents want to hear when a Coach walks into a recruit’s living room.

                  25. redfred2 03/16/2009 at 7:40 PM #

                    Smile102, sorry, this is a very late reply

                    “Not everyone sees it as the threat to The Game as you do, or even see it as an issue. Most people watch a game, accept the outcome and go on w/ their lives.”

                    So smile, let’s back up a minute here.

                    If I’m reading you correctly, then there really is NO “THE GAME”. There’s “a” game, the one that’s WIDE OPEN to anyone’s whimsical interpretation of the rules on any given afternoon or evening. I see what you’re telling me now.

                    But there is NO “THE GAME”, with a written set of rules that EVERYONE should at least make a blind stab at upholding, now is there?

                    I gotcha pal. Be sure to keep quite about any blatantly bad calls in the future, because remember what you said, it’s all WIDE open to ANYONE’s interpretation.

                    Oh yeah, I know they’re out of conference now, and the officiating crews won’t be the same as the ACC, but try not to miss the next time unc or Duke play as well, a guy like you should especially enjoy those games .

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