More Fun With Rankings- ACC Coaches

Here’s something to play with on a Thursday morning in August. Our favorite ESPN ACC blogger is at it again. (I suppose I’m using a “neutral” favorite there– neither a compliment nor in the perjorative.) Since we had so much fun with the stadium rankings, here is a ranking of the ACC coaches.

Now, these lists are rather subjective, but there are some things that are just common-freaking-sense. Like using a set of parameters to rank one coach (Cutcliffe) #4– FOUR! in the ACC and not applying the same standards to Paul Johnson. A few more of these, and I’ll dub Heather the Courtney Fells of bloggers– maddeningly inconsistent. Tom O’Brien is listed 6th in this list. While the positioning give or take (well, give) a spot or two is fine, some of the names above and below are curious.

Of course, ask some BC fans and TOB should be dead last– so like I said, these things are somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

Still, I leave you with: David Cutcliffe?? Maybe he got another Manning we don’t know about yet…

About Dr. BadgerPack

NCSU Class of 99 and PhD University of Wisconsin, 2006... Which should adequately explain the screen name I chose at 2am one Saturday...

General NCS Football Rankings & Lists Tom O'Brien

43 Responses to More Fun With Rankings- ACC Coaches

  1. Sw0rdf1sh 08/07/2008 at 7:31 AM #

    This list is just about as ridiculous as the Stadium Ranking opinion piece she put out. I’m not just hating on the smurfs, but there is no way BMFD and his NFL Head Coaching experience puts him above the likes of Friedgen or even Bowden….I’ll keep my TOB man love out of it to stay fair.

    Best thing BMFD ever did in the NFL he did with the Cowboys and Jimmy Johnson…..but does that make him a better college coach? His Cleveland experience pretty much defined him in my eyes. He took over the Miami team after Erickson helped get them some problems, but also when the FL teams were in their “prime” and all the top in state players didn’t go out of state to other places. He did a great job recruiting and I think only one losing season, but he pretty much didn’t have much resistance to the other out of state teams. Let’s see how he does with another team before you place him on a pedestal and call him Supreme Commander.

    Cutliff being that high amoung all the others does seem a little silly. I will give him props for his record at Ole Miss and I do admire the man. I like the way he left Ole Miss and stood his ground, and he as been a great OC…let us see how he turns around the Blue Devils before we put him way up that list.

  2. BJD95 08/07/2008 at 8:04 AM #

    Here’s a relatively sane ranking, based on how the coaches currently function (i.e., Bobby Bowden now, not in his prime):

    1. Frank Beamer – clearly the best.
    2. Jim Grobe – clearly the heir apparent to the top spot. Want to know how a great AD can make a difference? Grobe is still at Wake because of Brad Wellman.
    3. Tom O’Brien – proven winner looking to take the next step. Balanced as a tactician and recruiter.
    4. Tommy Bowden – fantastic recruiter, average tactician.
    5. Butch Davis – Tommy Bowden lite.
    6. Bobby Bowden – Like Greg Maddux, he’s a sure Hall of Famer. Like Greg Maddux, he’s well past his prime and now league-average at best.
    7. Paul Johnson – Extremely accomplished at lower level of competition, big wildcard. Unlike Cutcliffe, was not fired from previous job.
    8. Ralph Friedgen – The shine is wearing off fast.
    9. David Cutcliffe – Had some success at Ole Miss, but he WAS fired, and had to settle for the worst BCS job in the land. As opposed to Johnson, who was able to hold out for a much better job (GT).
    10. Randy Shannon – No real reason to expect him to succeed, although he hasn’t proven conclusively awful.
    11. Al Groh – setting up for an Amato-like fall. Has a similar ego and less sanity.
    12. “Jags” – A complete “reach” hire, will do nothing without Tom O’Brien’s players. Last year, BC was two stunning individual plays by Matt Ryan away from being 4-4 in a weak ACC. Ryan’s gone now.

  3. ChuckAllYall 08/07/2008 at 8:08 AM #

    very nice BJD.

  4. whitefang 08/07/2008 at 8:17 AM #

    This list is even more ridiculous than the stadium list. I tmeans absolutely nothing. There are 6 coaches that have one season or less in the ACC I believe. Put Beamer and Grobe 1 and 2, with the others tied for third because none of the remaining have either done enough (recently Bobby) or been in the ACC long enough to be ranked ahead of any of the others.

  5. Noah 08/07/2008 at 8:26 AM #

    If Al Groh is the 11th worst coach in the league, the ACC has some pretty good coaches. I’m not saying that list is wrong, I just don’t think Groh is as terrible as people think. I’d probably put Fridge at 5th on BJD’s list.

  6. RickJ 08/07/2008 at 8:41 AM #

    Assistant coaches are such a big part of the equation when evaluating coaches, particularly in football. I like our staff and we have the same coaches coaching the same positions from last year during a year of a lot of turnover in the league. Hopefully this will work to our advantage.

    Not that it matters but I will always believe that if Amato had patterned himself after Bobby Bowden and stayed above the fray and let his original staff work independently, it might have turned out differently. In my opinion, Amato’s last staff wasn’t anywhere near as good as his first.

  7. Dr. BadgerPack 08/07/2008 at 8:41 AM #

    I like your list BJD. I may have switched a couple around, but at least you provide sound reasoning for your choices. My biggest beef with Heather’s is the credit afforded Cutcliffe for his stint at Miss; where virtually all of his success coincided with Eli Mannings tenure (sounds like… hmm… Amato). Johnson got pretty much no credit for what can be argued is a bigger coaching success at Navy.

    When you look at some of the names on this list (Groh, O’Brien, Cutcliffe for example) you probably fall into one of two camps: emphasizing “best seasons,” or placing more emphasis on current success. Not surprisingly, most coaches have elite seasons with NFL caliber Quarterbacks (Schaub, Ryan, Manning, etc.). The best measure I would think– and this is echoed in BJD’s list– is how these coaches fare WITHOUT an elite Quarterback; heck, without a BCS caliber Quarterback. Grobe, well- enough said. I’ve touched on Cutcliffe/Manning. O’Brien was winning before Schaub, and he won 5 last year with QBs that might not have seen the field in the MAC. Even Bowden won with some less than desirable QBs. Of course, he had elite defenses- but, we have seen that average/below average QB + elite defense doesn’t equal the kind of success he had in the past (see: Amato, Chuck).

  8. Old School Wolf 08/07/2008 at 8:48 AM #

    My only filter for ranking coaches is whether I would want my son or relative to play for a coach . The overall “character” of the program the coach oversees is paramount. Clearly Grobe and TOB would be first choices. Johnson and Cutcliffe are possibilities. This brings to a close the ranking list of ACC coaches as far as I am concerned and is admittedly based on public perception and not first hand knowledge.

  9. vtpackfan 08/07/2008 at 8:48 AM #

    I suck. First there was the click on this post (not bad actually) then I clicked on piece of shit written by this sports journalist who is obviously just expected to make deadlines.

    If ESPN ever increases their integrity then she would to a welcome hire working for NCSU AD.

    DBP: If it wasn’t the dead period, I probably wouldn’t have linked this– but hey, we can always use something to talk about (and it is football preseason afterall). Heather Dinich, if she keeps up this “quality,” may move herself into Gregg Doyle status though. That’s hard to do.

  10. BJD95 08/07/2008 at 8:49 AM #

    I have always found Al Groh to be a buffoon – perhaps that assessment is prejudiced a bit by memories of his NYJ press conferences.

    The Fridge has been treading water for quite some time now. I debated putting him at #7 in front of PJ. In truth, there’s not much difference between slots 5-8.

    You could break them out in tiers:

    Slots 1-2: Excellent.
    Slots 3-4: Very solid.
    Slots 5-8: OK, mix of strengths and weaknesses.
    Slots 9-10: Unproven, skeptical of future success.
    Slots 11-12: Disasters waiting to happen.

  11. Wulfpack 08/07/2008 at 8:51 AM #

    Jim Grobe – has done more with less than anyone in the country
    Frank Beamer
    Bobby Bowden
    Tommy Bowden
    TOB
    Paul Johnson
    Butch Davis
    Al Groh
    David Cutcliffe
    Ralph Friedgen
    Jags
    Randy Shannon

  12. Wolf-n-Atl 08/07/2008 at 9:07 AM #

    BJD-

    I think it is wrong to put Al Groh that low especially after the way their team overachieved last year. I think you are expecting them to fall this year, which may happen ~ but you have to wait until the year is over for that.

  13. Dr. BadgerPack 08/07/2008 at 9:10 AM #

    I could really fuel the fire with this– but I am not sold on Grobe as a coach, per se. Undoubtedly, he can spot raw talent that slips through the cracks. Certainly, he has a good plan– redshirt pretty much everyone for example. And all indications are he’s nothing but a class guy.

    I’d like to see if his system works over an extended time though. Are the last two seasons a function of “right players, right time?” Does the misderection offense continue to work? Does the defense continue to be solid.

    I guess my main question is, with all the R-So, R-Jr, R-Sr players, is the year of weight training, study providing the edge (afterall, this is a physical sport). If that is indeed the case, if other coaches move towards mass redshirting, will Wake come back to “early Grobe” status?

    I’d still rank Grobe high for now; he’s been darn good the last few years (and seems to beat up on State). But I’d also watch with interest over the next few seasons.

  14. packalum44 08/07/2008 at 10:17 AM #

    this dumb broad is starting to tick me off. and that statement is greatly watered down to a family-friendly version. umm, wtf is she doing? how much money do they pay her? i hope she gets paid in mcdonald’s coupons and monopoly money b/c she is an idiot. do u ever see straight men writing fashion columns? no! enough said. i hate her. i’m not even going to waste my time to point out her faults.

  15. vtpackfan 08/07/2008 at 10:58 AM #

    Dr. BP

    No doubt that Grobe deserves a heaping load of praise for nothing else besides this is WF football we are talking about.

    Devils advocate can and should be used in considering him the cream of the crop though. The ACC as a whole STINKS. It has been the worst BCS conference, IMO, since FSU fell off the map. She is ranking the BEST ACC coaches so I can understand that logic, but I just can’t figure out why ACC parity is mostly formed out of mediocrity.

    I could inflame even more people who put him so hi on a pedestal that some of the OL trapping blocks are ….ummm shall I say spinless.

    Notice new rule starting in ’08.
    A chop block is defined as a high-low or low-high combination block by any two players against an opponent (not the runner) anywhere on the field, with or without a delay between contacts

    If this is actually enforced look for Josh Adams to actually have to shed tacklers for the first time since he was a CARY gIMP.

  16. PhilipRiversWannabe 08/07/2008 at 11:12 AM #

    BDJ, decent list. But there are so many recent coaching hires, i think we will have a better evaluation in a year or two. We will find out how good Grobe is after this season. WF will lose 8 starters on defense (2 DL, 3 LB, 3 in the secondary). TOb will continuw to climb the list. Jags will fall. Johnson is boom or bust. Same for Shannon. He can recruit, but can he be effective as anything other than a D Coordinator. I think Cutcliffe will make Duke at least decent. Tommy Bowden’s teams always choke under pressure. BB’s is past his prime, but FSU always has the talent to compete with anyone. Butch is overrated. good recruiter, but averaeg technician like u said. Beamer is a good coach. Groh is decent. The fridge needs to get his act togrther. he started out hot, but has been fading the past few years.

  17. Elrod 08/07/2008 at 11:25 AM #

    The only way BMFD should even smell the top half of this list is if he is credited with being crafty enough to parlay 4 wins into a $291k raise.

  18. PackerInRussia 08/07/2008 at 12:42 PM #

    Unfortunately, Heather Dinich has been the author of every ACC Football piece on ESPN since the stadium rankings (maybe before that; I just didn’t notice). Most of them have been rankings of some type–most clutch players past/present, etc. Hope you either don’t like ESPN or like her as a writer. After the stadium article, I don’t look forward to reading ACC-related articles on ESPN.

  19. choppack1 08/07/2008 at 1:14 PM #

    Right now, it’s an absurd excercise to rate the ACC coaches. In a 12 team league, only 6 coaches – Beamer, Grobe, Fridge, Groh and the Bowdens – have been at their job more than 1 season.

    Cutcliffe and Johnson are in their first season. TOB, Jags, Shannon, and Davis all are entering their second year.

    In the first group, I’d rate them as follows:
    Beamer
    Grobe
    Tommy Bowden
    Ralph Friedgen
    Bobby Bowden
    Al Groh (And I actually think Groh has done an OK job – they’ve got a decent winning % for his tenure there.)

    Of the 2nd year coaches, I’d rate them as follows:
    TOB
    Butch
    Jags
    Shannon

    There is absolutely no telling what PJ will do at GaTech. I think they’ll struggle for 2008, but look out in the future. If his results are similar to the ones he’s had elsewhere, look for Tech to win at least 1 ACC championship in the next 5 years.

    I think Cutcliffe is OK. I have to wonder w/his age – and the fact that he isn’t a gimmick coach. (I think a gimmick coach would fare better at Duke.) Much of his success depends on what kind of students Duke wants to allow.

  20. SaccoV 08/07/2008 at 6:18 PM #

    Agreed with everyone else that these lists suck and are so inaccurate, it’s difficult to determine any intelligent brain activity in those that list them (especially when employees of ESPN are the catalysts). The bookends are exactly correct (with perhaps the flip-flop of Beamer and Grobe, and Shannon at the end because of inexperience); however, my problem is with Butch Davis anywhere in the top 7 of this list. Butch has had some good seasons at Miami and a fair second season (2002-2003) in Cleveland (where they made the playoffs for the last time as a franchise). Knowing his actual record at UM (51-20, 1 sole Big East title (2 ties in 95-96 and 96-97) including the great year in 2000 (11-1 with a win over Florida in Sugar Bowl), isn’t Butch just living off of his ability to recruit players in southern Florida? Although I believe Miami was screwed in 2000 for not getting an opportunity to play for the national championship, I don’t see how Butch has put himself above the other coaches in this league. Cutcliffe also is absurdly high. Winning mid-tier bowl games with an eventual Super Bowl-Champion NFL QB isn’t that tough, just ask Chuck Amato. Mississippi tied for the SEC West Division title ONCE and never made it to the SEC Championship game in six seasons. Final point, why doesn’t TOB get some of the same “wins-with-less” publicity that Jim Grobe gets?

  21. gopack968 08/07/2008 at 6:35 PM #

    I had some hope after this foolish ESPN person responded favorably to criticism of her stadium nonsense – and revised her rankings. I was wrong… Subjective rankings like this are the refuge of a writer without talent or the inside-program connections to write actual stories that have… uhhh… facts and content. What, no story ideas the first week of training camp???

    Nice list BJD!

  22. PackScout 08/07/2008 at 7:04 PM #

    I don’t buy for a minute Butch Davis is a better coach than Tom O’Brien. Also, I’ll take Tob O’Brien’s assistant coaching staff over Butch Davis’s anyday. This is typical ESPN spin hoping to glorify Carowhina football. I would move Al Groh up some and David Cutcliffe down some.

  23. PackerInRussia 08/07/2008 at 9:34 PM #

    “Subjective rankings like this are the refuge of a writer without talent or the inside-program connections to write actual stories that have… uhhh… facts and content. What, no story ideas the first week of training camp???”

    To be fair, there have been several “rankings” articles in the past several weeks that rank various things from each conference, so it’s obviously a thing ESPN is mandating. Heather Dinich just happens to be the author of all of the ones about the ACC. But, yes, your point is pretty much true. (although she did give PR love in the ranking of top clutch performers)

  24. choppack1 08/07/2008 at 10:10 PM #

    SACCO – Grobe has an ACC title – that’s why.

  25. packbackr04 08/08/2008 at 7:41 AM #

    so the football unis have changed, and are on sale at the bookstores. they look good (TOB dropped the atlanta falcons look)…. any word on the bball unis? i thought sid wanted to change them as well.

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