Davis Won’t Play for State

Since most of the readers of StateFansNation (“The graduate level NC State Website”) are a little more experienced in the real world than the readers of other sites…let’s play a little “real world” hypothetical this morning —-

Let’s assume for a moment that you own a company.

One of your account officers makes a key sale for the company. In the sale the new client signs a contract committing the client to provide certain services for the next four years. You are restricted by law to having less than fifteen clients at any one time, so the commitment of the new client is very important.

After the new sale is signed, sealed and delivered and you have begun making arrangements and planning around the new client, the account officer who signed the deal accepts leaves your company to accept a new job with a competitor.

The new client, who signed his/her contract with YOUR COMPANY – not the account officer – suddenly claims that they are uneasy with their agreement and would like to take their business elsewhere.

Question: As a prudent manager of your business, do you allow the new client to freely ignore his commitment and simply waltz into the horizon without exercising any of the penalty clauses availability to you in the signed contract?

FORMER NC State recruit, Larry Davis, has decided to forego his commitment to NC State and join Seton Hall and their new coach, Bobby Gonzalez. (Link)

In the summer of 2005, the 6-foot-3 shooting guard who played at New York’s Christ the King High School committed to N.C. State, the first school he had visited.

“I really don’t know coach Lowe,” Davis said. “He’s not going to be here in June. It’s just not good going into a new thing like that, not knowing what you’re getting into.”

Davis is a nice player who barely averaged 14 points a game in high school and was barely ranked around the #100 HS players in the country. A case could be made that if Larry Davis is playing signficant time for NC State in three or four years, then our program isn’t where it will need to be or where we hope that it will be.

The big issue around this situation now is NC State’s (yet to be determined) decision to grant Davis a full release or a partial release where he would be required to sit out a year before becoming eligible to play at Seton Hall. In recent years, the NCAA has been more lenient in allowing petitioning players to transfer without having to sit out a year.

But…from NC State’s perspective…Is there really a choice here?

OF COURSE State should only grant a partial release and make the kid have to go through the NCAA’s appeals process to be allowed to play immediately.

From State’s selfish perspective:

* The kid didn’t even afford Sidney Lowe the opportunity to meet with him face to face. (Does Seton Hall really have that many other kids right now to whom they are trying to give this extra scholarship?)

* Also, it was pretty evident, even mistakenly printed in local newspapers in New Jersey, that Seton Hall was illegally contacting Davis long before NC State granted him a conditional release to talk to other schools.

It is UNACCEPTABLE that NC State would support this kind of behavior from the kid and from Seton Hall by just rolling over and being complicit in this bullshit.

But, there is a lot more to this and Larry Davis.

Human beings react to incentives; give someone enough incentive or disincentive and you can create the behavior that you desire. (See Freakanomics). NC State MUST be smart enough here to signal to Dan Werner or Dennis Horner that DISINCENTIVE EXISTS FOR THEM TO CONSIDER BACKING OUT OF THEIR LETTERS OF INTENT.

Most schools do NOT give kids that sign with them a change of heart because of a coaching change a full release. NC State should not either. If they want to go so badly, then let them all know that they will have to go through the hassle, the time and the process and deal with the NCAA for a full release.

Basketball Recruiting General NCS Basketball

95 Responses to Davis Won’t Play for State

  1. Lock 05/26/2006 at 11:12 AM #

    Typical of what, I wonder? Must we go for barely-hidden insults here?

    Though I find being considered a ‘class act’ and a ‘good guy’ to be something less than insulting. Some might even see it as ‘attractive’ and ‘a good thing in a university.’

    We initiated things by changing the conditions which the kid had signed up for. Again, I know what the LOI says, doesn’t mean I have to agree with it.

    What’s best for our school is not what’s most important here. What’s best for this kid is.

    Sure, I would have rather it played out differently, and if SH’s coach committed a violation, throw the book at him. This kid didn’t do anything wrong, in my opinion.

  2. Rochester 05/26/2006 at 11:25 AM #

    This is a little complicated because you’re talking about human beings, not just basketball players. I can understand Davis being concerned about the change in administration, etc. But I agree with SFN. Was Seton Hall going to pull their offer if he waited until July? Unlikely. If he didn’t have the courtesy to wait until he could meet with Lowe he can spend the next year honing his skills in practice.

    If he had waited and met with Lowe and still decided he didn’t want to come to State, I’d say give him the full release. Better that than have him come and grumble for a year just to transfer later. But he didn’t, so the partial release seems fair. Why have rules in place if they’re never going to be used or enforced?

    Think about that rule during the first semester, when Trevor Ferguson is sitting on our bench. He had to sit out a year after leaving Pitt. Slightly different circumstances, but no one waived it for him.

    As for Werner and Horner, I hope they both come. At a minimum we need enough guys to run a practice. I’m liking Horner more all the time, though, because he doesn’t seem to be wavering in his commitment.

    On the bright side, think of the possibilities of what we could do with that scholarship once Lowe gets going on the recruiting trail. The bar will be “Better than Davis.” Certainly doable.

  3. NeverGiveUp 05/26/2006 at 11:29 AM #

    Doesn’t the kid talking to SH before we NCSU allowed it violate the LOI contract? If so, I’d say the kid did do something wrong.

  4. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 05/26/2006 at 11:40 AM #

    Letters of Intent are to the university not to the coach. I understand the comment that he agreed to play for Sendek but that is not true. Larry Davis’ LOI is was commitment to play for NC State Not Herb.

  5. Lock 05/26/2006 at 11:42 AM #

    Rochester: Good points…I see where you’re coming from. I still feel the same as I did before…but it’s nice to see a reasonably-toned argument for the enforcement of the letter of the law, so to speak.

    I thought SH contacted the kid…of course, if the kid did something wrong himself, then my opinion totally changes. But I don’t count wanting to explore his options after we changed coaches as something wrong.

    *shrugs* Just my opinions, though. I wish him well; the best years of his life are coming up. (He IS a kid, not a commodity.)

  6. class of 74 05/26/2006 at 11:45 AM #

    Remember, if we take the hard line you signed a contract approach this too will be used against us by other schools in future recruiting. We should want only those guys who are truly committed to NCSU basketball.

  7. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 11:50 AM #

    Unlike last year, we won’t have to worry getting our ass’s trounced by an unranked Seton Hall team. If we meet them again they will probably be ranked higher that NCSU anyway, especially if Cedric Simmons is gone to the NBA. Wait a minute, Bobby Gonzales hasn’t contacted Simmons too, has he? That’s fine, it wouldn’t be suitably proper to hold even Simmons back at this point.

    Lee Fowler is still digging a hole, trying to placate everybody on every level, just to cover up his own unorganized fiasco. If anyone thinks that these guys would be seeking other options if Sidney Lowe wasn’t coaching in the NBA and was in Raleigh right now, they need to think again. Lee Fowler is going to eliminate the one thing that Herb Sendek had going in a positive direction. Sidney Lowe’s job is getting tougher and tougher every day. There will soon be a need to build totally from scratch if Lee Fowler and his guilt complex don’t soon get the hell out of the picture.

  8. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:04 PM #

    Wow. SFN. You totally missed this one.

    What you miss is that this does not happen in a bubble. All of this happens in front of all the future clients you hope to gain in the following years. And all of the future clients completely and totally relate to the subject client and would most likely want to have the right to do the exact same thing if the new account officer in charge was undesirable. Now, if you refuse to allow this client to take this course of action, you are telling every single future client out there that this could happen to you as well if you do businees with us (dont think that every single competitor wont yell this to the moutaintops), and you seriously damage the reputation of your company for many, many years to come. You have to remember that everything you do is a sales pitch of your company, and its not about one client. Its about the long standing success of the company.

    You are DEAD wrong as regrading ‘most schools’ not allowing a full release. In fact, it has already happened this year with several high ranking recruits. Scott Reynolds at Oklahoma for one. Manhattan has also lost recruits this year. In fact, it is the norm rather than the exception. It is simply part of the process of replacing a coach. I’m not sure how anyone could not be aware of that.

    As far as the quality of Larry Davis on the court, its a shame people choose to bash a kid if he changes his mind. He a a solid player. One of the top players in NYC on one of the top 5 teams . He scores only 14 because he was so unselfish during the year. The only reason he dropped in the rankings was because of an off the court incident that has turned out to be more the fault of a NYC official and Davis’ family.

    It really misses the point to lash out at Davis on this. The blame falls entirely on Lee Fowler. And in this case we have the perfect example what a timley hire does for you (Bobby Gonzales at Seton Hall) versus the mess Lee Fowler created. Lee Folwer is a horrible administartor. Horrible. There is no reason to expect anything other than this type of situation if he is allowed to stay. When Lee has the ball, Lee fumbles. That’s just what he does.

  9. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 12:06 PM #

    I am not talking about the hard line, I am talking about rolling over at the very first instance and well before the rules say it is necessary.

    Does Georgetown hate our guts?

    ^”What’s best for our school is not what’s most important here. What’s best for this kid is.”

    You make my point for me. What’s happening at NC State right now will be so much better for the recruits than what they signed up for to begin with. But they won’t have an opportunity to hear about it because every other school out there has the upper hand now.

    We are powerless to defend our position, and THE RULES say we shouldn’t even have to RIGHT NOW!

  10. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:10 PM #

    Link

    Excerpt:

    This time around, after reopening his recruitment in the wake of Herb Sendek’s departure, Davis again acted decisively. On Thursday, he chose Seton Hall, rather than wait to give new Wolfpack coach Sidney Lowe a chance to recruit him. Until Lowe passes an NCAA exam on rules and procedures, he can’t contact recruits like Davis.

    “I really don’t know coach Lowe,” Davis said. “He’s not going to be here in June. It’s just not good going into a new thing like that, not knowing what you’re getting into.”

    You know what? If it was my kid, that’s exactly what I would tell him. They dont know Sidney from a guy on the street. And Sidney is unable to remedy that situation due to NCAA rules that everyone knew long before Herb Sendek departed. Even Lee Fowler.

  11. FL Wolf 05/26/2006 at 12:13 PM #

    For those of you who feel we should take the high road here and do what’s best for the kid…..

    Why doesn’t the NCAA change the rule in the event of a coaching change? To put it back on the schools instead of picking a side.

    The rule is what the rule is. It should be applied fairly across the NCAA and not have schools picking and choosing. This is why these kids think they deserve to change their mind on a whim. And this is why the NCAA has a rule that you cannot be released from an LOI in the event of a oaching change.

    I don’t know about you, but if you were considering NC State last year, certainly you should have considered the potential of a coaching change.

  12. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:16 PM #

    http://www.nypost.com/sports/66604.htm

    “I know Detroit is an excellent team and they might win the [NBA] championship,” Davis said. “To not have a coach there until well into June is terrible and that had an effect on me.”

    This was a perfect storm for us on many fronts with Davis. Not only do we have the mess of Lee Fowler, the siutation with Lowe and the Pistons, the degree issue, we also have Seton Hall hiring a New York City guy. This is not a suprise, and has basically been common knowledge since Bobby Gonzales was signed. The guy is a great coach and maybe a better recruiter.

  13. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 05/26/2006 at 12:18 PM #

    Dan you missed this one. You are right it sets an example before the world. It send the message that if you sign a LOI to NC State it means nothing. The letter states that a coaching change is not an acceptable reason to get out of it. It takes away another scholarship from out team.

    I don’t understand this Herb mentality from anyone that is a fan of NC State basketball.

  14. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:19 PM #

    “Why doesn’t the NCAA change the rule in the event of a coaching change? To put it back on the schools instead of picking a side.”

    The rule isnt that the kid is stuck anywhere. The rule is simply that it is up to the school. No high level program wants to have the PR nightmare of forcing a kid to stay at its school after the only contact he had leaves.

    “I don’t know about you, but if you were considering NC State last year, certainly you should have considered the potential of a coaching change.”

    Absolutely not. Do you thing Larry Davis reads SFN? They dont get Caulton Tudor in NYC. He isnt sindicated in the Times or the Post. And the only real press releases from NC State over recent months and years was the entire NC State administration was solidly behind Herb Sendek.

  15. packlanta 05/26/2006 at 12:20 PM #

    I don’t know what the NCAA timeframe is, but I think NCSU should wait a while before granting full or conditional release. Not only should the kid sweat it, but we need to send a message to other recruits that we granted them a conditional based on the fact NCSU has the last shot. Davis did not wait for that. In fact, if I were NCSU, I might make a first-strike media statement that we were investigating the situation including possible advance contact with Davis not allowed under NCAA rules, and the terms under which the conditional release was granted may have been violated. In the long run we should probably grant Davis an unconditional release, but only after we secure Horner and Werner (or get the last shot).

  16. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 12:21 PM #

    The RULES. It is all within the rules. There is nothing inappropriate or improper about using the rules to your adavantage when you see a strong need to save what you have worked for.

    Maybe Lee Fowler and some of you feel we shouldn’t have the ability to state our side because you don’t really have any confidence in the new staff. I myself, feel that these recruits were just blessed with a ticket back to what NC State basketball actually stands for.

  17. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:25 PM #

    tct,

    Why try and attack someone when they dont agree with you? You guys are mad right now because you feel gilted. This will all come down in the next few months. I suggest people think long term here. Isnt that exactly what was being preached by those wanting Herb gone regardless of the short term consequences?

    And, TCT, this is not the exception regardless of what the article says. It is the norm. And even in the rare case where the recruit isnt given a full release, he almost always gets one on appeal. Everyone at State knows this. And what is the last thing that anyone at State wants right now after the long public embarassment of Lee Fowler looking for a coach? Another PR nightmare. Another loss in an appeals decision.

    Quite frankly, I dont how any Wolfpack fan can think like you? Sidney has to start from scratch and build a recruiting reputation. You want him to harm that before he even gets started over one kid, who quite frankly is acting rationally.

  18. FL Wolf 05/26/2006 at 12:25 PM #

    No one says the kid should be stuck at State.

    This is about does he have to sit out a year at SH like other transfers or does he get a pass to his committment he made to State (and State had so they didnt pursue another recruit in his place).

  19. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:29 PM #

    “I myself, feel that these recruits were just blessed with a ticket back to what NC State basketball actually stands for”

    Red, I feel the same way. But no one is allowed to tell these kids that for another month. Meanwhile, other schools are filling out there rosters. If Davis was going to move he had to do it soon before the roster spots and scholarships were gone. He basically had zero information from Coach Lowe in comparison with Gonzales, and he is forced to make his decision before the NCAA will allow Lowe to even contact him to remedy that.

    This is not Larry Davis’ fault. The blame here resides totally on the situaton here in Raleigh. Now, if you tell me you is to blame for this situation, then you have the guy to blame for Davis not being here. (Hint: His nickname is Jed.)

  20. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 12:34 PM #

    ^Dan

    “No high level program wants to have the PR nightmare of forcing a kid to stay at its school after the only contact he had leaves.”

    I am not asking for that. All I want is for Sidney Lowe and staff to be given a FAIR amount of time, WITHIN THE RULES, to at least talk to these kids at length about what they see as their futures with NC State. That is certainly not too much ask, and it will NOT for crying out loud, change our status with other NCAA members. You over estimate.

  21. duckmanjw 05/26/2006 at 12:38 PM #

    If Fowler releases Davis totally, it will be the only smart move he’s made in this whole process.

    He’s a clown and just hired more clowns to ride around with him in that cramped car. We are deserving of losing all of our recruits! We have a guy that couldn’t complete a degree in 25 years, but is going to be telling kids how important education is to their life. We have become the official laughing stock of the ACC.

    What happens if we make these recruits wait until July 1 to meet Lowe face to face and he fails to complete his degree or pass the rules test?? We essentially make them sit out a year anyway because they’ll be hard pressed to enroll at any school until January.

    Even if Seton Hall did talk to him or vice versa prior to his conditional release, is that more or less of a violation of Lowe already talking to players?? Every article that has come out in recent weeks on Davis, Werner, and Horner have all said either they or their parents have spoken to Lowe. Whereas an article by Delong in the W-S journal this week plainly stated that Lowe requested from the NCAA the ability to speak to the players and their families and was DENIED!!!!

    Do we really want to push compliance at this point?

  22. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 12:41 PM #

    “If Davis was going to move he had to do it soon before the roster spots and scholarships were gone.”

    He had the ability to talk to Seton Hall too early in my opinion. I don’t think he ever felt that NCSU would even so much as say “Wait a minute.”
    He had no pressure or positive influences coming out of Raleigh, and nothing to lose. I definitely do not blame the kid.

  23. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:43 PM #

    ^ Red

    I’m right there with you red. I wanted him to be given time too. Personally I think Sid would have given a hell of a sales pitch. But NCAA rules and the calendar just dont allow enough days for this to happen. Its just impossible. This was the reason people were saying we had to hire someone in a timley manner. Now we did hire someone officially. But, in reality, it is late May and we still have no one that can recruit as a head coach. That’s just the situation. Its not Sid’s fault. Its not Larry Davis’ fault. Its not Dan Werner’s or Dennis Horner’s fault either.

    Davis has to make a decision soon. The spring signing period is over. It is set where it is to allow the insanely slow financial aid process to be in place when the athlete enrolls. Rosters are being filled. Make no mistake, Bobby Gonzales has been pressurig Davis however he can. “We need to make a decision. Its almost June” type stuff. The kid is 18. This might be the biggest decision of his life up to this point. He just doesnt know Sid yet. He hasnt been allowed to get to know him.

  24. Dan 05/26/2006 at 12:45 PM #

    Duck, dont be a flamer. There is no reason to attack Sid. This situation is not his fault.

  25. redfred2 05/26/2006 at 12:48 PM #

    “Do we really want to push compliance at this point?”

    Hell no, it is too late now, we have already set a precedence. Let’s all just sit back watch it swirl further on down the toilet.

    Did I say Sidney Lowe deserves four or five years of fair time to develop the program? Let’s make it seven.

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