Is Fowler Talking Lavin?

About 4 or 5 years ago when Lee Fowler was still relatively new to his position at NC State, a friend of mine whom Fowler knew well had the ‘pleasure’ of spending some time with Fowler. We will call my friend, Mr. X.

(Quotes are paraphrases here since I am only relaying a story from a friend).

Once while having a casual conversation, Fowler hypothetically asked Mr. X, “If Herb wasn’t the coach at NC State, who do you think would be a good replacement?”

Mr. X was excited by the opportunity to have the conversation and casually responded with the obvious fully expecting Fowler to already understand, “I don’t know. I think that most NC State fans think Rick Barnes is a real good fit. State fans have always liked Barnes.”

Imagine Mr. X’s surprise when Fowler responded, “Rick Barnes? The guy at Texas? Hmmmm. I don’t know much about him.”

Mr. X then went on to explain a little about Barnes is NC roots, and his time at Clemson, and of course his standing up to Dean Smith.

After these comments, Fowler then threw out, “What about Steve Lavin? I’m impressed by Steve Lavin and think that he’s getting mistreated at UCLA.”

(At the time Lavin was stil the head coach at UCLA. Despite making 6 straight NCAA Tournaments and five sweet 16’s, Lavin was ultimately relieved of his job after 12 years on the Bruins staff his first losing season (10-19) in 2003. Of course Fowler thought that Lavin was being mistreated; Fowler would have given Lavin a job for life)

When I was told of this story years ago, I just shook my head in horror (and fear) that Lee Fowler may one day execute a coaching search for what will end up being the most important hire in NC State Basketball history.

However, in light of this exchange, you can imagine how unsurprised I was whe Pack Pride’s “Coaching Scoop Update” included a picture of Steve Lavin this morning.

I am going to refrain from saying too much more about Lavin. But, you can take a peak at this link for a little more perspective.

I will leave you with just a couple of general thoughts related to the topic:

(1) Fans have a very bad habit of simply taking a coach’s overall record and latching on to it as if it would be transferrable to other jobs. Steve Lavin had one of the five best basketball jobs in AMERICA. His numbers look generally pretty good when you look at them without framing them against the backdrop of his resource base.

But, UCLA is UCLA…with little competition on the west coast; not to mention that Lavin inherited the program not too long after they won a National Championship. You need to analyze coaches in comparison to what they have done with their resource base. Lavin managed to go 10-19 in this sixth season (whatever happened to building a program?) .

(2) Lavin has been trying to get back into coaching every year since he was fired by UCLA. Nobody has hired him. There is a reason for that. Even more troubling is the fact that despite Lavin’s experience as a top assistant coach at Purdue during Gene Keady’s best seasons, Purdue chose not to offer their job to Lavin when Keady announced his retirement a couple of years ago.

In the end, NC State needs to pay special attention to its brand management (which is something that Lee Fowler’s acceptance of poor performance and years of arguing with the fanbase indicates he can’t comprehend.) Why would NC State want to hire any coach that couldn’t get the job done to the standards of other schools?

Post-script – Read the first comment below for some statistical nuggest of Lavin’s “achievements” while at UCLA.

General NCS Basketball

69 Responses to Is Fowler Talking Lavin?

  1. Mr O 04/07/2006 at 1:38 PM #

    Dan: Why?

    At this point, NC State fans are most likely going to be screaming no matter who we hire. There are going to be critics of every coach outside of Barnes, Wright and Cal. Heck, we criticize Tubby Smith.

    There isn’t a coach we could hire that has as much head coaching experience at one of the top programs in the country.

  2. BJD95 04/07/2006 at 1:39 PM #

    The logic for hiring Lavin would be the same as some other school hiring Sendek – he was over his head when hired, but maybe will do better the next time thanks to maturity and “lessons learned.”

    It makes some sense for a program in the crapper like Arizona State to buy into that, but not NC State, IMHO.

  3. primacyone 04/07/2006 at 1:39 PM #

    Wait. Wait. Wait. I can’t seem to remember. How many NCAA Championships does Rick Barns have? Is that more than Lavin?

    Wait. Wait. Wait. Steve Lavin is exactly who we need. Just look at this blog. Half of us are for him and half against. Just like old times.

  4. Mr O 04/07/2006 at 1:47 PM #

    BJD95: Who makes more sense then? Lavin’s record and experience tops anyone we could hire. Haith, Brady, Laranaga, and Gilespie aren’t anymore attractive in terms of accomplishments or experience. It isn’t like he failed miserably at UCLA. He had a damn good record.

    ASU hired Herb because he is a good coach.

  5. BJD95 04/07/2006 at 2:03 PM #

    I’d take a chance on Gillespie or Haith first. Let’s just hope there is some positive movement on the Calipari front. Maybe the decision makers will become more comfortable after they look into his record a bit more (I know I have).

  6. scoots 04/07/2006 at 2:09 PM #

    If we can’t get Calipari or Tubby, I don’t think Lavin’s too bad. His records for the 1st 6 years at UCLA were 24-8, 24-9, 22-9, 21-12, 23-9, 21-12 before his disasterous 7th year (10-19). Plus, he’s still relatively young & players (recruits) are familiar with him b/c of his ESPN gig. I definitely prefer him or Gillispie over either Brady or Haith.

  7. wolfpacker420 04/07/2006 at 2:13 PM #

    Maybe if we take Lavin, Dick Vitale may give someone else besides unc and duke some love! I can hear it now ” the packs den is awesome baby gotta Love Lavin with a capital L baby”!!!!!!!!!

  8. Mr O 04/07/2006 at 2:16 PM #

    BJD95: Using the word “chance” is something that we all have to realize will be in play if somethign doesn’t happen with Calipari.

    There are really no sure things out there. Heck, even hiring Barnes at 2.5 million would have put expectations so high that he was also a risk.

    Lavin’s record at UCLA doesn’t bother me in the least. The only thing that bothers me is that he has been out of coaching

  9. wolfpacker420 04/07/2006 at 2:18 PM #

    while we are at it why not gary the terp! i figure he is better than hewitt! get real! stay realistic my JimmyV friend

  10. Dan 04/07/2006 at 2:20 PM #

    Lavin failed at UCLA at a time when the Pac 10 was ripe for the picking. When you are at UCLA, you are at the school with the advantage in the conference. You are the big name. As mcuh as I hate it, and as much as I think we can get back on top, NC State doesnt have that same advantage in the ACC at the moment. Do you honestly thing that he can compete in the ACC at NC State.

    He’s Steve Lavin. Nothing special there. He’s more of ESPN analyst than a coach anymore. He drove UCLA into the ground. And deep into the ground. Do you know how bad you have to fail to drive UCLA into the ground in that conference? Hell, if we are going to be hiring ESPN analysts who lost thier coaching jobs, we might as well hire Fran Fraschilla.

    Lavin is a j-o-k-e. There is a reason that fool cant get into coaching anymore. People know that it takes a failure of monumental proportions to cause UCLA to fall that far in that conference.

  11. Jeff 04/07/2006 at 2:34 PM #

    It is amazing how people can post statistics to prove whatever they want.

    MrO, I could not agree more.

    For example, someone could take all of the highlights from UCLA’s biography of Lavin after his 6th season and BEFORE his disasterous 7th season and think that it would look great.

    I completely agree with BJD and some others.

    Lavin’s record at UCLA is NOT TRANSFERRABLE to other schools. It is UCLA!!! Playing in the weak Pac-10 in the 1990s. As the stats that I first highlighted (that included much of his 7th season) indicated — Steve Lavin was the second least successful in UCLA history.

    Proportionally…he did less with more than almost anyone in their history and set almost every one of UCLA’s NEGATIVE records for their worst season ever after inheriting a team that had won the National Championship just a few years prior!!

    I can’t believe some of the rationale about him being a good fit is because he was hired too young at UCLA to succeed so he needs another chance! What am I missing about how three years of NOT COACHING has suddenly made him a better coach!?!?

    He’s wanted to coach for three years and NOWHERE would hire him – not even a school that he previously worked at (Purdue). What is it that some of you know that no other school in the country has figured out about him?

  12. zahadum 04/07/2006 at 4:45 PM #

    Is it me or has the whole tenor of this thing changed in the last day or so? Not so much on this site, as on other sites and media in general.

    Originally, it went something like: Sendek took us from being really bad to being ever so slightly above average. Now we want a coach to take the next step to being genuinely good.

    Whereas now it seems to be: we want a coach to take us to a national title and they better do it within 5 minutes after they are hired or the whole coaching change was a waste. Ok, a bit of hyperbole, but that seems to be the gist of the thinking the past couple days.

    I’m pretty sure none of the regulars here think that, and none of the other Pack fans I know do either. So is this just a disinformation campaign by fans of other schools?

    On another matter, Tudor says there is still about a 20% chance Barnes will say yes.

  13. vtpackfan 04/07/2006 at 5:06 PM #

    He’ s been around Dickie, Digger, and Bilas so long he couldn’t possibly know how the game is played.

  14. db321 04/07/2006 at 6:12 PM #

    zahadum, sadly it isn’t other fans. There are a lot of smart and logical state fans, but there is a small minority of ignorant, immature State fans as well.

  15. Mr O 04/07/2006 at 10:33 PM #

    Jeff: I would have included year 7, but I didn’t see those numbers included. Sure he had a bad year, but so did Coach K during his prime also.

  16. StateFans 04/08/2006 at 11:19 AM #

    db, if we mess-up Calipari (which I hope that we don’t), and there is no other “Top 10” coaching name available (Wright? Tubby? etc?). Then I think that Gillispie is the first of the “not big names” that can keep everyone happy and have a legit shot of building something special.

    More on Lavin from cdhawkin on the Pack Pride board:

    I posted this on the free board but I thought that those on the premium board would be interested as well. I found this somewhere else and I think it is a UCLA fan explaining the firing of Lavin:

    Steve Lavin was fired for the following reasons (not in any particular order):

    (1) Lack of team effort and disciplined play

    (2) Lack of effort and work ethic by both players and coach

    (3) Lack of a coherent defensive scheme (or ANY defensive “scheme”)

    (4) Disorganized mess of an offense with few set plays being run

    (5) Inability of the coach to earn and maintain the respect of his players. One piece of evidence: In the Pac-10 Tournament Quarter-Final overtime victory over #1 Arizona, senior guard Ray Young was aware that Lavin was setting up a play (a rare occurrence in and of itself) for the final seconds of the game. It was widely reported that Young stated in post-game interviews that he ignored the coach and determined that he would get the ball and run his own play for himself. Here’s a quote from the L.A. Daily News story of the game:

    As UCLA coach Steve Lavin instructed his team during a timeout to run a weave play called “Open” around the 3-point line, Young had other thoughts.

    “Lavin’s drawing up some play, but I’m thinking, ‘Forget that,'” Young said. “If I get the ball, it’s going up. …I want the ball. It’s my senior year, we don’t have anything to lose and I’ve been on something of a roll lately. I had to take it on myself.”

    (6) Refusal to hire at least one experienced assistant coach, instead relying only on his equally-inexperienced high-school and college buddies

    (7) Ridiculous and incomprehensible substitution patterns, prompting many a knowledgable basketball analyst to say during games, “I don’t understand the logic of that at all!”

    (8) The past 4 seasons the UCLA finish in the Pac-10: 4th, 3rd, 6th, 6th (tie). Those 6th-place finishes were the lowest EVER for UCLA

    (9) The worst home record in the HISTORY of Pauley Pavillion

    (10) Dwindling attendance, this year averaging about 8,300 per game in the nearly 13,000 capacity building

    (11) Lack of player development. Some point to a couple of players here and there that improved (Matt Barnes, Dan Gadzurick), but in reality, they did their improvement over the summers in instructional leagues and clinics, not through Steve Lavin’s efforts. MANY players of the Lavin era played best in their freshman seasons, and then got WORSE, or at least didn’t get any better (e.g. Jason Kapono, Jerome Moiso, Jelani McCoy, Baron Davis, Ray Young, T.J. Cummings, etc.).

    There are more reasons, but I think you get the idea. Most UCLA fans know there will be no repeat of the John Wooden era, despite the Eastern media’s characterization of us as insisting upon a National Championship banner being hung every year.

    The fact is, we want a team that will be competitive, will contend, and will be IN games to the end, even if we lose. We want a team that will NEVER be blown out by 30-40 points by a mid-level Pac-10 team on a Thursday night and then nights later beat the #1 team in the country on their home court. That kind of inconsistency was more than frustrating! It was just plain ridiculous.

    We want a UCLA team that plays hard, has offensive and defensive philosophies and schemes/plays/plans to implement those philosophies, whose players respect and obey their coach, whose players learn, work hard, and improve, that is respected and taken seriously by other coaches and teams, and that puts itself in a position to win each game.

    I’m so sick and tired of reading articles or hearing statements by people,
    mostly from outside the Los Angeles area, who say things like: “Steve Lavin took UCLA to the Sweet-16 5 times in 6 seasons, something only he and Duke’s Mike K… have done, then has one bad season and gets fired;” or say things like you said, that Lavin was fired because he couldn’t take UCLA past the Sweet-16.

    It’s almost laughable when I read or hear the clueless comments saying that Ben Howland hasn’t done any better than Steve Lavin (going as far as the Sweet-16), so why would UCLA want him? I said ALMOST laughable.

    During this past season’s long losing skein, the L.A. Daily News talked with 20 former UCLA players. Here is one comment from their article: “On one thing, though, there was unanimity: the embarrassment over what they see on the court: a team with no passion, no organization and no sense of pride in themselves orthe program they represent.”

    Before you make assumptions about what’s going on 2500 miles west of you, perhaps you should make an effort to find out the TRUE story. Then you’ll know why we’re so relieved the nightmare of the past 7 years is over.

  17. StateFans 04/12/2006 at 8:49 PM #

    From PP Board:

    still don’t get why you would want him to coach here. His teams underachieved. His teams regressed over the course of his tenure. They played uninspired, disorganized and undisciplined. He had the worst home record in the history of Pauley Pavilion. He finished the lowest in the PAC 10 in the history of the school. He was a good recruiter, but not a good evaluator or good developer of that talent (6 Mc AAs, 3 top 5 classes). He had 3 NCAA violations. He had problems graduating his players. His players lost respect for him. He has had only 1 head coaching job…one in which he was fired from…one in which he got after being turned down for the Long Beach State job. He was turned down for the asst head coach job at Purdue. Since then, he has been an analyst on ESPN. Why would you want him to coach here?

  18. wolfpacker420 04/21/2006 at 5:57 PM #

    thank god fowler is listening to reason. Its about time we get lavin. He only had one bad season and will be a great recruiter since being on espn. Now its time to surround him with a good staff and save our recruits. I can hear it now” you gotta love lavin with a capital L baby!!! Please don’t screw this up!! Lavin isn’t coaching and won’t sell out for a raise. For those who don’t like Lavin get over it or don’t cheer anymore you punks!! including the site administrator.

  19. pacNWPackfan 04/21/2006 at 7:35 PM #

    I have refrained from entering the group of hyperfocused know nothings that seem to get cranked up everytime the media and this site claims things are getting serious about a particular person. I think as a loyal WolfPack fan the best thing is to wait it out and hope for the best. I can no longer resist. This thing has hit nightmarish, and wolfpacker420 you are a bufoonish clown in the background of the nightmare.

    Fowler can’t possibly hire Lavin. Could he possibly be that blind? Anyone who supports Lavin simply did not see his UCLA teams play ball. They were eerily similar in many ways to Herb’s squads only with more wasted talent.

    By the way SFN you do a great job, please continue to remain levelheaded through this ordeal, and please tell me that Lavin is not where we are going to end up.

    Depsite the negativity put forth in this message I remain sure that we are better off than we were a month ago. Let’s toss our hat in the ring with DW.

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