“Five Straight NCAA Tournaments”

“Five consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances”

You hear it all the time. This^ factoid has become this year’s primary and almost exclusive battle-cry of the Herb Sendek Sunshine Squad. It is the foreward written for the 2006 edition of the HSSS Handbook. It is everywhere. You cannot hide from it. And, it is quite an accomplishment…isn’t it?

The HSSS crew certainly thinks so. Mr. Bob Kennell, a former member of the University’s Athletics Council and staunch supporter of Herb Sendek, recently called the achievement “one significant measureable” on the Pack Pride Message Boards. Many may argue that it is the ONLY measureable that plays in Coach Sendek’s favor, but we need clarify the description of the subjective term “significant” that sits in front of “measureable” in Kennell’s statement. (Of course, anyone that closely follows the management style of Lee Fowler wouldn’t be able to control their laughter that suddenly the concept of “measureable” are being introduced to the conversation by a Sendek Supporter. Hilarious)

Coach Sendek is constantly pleading with the fanbase to take a “wholistic view” of situations — except, of course, you were/are supposed to ignore the ‘wholistic view’ of his failure to make an NCAA Tournament appearance in his first five seasons. (Understand how this works?)

The new buzz-phrase mandated for use in the updated-for-the post-season HSSS Talking Points is “whole body of work”. In fact, poor Gary Hahn was on Charlotte sports radio yesterday pleading with folks to take a look at this year’s “whole body of work”. Yet, he failed to mention State’s #51 RPI; 1-5 record vs the RPI’s Top 25 and 3-5 record vs the RPI’s Top 50.

(StateFansNation will be HAPPY to take some detailed looks at the “entire body of work” in the coming days…but, before we do our research we need to know if we are allowed to count those first five seasons of Sendek’s tenure that we have been told didn’t happen and shouldn’t count. I get so confused by all of the shifting of “standards”. Are we to look at the “entire body of work”…or just the parts of the body of work that Fowler/Sendek/Kennell/and crew mandate?)

I struggle with the practice of blanketly drawing conlcusions in a vaccuum without taking the time to look at the ‘accomplishments’ against the backdrop of actual data. It’s easy to conclude that something is “significant” when you so desperately want it to be, and when you don’t have the foggiest idea who it compares to other achievements.

Statistics, achievements & data should be comparatively judged against the achievements of what NC State’s program has shown that it can historically accomplish; what NC State’s direct competition accomplishes; and programs with resources similar to those of NC State accomplish.

So, let’s review NC State’s “Five Consecutive NCAA Tournamant Appearances” in the wholistic spirit of Coach Sendek’s request of reviewing the entire body of work. Just how significant? is this “streak” in which 4 of the tournament appearances had NC State sitting on the bubble in the last two weeks of the season?

Atlantic Coast Conference Comparison
Since the NCAA Tournament expanded to 64 teams in 1985, how does State’s “5 in a row” compare with other streaks of schools throughout the country? Just cuirous, but “wholistically”….How does 5 in 10 years compare with other schools throughout the country?

For the record, the following are NCAA berths of ACC teams in 5 more consecutive seasons:

5 in a row

In the Atlantic Coast Conference — Duke, Carolina, Maryland, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech and Virginia have all BESTED 5 in a row (some have done it more than once) since the tournament expanded in 1985. Heck, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech & Virginia bested 5 in a row with coaches that they then pushed out for not winning enough. IMHO, it doesn’t look like our peers considered this achievement THAT signficant.

How “significant” can an achievement be if the only schools in the ACC who haven’t achieved at least SEVEN IN A ROW are Clemson and Florida State. (and, NC State, of course).

When you step back and look at this parameter of consecutive NCAA streaks more wholistically…the fact that NC State’s Basketball program has failed to attend more than five consecutive NCAA Tournaments in the last 21 years actually highlights how horribly the program has been managed. You know, Herb Sendek’s streak would be longer if Herb Sendek would have made the Tournament before his SIXTH YEAR of coaching Raleigh…but, somehow I am sure none of that is his responsibility.

NCAA Streaks
It is a very nice achievement that NC State is one of only 15 schools that has been invited to the NCAA Tournament in five consecutive seasons. When you hear this factoid, you cannot help but pick-up on the inference that NC State is performing in the same level as the top programs in the country. Come on…only 15 schools in the country have been as “consistent” as we have (to manipulate weak schedules into NCAA Tournament Bubble Berths). That is an achievement.

Ironicly, the same folks that claim that they want you to look at the “entire body of work” want you to stop right here. But, we cannot. Let’s take a look at some of the numbers behind the statistic. The following is a table of schools that have made at least five consecutive NCAA Tournament appearances sorted by average seeding in the tournament. Additionally, we have tracked the number of times the school exited in the Sweet 16 or advanced at least to the Elite Eight; the % column is how often team advanced to at least the Sweet 16 in the last 4 tournaments (since the 5th one hasn’t been played).

NCAA Seeds2

Wow! That data does a super job of highlighting the chasm between the performance of NC State and the performance of the other schools.

* State rankes 14th out of 15 in average seed (at least we are better than Southern Illinois!!!)

* State’s “best seed” in the last five years ranks better than only three programs – one of which has made multiple Final Fours and won a recent National Title (Michigan State), and one of which knocked us out of last year’s NCAA Tournament.

* State’s “worst seed” in the last five years is better than only one program – Southern Illinois.

Many in the media are criticizing Wolfpackers for not being happy with making five in a row in light of the company that we keep in this achievement. This is based on the natural assumption that NC State is performing similarly to the other schools. As you can see from the table above, NC State is much more of an anamoly than we are a statistical norm.

In fact, of the 15 schools that have played in five consecutive NCAA Tournaments, NC State is the ONLY school that has failed to advance to at least one Final Eight or won a single conference championship.

I know that this won’t change any of the media’s mind. It also won’t change the minds of those who foolishly believe that making the tournament should be the goal of the NC State program or that just making the tournament provides a legitimate opportunity to win it despite evidence to the contrary.

But, perhaps this holistic look at the true details of the situation explains why NC State fans may respond differently about our streak than other fans. It is because our streak IS different.

General NCS Basketball Stat of the Day

62 Responses to “Five Straight NCAA Tournaments”

  1. cfpack03 03/15/2006 at 12:49 PM #

    Gugs, this is clearly your first visit to this site. These guys have been making solid arguments disputing Sendek’s questionable coaching for years. Try reading a few posts and taking a subjective approach before you make a dozen sarcstic posts. This ain’t PackPride

  2. Jeff 03/15/2006 at 12:50 PM #

    Chief…thanks for the help with the spelling.

    I had holistic but it felt more spiritual than anything else.

    I’ll clean it later.

  3. Gugs 03/15/2006 at 1:06 PM #

    I have been here before; just thought this 5-year argument blog was spun in anti-Sendek way. Thought I would subjectively spin it another way. It is clear that you all are convinced Sendek can’t win..whatever win means to you. I have listed my reasons. I stand behind Herb.

  4. BJD95 03/15/2006 at 1:06 PM #

    I’d take V’s roller coaster over the consistent “pretty goodness” that Sendek has given us the last 5 years. In a heartbeat.

  5. Cardiff Giant 03/15/2006 at 1:07 PM #

    Chief is right about “holistic.”

    That said, very excellent work. This stat had all the marks of lipstick on a pig, and you just proved it. Perhaps an excellent subject for the Giant’s next roar.

  6. VaWolf82 03/15/2006 at 1:41 PM #

    Second, the reason we were in the gutter 10 years ago was because we tried to cut corners and we paid the penalty

    You might try to get a few facts straight along the way. There is no way to spin kids selling tennis shoes and tickets for spending money into V cutting corners. The lead investigator from the NCAA wrote a very well-known letter to V where he specifically states that there was never any evidence that V ever broke any NCAA regulations.

  7. VaWolf82 03/15/2006 at 1:51 PM #

    I live close to two schools in the Big South Conference. The entire focus for those schools is the conference tournament and a chance to go to the NCAAT. When either school wins the conference tourney, the local media makes a big deal about GOING…..and says nothing about how quickly they return.

    I want State to accomplish more than schools from the Big South. GOING should not be the goal….just a necessary step to the reals goals.

  8. RedFred 03/15/2006 at 1:54 PM #

    ^Gugs

    You are just another downer with a defeatist attitude. Someone that is always telling himself that things can’t get too much than they already are. You believe people who think different are unrealistic and morons. Please drop the keyboard and go to your room. Or better yet go visit L Fowler and discuss your ancestory, there may be a connection.

  9. NoMoreHerb 03/15/2006 at 2:24 PM #

    Gugs,

    Tell me about these great recruits. I just got off of scout.com and it looks like we’ve got TWO guys in the top 150. But so what if by your standards that’s a great class. If there not getting coached well…… whata ya got!!!

  10. class of '74 03/15/2006 at 2:27 PM #

    The issue is not the support or lack of support for Herb. It is the support of re-establishing NCSU’s heritage in basketball. We should thank Herb and send him off to chopwood at some mid major institution where his talents are better suited.

  11. Herb Sendek 03/15/2006 at 2:43 PM #

    In the past 5 seasons:

    North Carolina has won a national championship.
    Maryland has won a national championship.
    Georgia Tech has made it to the championship game.
    Duke has made it to multiple Final Fours.

    I would give up five straight NCAA tournaments for any one of the above over a five year period. What say you all?

  12. Sammy Kent 03/15/2006 at 2:47 PM #

    I thought “wholistic” was a great pun. Y’all are trying to spoil Jeff’s literary creativity!

    Hey Gugs, chill dude. You need to understand that the only thing NC State’s basketball coach has to do to get the attention of the snoopers and inflame the vitriol of the media is WIN CONSISTENTLY. If Herb had spent the last five years kicking some Big 4 butt instead of sucking hind tit the only noise louder than our cheers would be the Holes and their media minions howling that Herb is a cheater and his players don’t graduate and all sorts of nonsense. I only wish Carolina and Dook were held to the same standard of accountability they would hold State to.

  13. class of '74 03/15/2006 at 2:49 PM #

    ^Herb, I’d say you should call Two Men and a Truck and the sooner the better.

  14. VaWolf82 03/15/2006 at 3:28 PM #

    Compare State’s record vs RPI Top-50 with every other ACC school with two NCAAT appearances over the last five years.

    http://www.statefansnation.com/images/CompositeRPI.gif

    There shouldn’t be anyone surprised that State hasn’t done more in the NCAAT when the records show that State doesn’t usually beat very many good teams before the NCAAT.

  15. baxman87 03/15/2006 at 4:54 PM #

    I think we’re all pretty much familiar with the old adage that “you can make statistics say anything you want”. So while we on the side of change rightfully ping the HSSS for using “blind” statistics to mask Herb’s lack of results, they are going to attack blogs like this in the same fashion. Of course, what they’re doing is just proving the point that Herb has no singular result in his tenure that isunassailable.

    For every statistic that Herb and LF trot out in attempts to prove to the rest of the world that what they’re doing is validated, anyone else can provide a counter statistic that shoots it down. Jeff’s analysis here clearly provides the argument that making the “5 in a row” statement alone is of little value, which is similar to LF’s recent statement that “we’ve beaten the last 5 national champions” but in which he failed to add that we beat none of them in the actual year in which they won their titles.

    What the HSSS can’t trot out are statistics like “Herb has made X Final Fours” or “Herb has won X ACC titles”, etc., statistics which are the true measuring sticks for a successful D-I coach today. Those are the statistics for which I would have no comeback. As it is, we are still operating in the Herb & Fouler fantasy world of “trust us, we know what we’re doing”.

  16. smile 03/15/2006 at 5:07 PM #

    This claim to fame actually does fairly define the success of the past 5 years. Making the NCAA tourney means you are one of the best ~40 teams in the country. Of 4 of those years, based on seeding, NCSU was in the 30-40 range. Not so bad,…. not particularly good in this neighborhood. A solid, decent program. Better than average. 4th place in the conf. No contradiction here.

  17. 4NCST8 03/15/2006 at 5:17 PM #

    Gugs, with all due respect to you, what are you smoking?

    The results will improve? Are you willing to give him 20 years or something? Most Wolfpackers aren’t. Herb’s had a long, long time to show what he can do and what he’s going to do. You don’t honestly think he’s going to somehow overtake Royboy and Coach Koosherooski, do you? After all the losses that we’ve taken to them over the last three years?

    C’mon now. Roy’s signed the class of the century for next year. The losses for Herb will get worse to UNC next year and the year after. 24 points is bad. I think it will be about that next year: maybe 30-40 dustings.

    Herb is not good enough to overtake these two great coaches. With Rick Barnes . . . We might not overtake them every year, but I can see Rick doing well here. We will beat Duke and UNC more with Barnes, if he were to come.

    I just can’t believe people actually still believe that Herb will have a championship season one day.

    He’s decent coach, but not capable of that.

    You talk about glory days . . . Herb’s improved the program. Sure. But there are no “glory days” under him. In ten long years.

    Herb’s just not a good enough coach. I started believing he wasn’t the right man for State when I watched us lose to Clemson in Raleigh in 2000. We were on a seven game losing streak. When they started out 15-4, I thought, “Herb’s team on his way. We’re going to the NCAAs.” Then we lost seven straight, including an ugly one at home to Clemson. I knew then Herb wasn’t the right coach for State.

    Then, we had a bad season the next year and the NCSU administration, against the better wishes of the fans, made a bad decision: keep Herb after five years and no NCAAs. Just a bad call.

    Well, five years later, the program has improved. But Sendek has never, in this long time, won an ACC title. He’s just not good enough. The intelligent fans know this. The ones who aren’t intelligent don’t. They blindly follow the man. The big money donors and Lee Fowler blindly follow Sendek.

    It was time for a change five years ago and the right decision wasn’t made. It’s still time. I want to love NC State basketball and right now, I don’t. I bought tickets the first two years of the new arena. Since then, I’ve been to three games total. Three games in the last five years. I’m apathetic and the way I follow the team is occasionally watching the games on TV, reading the newspaper, and getting on the Internet. I refuse to buy tix as long as Herb is here. He could be here ten more years and I just won’t go to any home games.

    Herb has split the fanbase. He has known this really for the last few years. Yet he continues to coach here. That’s another reason I don’t respect him. A better man would leave. Herb doesn’t care about the fans; he ignores just about everything they say. It’s all just a paycheck to him.

    It wouldn’t surprise me if he’s back next year. He’s never given a crap about the fans or what they think. Why should he change? If you collected a million dollars a year and had the big money boys on your side, why would you care what the masses thought? There will have to immense pressure on him to leave.

  18. Unimpressed 03/15/2006 at 5:41 PM #

    Those stats are pretty informative, but it does more than tell me that Herb is mediocre. It tells me that State, as a basketball program, is mediocre. Not just under Herb’s guide… but always.

    Sure, a couple of championships spread out over 35 years is nice, but really… when are the “Glory Days” that everyone seems to want to get back to?

    Since the the beginning of the ACC (50+ years ago), State has only finished in first place 6 times (and only 3 times since 1960) and never more than three times in any 10 year span. Contrast that to finishing 4th or worse 30 times!

    They’ve had a little more success in ACC tounaments (10 wins), but again, only twice in the last 30 years.

    The media’s belief that State fans should be happy with Herb isn’t based on comparisons with other coaches in the NCAA, but compared to the history of State itself.

  19. Bob Pope 03/15/2006 at 6:16 PM #

    Things change. Look @ the 60 yr peroid since WWII. Each of the 4 NC U’s have ~ 40 yrs of competitive or> in that peroid. The problem is that NCSU has the last 15 or so of its down yrs recently. UNC had theirs in the late 40’s-early 50’s, early 60’s with NCS after the gambling incident & the Doh yrs. DU had theirs in the late 50’s & the Waters, McGahey yrs. Wake had theirs before Chappel & during the Stack & ________ yrs. The difference is that only NCS has failed to respond after 5-6 yrs. Ours is an admistrative problem & they need to fish or cut bait.

  20. Unimpressed 03/15/2006 at 7:38 PM #

    Don’t get me wrong… I think State fans have every right to want more than what Herb offers, to want championships (ACC and NCAA), etc…

    But what I don’t agree with is saying that Herb’s tenure somehow isn’t “re-establishing NCSU’s heritage in basketball”, when there wasn’t one there to begin with. The truth is that State has been a “pretty good, but not great” program… and that’s the same description I’d use for Sendek.

    And Rick Barnes may very well be the coach to get championships, but I think it runs deeper than coaching… in order for a school to compete on the highest level, year after year in the ACC, they need a commitment by the athletic department. That means spending loads of money on facilities, recruiting, and yes – coaching. And for State, it probably means deciding on whether it want’s to be a great football school or a great basketball school… because I don’t think the commitment or the money is there for both.

  21. Jeff 03/15/2006 at 8:47 PM #

    Unimpressed should change his name to Uninformed.

  22. Sammy Kent 03/15/2006 at 9:22 PM #

    Who told Gmoronski he could post here?

  23. Feel the Hate 03/15/2006 at 10:46 PM #

    The reasons to question Herb’s performance are many and abundant.

    But why spin venom before the NCAA’s – why is no one discussing how to beat Cal? As the column says, Year 5 Data Isn’t Available. Wouldn’t it be an interesting statistical anomaly if we made the final four, or even final eight? Ahh, but why wait when we can feed our obsession.

  24. Texpack 03/15/2006 at 10:55 PM #

    This V was a cheater crap is more than I can take. The NCAA investigation findings did not cite State for a single major violation nor did it say that V was involved. Herb’s official graduation numbers aren’t anything special. The guy can’t recruit. Tom Abatemarco and Eddie Beidenbach could recruit. How bad do you have to be to only make it to the Sweet 16 once in five consecutive NCAA trips. You can minimize the significance of the ACC Tourney wins of the past, but prior to the expansion of the tourney it was the only thing that really counted. The destruction of our athletic program by a UNC-CH AD (Todd Turner) has yet to be overcome. If you have the mentality of an abused spouse and somehow convince yourself that this is all you deserve, you will continue to get pounded. More than anything else, the success that K has had at Duke comes from the Bobby Knight attitude that no one deserves success any more than I do. K was never afraid of Dean Smith, neither was V. Until we take the approach that we want to play with the big boys we will continue to be the doormat of the Big Four in hoops.

  25. snizwilk 03/16/2006 at 12:30 AM #

    I have more windows to cover but I started the welcome wagon for the Pack in Big D this morning (office in the West End.. a few blocks from the AAC):

    http://www.youidiot.net/mambo/images/stories//dnc2.jpg
    http://www.youidiot.net/mambo/images/stories//dnc.jpg

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