RPI and the Final Four

To me, it was always intuitively obvious that a team’s record versus the RPI Top-50 was a key stat to use when evaluating a team or when evaluating a coach over time. Anyone can beat the Stetsons of the world (current RPI – 326), but it takes something more to beat good teams. However, some people claim that my use of this stat is misleading. So, let’s look a little closer at RPI rankings and won/loss records against the RPI Top-50.

From the NCAA, I have the Final Four teams from 1999 through 2005. From Ken Pomeroy’s site, I have the final RPI for each team and their record versus the RPI top-50. Let’s see if we can find any correlation:

 

1999

RPI

Record vs
Top 50

Champion

Connecticut

3

10-2

Runner-Up

Duke

1

16-0

 

Michigan St.

2

12-4

 

Ohio St.

20

9-3

 

 

 

 

 

2000

 

 

Champion

Michigan St.

13

10-6

Runner-Up

Florida

18

6-7

 

North Carolina

41

3-8

 

Wisconsin

32

8-8

 

 

 

 

 

2001

 

 

Champion

Duke

1

15-4

Runner-Up

Arizona

8

9-4

 

Maryland

22

7-8

 

Michigan St.

3

10-4

 

 

 

 

 

2002

 

 

Champion

Maryland

2

9-3

Runner-Up

Indiana

13

7-7

 

Kansas

1

7-1

 

Oklahoma

5

7-4

 

 

 

 

 

2003

 

 

Champion

Syracuse

9

8-4

Runner-Up

Kansas

6

7-6

 

Marquette

10

5-3

 

Texas

4

8-6

 

 

 

 

 

2004

 

 

Champion

Connecticut

5

10-6

Runner-Up

Georgia
Tech

16

8-7

 

Duke

1

10-4

 

Oklahoma St.

6

8-2

 

 

 

 

 

2005

 

 

Champion

North Carolina

6

6-3

Runner-Up

Illinois

2

11-0

 

Michigan St.

21

6-4

 

Louisville

12

7-2

Observations from these seven years:

– 18 of the 28 Final Four teams were ranked in the RPI Top-10 (64%).
– 26 of the 28 Final Four teams were ranked in the RPI Top-25 (93%).
– 10 of the 14 teams in the championship game were ranked in the RPI Top-10 (71%).
– All 14 teams in the championship game were ranked in the RPI Top-25.
– All seven NCAA champions had winning records versus the RPI Top-50.
– Only 3 Final Four teams had losing records versus the RPI Top-50.
– The worse rated team to make the Final Four was UNC in 2000 with a RPI ranking of 41 and a 3-8 record against teams in the Top-50.
– The worse rated team to make the championship game was Florida in 2000 with a RPI ranking of 18 and a 6-7 record against teams in the Top-50. This was the only time that a team appeared in the championship game with a losing record versus the RPI Top-50.

Conclusions
Good teams (by any measure you want to use) lose early in the NCAA tournament every year. However, bubble teams and those with poor records against the Top-50 do not make the Final Four either. I think that we remember the big upsets, but forget that the bracket-busters usually lose rather quickly after their big win.

The RPI is not the end-all and be-all of college basketball statistics. It may not even be the best computer formula to use when ranking teams. However, the RPI calculation is far from useless. It is no surprise to me that teams that do well in the Big Dance also have a good record against teams in the RPI Top-50. Doing well in the NCAA tournament is a function of good coaching and good players…not lucky bounces, getting “hotâ€? at the right time, or by getting breaks from the refs.

The idea that any team in the NCAA tournament can “get hot� at the right time and make the Final Four is a fairy tale just like Cinderella. Somehow, too many people forget that Cinderella stumbled and fell at midnight…just like every March when Cinderella teams stumble and fall right after their big entrance. Those addicted to predicting brackets might want to keep all of this in mind next March.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

General NCS Basketball Stat of the Day

61 Responses to RPI and the Final Four

  1. lumberpack 12/12/2005 at 8:50 PM #

    Next time you enter some statistics, start with the resume of regular basketball seasons after WWII. Leaving out 1946-1953 artificially deflates Case’s record. He and State did the following against the members of the soon to be ACC and a few others schools:

    47 SC Title
    48 SC Title
    49 SC Title
    50 SC Title, Final 4
    51 SC Title
    52 SC Title
    53 SC Runner Up

    I may have inverted a record or two.

  2. Jim 12/12/2005 at 9:15 PM #

    Gees, what do you guys want/expect for a million bucks a year? Are you not satisfied with an under-achiever who runs an archaic offense? Some people!

  3. Jeff 12/12/2005 at 9:40 PM #

    “Here’s an interesting example…Eventual National Champion UCONN was 4-5 against TOP 25 in regular season(they went on to win 4 straight against top 25 in post season)…they played 3 top 10 teams in regular season…lost to GT and beat Pitt twice.

    They are/were UCONN!!! UCONN!!! Their existing coach is already in the Hall of Fame and had PREVIOUSLY won a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.

    Do you think that there may be just a SLIGHT DIFFERENCE in why one could expect the next step from them and not from us?

    “If Jeff wants to further prove a point and make it valid, I shouldn’t have to break it down for you…simple fact…look it up with the link I provided. Most top 25 teams in the final RPI have losing records against top 25 teams. Sure…the very top have winning records but it quickly drops off from there.”

    I love the way you try to equate a “losing record” (below .500) with a 12-56 record vs the Top 25 over a whole decade. That is your “simple fact”? That NC State’s 17% winning percentage against Top 25 teams is consistent with legitimate Top 25 teams? Classic!! And, to cap it off…it is all of our responsibility to “check the link” to figure it out for ourselves since you didn’t want to do the work!! I LOVE IT!!!

  4. PACDADDY 12/12/2005 at 10:10 PM #

    VAwolf…first off…I appreciate the time you take to put yours thoughts on this blog, and I hope the “waste of time” comment didn’t offend you.

    Let’s examine this point you made…”Too many State fans are happy with just qualifying for the NCAA tournament. They mistakenly think that all State has to do is to get hot at the right time and Herb can make a run to the Final Four. It just doesn’t happen that way. ”

    How wrong could this be?…sure great teams make the Final four, but only because most do get “hot” at the right time.

    Last season MSU was 3-4 against the top 25(using Greenfield). They lost to a #31 team prior to the NCAA…then they got hot and made it to the Final 4 which they got blown out by UNC.

    Louisville had a great 6-2 record against top 25 and lost to Houston, but 3 of those top 25 victories were in the NCAA tourney. The only top 10 team they played was Kentucky and they lost. They beat Florida once and Cinci twice.

    The season GT made a run in 2003-2004…we know what happened there… they got hot. BTW…we beat them twice. They were 7-6 against top 25 and 3-3 against 26-50 teams until the tourney. They did beat Uconn earlier in the year and Duke…both top 10 teams.

    The same season OSU made it to the final 4 before losing to GT…well…OSU was a great 6-1 against top 25, but in the regular season they didn’t even play 1 top 10 team and 2 of those victories were against St Joes(#2) and Pitt(#5) in the NCAA. They played 2 team’s ranked in top 100 in their first 11 games and lost both(neither was top 25). In the regular season they played 3 teams ranked in top 25(nobody ranked higher than 15)…then they made a run through the Big 12 tourney and the NCAA. They were 30-4 for the season, but based on the facts I just pointed out…BIG DEAL! They didn’t play anybody!

    NOTE: this same season as above our socalled weak schedule, we played 6 teams in the first 11 games that were top 100 and went 4-2. We were 3-1 against TOP 6 TEAMS during the season(OSU didn’t play one until the tourney)!…yes GT was ranked #6 at end of year.

    Marquette in 2002-2003 season was 6-3 against top 25 teams, but 3 of those wins were in the NCAA tourney and they beat nobody in top 10 until the tourney. They lost to EZU! They lost to UAB before the tourney started…did they get hot?

    Kansas in 2002-2003(w/Roy) was 4-4 against top 25 until the tourney…then they went on to beat 3 top teams before losing to Cuse. I know this was a great team, but considering they were 1-2 against top 10 and 3-2 against top 11-25, you wouldn’t know how great they were by looking at those numbers.

    In 2001-2002 Indiana got hot and made a run. They were 3-4 against top 25 and 5-5 against 26-50 in the regular season. They were 1-1 against top 10(played Illinois twice). They finish 6-5 against top 25 because of the NCAA tourney.

    I could probably add 5 more to this list. I’m not saying you don’t have a valid point, but it’s simply wrong to suggest teams don’t get hot in the NCAA tourney. It’s wrong to suggest Herb teams aren’t capable of having the same types of runs in tourney play, especially by looking at the numbers you and put foward.

  5. PACDADDY 12/12/2005 at 10:25 PM #

    Jeff…Yes it’s UConn…Hall of Fame coach….What’s your point? 4-5 record verse top 25 and he won the NCAA title. DO you know of a Hall Of Fame Coach we can get? Honest question here…How long has Calhoun been at UCONN? How quick did he turn UCONN into a power? I honestly can’t remember. The point I’m making is simply by looking at your numbers and VAWOLF…doesn’t tell the whole story and is way too simplistic.

    To look at Sendek’s record over a ten year period is simply stupid…and you know it. Sure…a coach here and a coach there, took a BS program and turned it arouind quicker…big deal…sometimes all it takes is one player to start the ball rolling. You make it sound so simple.

    ShOULD THINGS BEEN TURNED AROUND QUICKER? YES…BUT HAVE TURNED THIS AROUIND…LOOK AT THE FREAKIN ROSTER!

    I could go on and on, but you and I have been through this forever.

    BTW…I enjoy this site and the different perspective. I don’t agree with the negative tone of this blog after a Sweet Sixteen appearance…in fact, I find it odd…but the writers on here(including yourself) are excellent and I do try to keep an open mind.

  6. PACDADDY 12/12/2005 at 10:59 PM #

    Jeff…

    We are 15-14 in the last 4 season against top 11-50. We are 6-8 against 11-25…much better than you might think compaed to rest of Nation. Unfortunately for Herb, last season(according to Greenfield numbers) he played 5 top 5 teams, 1 top 10 team and nobody from 11-25.

    I bet you nobody outside of the ACC comes close to this last season. I BET YOU this is more than all of the freakin Big 12 conference combined last season…probably more than Big 12 and WAC combined. Heck…SEC probably didn’t play much more than that and I know they didn’t play that many top 5’s.

    So…what does that do for your numbers? Does that help you see my point?

    OSU was the highest ranked team in Big 12…they played nobody in the top 10…nobody. So looking simply at top 50 records is a waste of time, if substance has any meaning.

    BTW…we beat GT twice 2 seasons ago and they finished in top 10 in my rpi…why only one win that season? We were 3 -1 and against top ten 2 years ago according to Greenfield.

    THE POINT IS, YOU GUYS ARE LOOKING AT OUR RECORD WITHOUT COMPARING IT TO OTHERS…IT’S APPLE AND ORANGES IF YOU DON’T DIG DEEPER. I THINK I MADE MY POINT WITHOUT HAVING TO SPEND HOURS DEFENDING THE OBVIOUS…FEW TEAMS HAVE DOMINATE TOP 25 W/L RECORDS, AND A VERY FEW OUTSIDE OF ACC PLAY THE NUMBER OF TOP 10 TEAMS WE DO…BOTTOM LINE

    If you want to compare us to the rest of the ACC over the last 4 seasons, maybe then you caon get a true comparision…I bet we come out pretty darn good, simply because our ACC record over last 4 season has been solid.

  7. VaWolf82 12/12/2005 at 11:12 PM #

    If you want to compare us to the rest of the ACC over the last 4 seasons, maybe then you caon get a true comparision…I bet we come out pretty darn good, simply because our ACC record over last 4 season has been solid.

    Hold that thought…..I’m working on it.

  8. VaWolf82 12/12/2005 at 11:21 PM #

    I bet you nobody outside of the ACC comes close to this last season..

    You seem to be obsessing about last year…..what about the three years before that?

    How wrong could this be?…sure great teams make the Final four, but only because most do get “hot� at the right time.

    Of course the teams that make the Final Four are hot at the end of the year. But by and large it is the teams that have already proven that they are good that get hot…..not the teams that sneak into the tournament. Where are the Cinderallas that everyone likes to talk about? They made one or two upsets and then the odds caught up with them.

  9. PACDADDY 12/12/2005 at 11:24 PM #

    I wanted to clear something up…I meant OU was the highest rated and I was of course saying we played more top 10 teams last seasons than the Big 12 combined if you took OU out of the equaton…because obviously…you got at least 15-20 teams playing them.

  10. VaWolf82 12/12/2005 at 11:36 PM #

    BTW…I enjoy this site and the different perspective. I don’t agree with the negative tone of this blog after a Sweet Sixteen appearance…in fact, I find it odd…but the writers on here(including yourself) are excellent and I do try to keep an open mind.

    I find it odd that facts are labeled as either positive or negative. Stats and trends are being laid out before the season really begins to see how this season compares to the recent past. This season will be better, worse, or more of the same…..at least everyone will have the information available for comparison and for drawing conclusions.

    A Sweet 16 last year was really nice and I think it was much more than most people expected….especially through half-time of the UNCC game. State got a lot of good publicity from Sunday through Thursday after the UConn win. However, as a key-note season, it pales in comparison to real keynote seasons that I’ve experienced as a State fan. I am all for talkng about the accomplishments of our BB team under Sendek….the problem is that the length of that list is awfully short.

  11. Class of '74 12/13/2005 at 6:51 AM #

    You may pull out all the comparisions you want but the cold hard truth is NCSU is not and has not been viewed as a basketball power since the Jimmy V era. We are third banana in our own backyard and until Herb puts up a banner that is the way it will be!

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