RPI and the Final Four

To me, it was always intuitively obvious that a team’s record versus the RPI Top-50 was a key stat to use when evaluating a team or when evaluating a coach over time. Anyone can beat the Stetsons of the world (current RPI – 326), but it takes something more to beat good teams. However, some people claim that my use of this stat is misleading. So, let’s look a little closer at RPI rankings and won/loss records against the RPI Top-50.

From the NCAA, I have the Final Four teams from 1999 through 2005. From Ken Pomeroy’s site, I have the final RPI for each team and their record versus the RPI top-50. Let’s see if we can find any correlation:

 

1999

RPI

Record vs
Top 50

Champion

Connecticut

3

10-2

Runner-Up

Duke

1

16-0

 

Michigan St.

2

12-4

 

Ohio St.

20

9-3

 

 

 

 

 

2000

 

 

Champion

Michigan St.

13

10-6

Runner-Up

Florida

18

6-7

 

North Carolina

41

3-8

 

Wisconsin

32

8-8

 

 

 

 

 

2001

 

 

Champion

Duke

1

15-4

Runner-Up

Arizona

8

9-4

 

Maryland

22

7-8

 

Michigan St.

3

10-4

 

 

 

 

 

2002

 

 

Champion

Maryland

2

9-3

Runner-Up

Indiana

13

7-7

 

Kansas

1

7-1

 

Oklahoma

5

7-4

 

 

 

 

 

2003

 

 

Champion

Syracuse

9

8-4

Runner-Up

Kansas

6

7-6

 

Marquette

10

5-3

 

Texas

4

8-6

 

 

 

 

 

2004

 

 

Champion

Connecticut

5

10-6

Runner-Up

Georgia
Tech

16

8-7

 

Duke

1

10-4

 

Oklahoma St.

6

8-2

 

 

 

 

 

2005

 

 

Champion

North Carolina

6

6-3

Runner-Up

Illinois

2

11-0

 

Michigan St.

21

6-4

 

Louisville

12

7-2

Observations from these seven years:

– 18 of the 28 Final Four teams were ranked in the RPI Top-10 (64%).
– 26 of the 28 Final Four teams were ranked in the RPI Top-25 (93%).
– 10 of the 14 teams in the championship game were ranked in the RPI Top-10 (71%).
– All 14 teams in the championship game were ranked in the RPI Top-25.
– All seven NCAA champions had winning records versus the RPI Top-50.
– Only 3 Final Four teams had losing records versus the RPI Top-50.
– The worse rated team to make the Final Four was UNC in 2000 with a RPI ranking of 41 and a 3-8 record against teams in the Top-50.
– The worse rated team to make the championship game was Florida in 2000 with a RPI ranking of 18 and a 6-7 record against teams in the Top-50. This was the only time that a team appeared in the championship game with a losing record versus the RPI Top-50.

Conclusions
Good teams (by any measure you want to use) lose early in the NCAA tournament every year. However, bubble teams and those with poor records against the Top-50 do not make the Final Four either. I think that we remember the big upsets, but forget that the bracket-busters usually lose rather quickly after their big win.

The RPI is not the end-all and be-all of college basketball statistics. It may not even be the best computer formula to use when ranking teams. However, the RPI calculation is far from useless. It is no surprise to me that teams that do well in the Big Dance also have a good record against teams in the RPI Top-50. Doing well in the NCAA tournament is a function of good coaching and good players…not lucky bounces, getting “hotâ€? at the right time, or by getting breaks from the refs.

The idea that any team in the NCAA tournament can “get hot� at the right time and make the Final Four is a fairy tale just like Cinderella. Somehow, too many people forget that Cinderella stumbled and fell at midnight…just like every March when Cinderella teams stumble and fall right after their big entrance. Those addicted to predicting brackets might want to keep all of this in mind next March.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

General NCS Basketball Stat of the Day

61 Responses to RPI and the Final Four

  1. BJD95 12/11/2005 at 10:24 AM #

    Very interesting, and cuts somewhat against my way of thinking (maybe I’m too colored by the Valvano era). Can anybody think of another coach (since Valvano) that really made his bones as a “tournament coach,” and not based on overall (i.e., regular season) strength?

  2. VaWolf82 12/11/2005 at 12:32 PM #

    I don’t know if this applies to Valvano’s tournament success or not, but I will always remember V’s “junk” defenses that he would use. I specifically remember the game in Raleigh against UVa during Sampson’s freshman year. Every time RS touched the ball, he was instantly double-teamed and if he held the ball long enough, Sid Lowe would turn it into a triple-team.

    V made sure that Sampson, Lamp, and Raker weren’t going to beat State that afternoon. IIRC, UVa’s power forward went something like 0-8 from the field, insuring that the double-teams were going to continue. I wonder how much V’s multitude of defenses played into his tournament successes.

  3. Jeff 12/11/2005 at 12:52 PM #

    Absolutely fantastic stuff. Unfortunately, making the Final Four and being successful against top competition has not been a true goal or expectation of this program for over 15 years.

    We are so far away from being a part of this kind of conversation that it is laughable. Don’t believe me? Check out State’s performance vs the RPI in the Regular Season by clicking here if you can’t see the following chart:

    HerbvsRPI (Regular Season)3

  4. Jeff 12/11/2005 at 1:01 PM #

    In the “great” last four regular seasons….

    NC State is 15-29 against the RPI’s Top 50, segmented as follows:
    * 1-13 vs #1-10
    * 6-8 vs #11-25 (with 5 of those winnings coming in one season)
    * 8-8 vs #26-50

    Additionally, NC State has compiled A SINGLE winning record against the Top 50, not only in the last 4 years, but in Herb Sendek’s previous nine years.

    In Herb’s first regular sesaon, State was 1-6 vs the Top 10.
    In his 2nd season, we were 1-5 vs the Top 10.
    Last year, we were 0-6 vs the Top 10.

    Do tell me more about all of that “improvement”.

  5. VaWolf82 12/11/2005 at 2:34 PM #

    Now you’re jumping ahead to my next entry. Good thing I hadn’t started on it yet.

    I had never bothered to break down State’s performance further than kenpom’s stuff with the top 50. That performance was so bad, I never felt the need to look any closer.

  6. SaccoV 12/11/2005 at 4:26 PM #

    I think the final analysis here is above the numbers that you guys have so perfectly put together. If Herb would have won just ONE of the three ACC Finals games, or just ONE of the games in Cameron, or gotten to an Elite Eight, I think all of us would be a little less pessimistic about his tenure here. Even though we have effectively ZERO big wins in conference tourney finals and ONE big win in the NCAA tournament, those are so over-shadowed by Vandy, Cal, Maryland, Duke, Temple, BC–all of which have come during the last four seasons. Even if we look at these numbers in some light favorable to Herb, there is still a black cloud hanging over this coach and this program. Sweet 16 was nice. Still no guarantee that the program is where it should be.

  7. VaWolf82 12/11/2005 at 4:36 PM #

    there is still a black cloud hanging over this coach and this program.

    Having lived through Monte Kiffin, Tom Reed, Mike O’Cain, Les Robinson, and the early Herb years……black cloud might be a little rough. The only thing hanging over the BB program is the simple fact that the current regime doesn’t live up to the standard set by previous coaches at NC State…and the fact that the current administration apparently doesn’t care.

  8. Rick Jernigan 12/11/2005 at 4:39 PM #

    I really appreciate the effort that goes into this type of research. To me, Herb’s 1 -13 record against the #1-10 of the RPI is the key stat. Not knowing V’s numbers against the top 50, I think his record against #11-50 wouldn’t be much different than Herb’s but the record against #1-10 would be much better. This is the difference between 3 trips to the ACC finals and 2 ACC championships.

    BJD95 – You may too young to remember but Everett Case always understood that basketball is a tournament sport and his regular season scheduling and strategy always took this into account.

  9. Jeff 12/11/2005 at 5:22 PM #

    I understand and appreciate the perspective that basketball is a tournament sport. But, the law of averages seems to indicate that the better teams in the regular season have a better chance of succeeding in the tournament.

  10. site admin 12/11/2005 at 7:18 PM #

    I am not sure why any talk of the “Final Four” should be on a NC State fan site. Maybe if it was the NIT, or maybe the ACC tournament “final four”, since that is how we determine greatness.

  11. VaWolf82 12/11/2005 at 8:27 PM #

    You shouldn’t leave straight lines lying around like that…..someone could get hurt. 😉

    IMO (humble but accurate), there is far too much emotion involved in the Great Herb Debate. Emotion clouds the judgment and affects the way you evaluate the situation. I don’t want to sound like Mr. Spock, but I just try to honestly evaluate any situation and face the world as it is…..both the good and the bad.

    If someone disagrees with me about my conclusions, then please show me the facts that I have overlooked or misinterpreted. Don’t accuse me of having some hidden agenda….that’s what upsets me. I enjoy talking about sports, but am not interested in participating in delusional discussions that always end with WTNY. That’s not intelligent discussion or analysis…..that’s some kind of mass hypnosis or hallucination.

  12. Cardiac95 12/11/2005 at 9:47 PM #

    “The only thing hanging over the BB program is the simple fact that the current regime doesn’t live up to the standard set by previous coaches at NC State…and the fact that the current administration apparently doesn’t care.”

    ^Spot on with this comment VA….

    re: Tournament sport comments…..

    I distinctly remember Dean Smith talking about how he liked to schedule the early season tournaments because he felt that playing multiple games in consecutive days against stiff competition was the best way to prepare for the grueling ACC Tournament. And it his time….there were no fluffy preseason tournaments like the BCA Classic.

    This seems to be in direct constrast to our current philosophy on scheduling these events. And IMO, the difference is scheduling to MAKE a post-season tournament vs. scheduling to WIN a post-season tournament.

    Sorry its a little off the RPI topic….

  13. scott 12/11/2005 at 10:48 PM #

    Not on topic here, but would like to know. Yesterday’s Heritage Game was “sold out,” but there were only 7,245 of us in attendance. I know the lower level has been reconfigured so actual seating is less than 12,400, but should still be around 10,000 or so I would think. They acknowledged lots of school groups in attendance, which makes me wonder…did the athletic dept. give away a lot of tickets they could have sold? Incidentally, it’s 10:45 pm & NOTHING yet on gopack.com about the women’s BB game that was played at 2:00. Sad.

  14. PACDADDY 12/12/2005 at 1:23 AM #

    While I find these stats useful …they don’t really tell the whole story. If you go back and look at all the teams in the RPI over the last 4 seasons, you’ll find between 5 and maybe 10-11(which is rare) to have actually had winning records against top 25 teams(not Top 10) in a particular season.

    Now if you consider that many of our “top 25” or “top 50” opponents are really “top 10″(as Jeff pointed out) and in many cases “top 5”, the point becomes skewed.

    I wouldn’t be suprised if you look at the last 4 seasons and fairly compared us to rest of nation, you’ll see Herb is probably in top 25 in regards to winning % AGAINST TEAMS FROM 11-50.

    Important point again…many of those Top 25 losses were to top 5 teams. We played more “top 5” teams last season than most play 3 seasons(7).

    Case in point…Louisville finished a powerful 3-1 against RPI top 25…but 0-1 against top 10…Kentucky was rated #7. Illinois only beat 2 top 10 teams in their “great run” last season.

    Now…I agree that we need to start beating the “Top 5” teams.

  15. Class of '74 12/12/2005 at 6:25 AM #

    Re: Valvano. V was the best at game situation coaching we’ve ever had and he probably was as good as Dean in that area of the game. Our present coach pales in that comparison.

    The info provided is really insightful. If you want to be the best you’ve gotta first schedule then compete with the best. It’s all a part of training. If you load up on cupcakes you will be exposed as a fraud eventually.

  16. Rick 12/12/2005 at 9:14 AM #

    This is just another reason why I believe Sendek has reached his peak. He does not seem to be able to get the team to the next level and I doubt that he ever will.

  17. choppack 12/12/2005 at 9:20 AM #

    “Re: Valvano. V was the best at game situation coaching we’ve ever had and he probably was as good as Dean in that area of the game. Our present coach pales in that comparison.”

    Let’s be honest – EVERYONE paled in comparison to V when it came to game coaching. Where V struggled was building a program that consistently acheived the excellence he was capable of acheiving here at State.

    Regarding the RPI #s – it’s intersting that in every year, someone outside of the Top 10 makes the Final 4.

    As for a great tourney coach, I think I’d have to say Coach K or Pitino. Of course, they are usually entering the tourney as a high seed, especially in K’s case.

  18. Class of '74 12/12/2005 at 9:44 AM #

    I’d really love to see that Herb is in the top tier for winning % against top 50 competition but I’d have to see it to believe it. I think Pacdaddy might want to rethink that one.

  19. Cardiac95 12/12/2005 at 9:46 AM #

    Scott…..yes there were alot a ticket giveaways yesterday & not just to local schools. My niece who lives in Atlantic Beach went with her school to the game.

  20. VaWolf82 12/12/2005 at 9:48 AM #

    I wouldn’t be suprised if you look at the last 4 seasons and fairly compared us to rest of nation, you’ll see Herb is probably in top 25 in regards to winning % AGAINST TEAMS FROM 11-50.

    You might have a point if the only place Herb showed up lacking was in RPI-related statistics. However, he turns up lacking in nearly every category at which you examine. So if you want to create a new statistical category and then make a point…..have a ball. However, creating a new statistical category and then guessing at the answer (which just happens to be one that you are personally happy with) is not exactly the start of an intelligent debate.

  21. choppack 12/12/2005 at 10:01 AM #

    “This is just another reason why I believe Sendek has reached his peak. He does not seem to be able to get the team to the next level and I doubt that he ever will.”

    Why would you think he reached his peak? I’m not saying that he hasn’t reached it either, but the recent trend would tend to indicate otherwise. 2 years ago, he wins 11 conference games in the regular season – the most wins in ACC regular conference season play ever, and last year we went to the Sweet 16 – his most wins thus far in the NCAA tourney. So in each of the last 2 years, he’s hit some significant milestones. I just don’t see the “he’s reached his peak” evidence. I do see evidence that he’s not one of the elite coaches – and there is no evidence he can even make the tourney at NC State w/out Hodge and/or Hunter, but that’s a different story.

  22. choppack 12/12/2005 at 10:02 AM #

    Whoops – I meant to say, the 11 wins were Herb’s most ever in the regular season of the ACC. Not the most wins ever.

  23. VaWolf82 12/12/2005 at 10:53 AM #

    I just don’t see the “he’s reached his peak� evidence.

    ACC reg season wins over the only four years that Fowler can remember:
    9, 9, 11, 7

    ACC tourney seedings:
    4, 4, 2, 6

    ACC tourney wins:
    2, 2, 1, 2

    NCAAT wins:
    1, 0, 1, 2

    RPI ranking:
    37, 53, 17, 53*

    I see no evidence for substantial improvement over the last four years.

    *Using old RPI formula…65 with the new (current) formula

  24. Rick 12/12/2005 at 11:03 AM #

    Chop,
    If you look at each statistic for all four years, instead of choosing which one is best for that year then I think you get a better pciture.
    ACC wins – 9,9,11,7
    RPI – 31,53,17,65
    NCAA wins – 1,0,1,2
    Overall record – 21-9,18-12,20-9,19-13

    What this looks like is a coach that has hit a ceiling. A good coach that does not seem to have the ability to be a great one. IMO the worst kind you can have because there is little hope of ever being better.

  25. Jeff 12/12/2005 at 11:07 AM #

    The concept of this “Peak” conversation is an interesting one, as I have written an entry for this blog titled “The Pack’s Peak” prior to even last season. Basically, it discusses Herb’s peak after having a decade of opportunity when compared to the peak of the other programs in the ACC over that time period. How do you think that panned out? (But, I’m sure that some reason exists that makes it “unfair” to do such a comparison).

    The reason that I think that we have seen Herb’s peak are as follows:
    (a) he’s had TEN OPPORTUNITIES. Jesus…how many chances do you get to deliver a peak?

    (b) he ‘coincidently’ achieved his peak in a year that Matt Doherty coached Carolina. I know that the HSSSers fool themselves into saying “what does it matter that 4 of his only 5 wins against Carolina came against Doherty.” Well…here is the answer of why it matters — there is no reason to ever expect Herb to compete against a non-Doherty coached Tarheel program since he never has in the past.

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