Being Competitive – A Real Example

There are two words (and all of their derivations) that I’ve come to hate over the last year or so…�expect� and “compete�. These two words are certainly not complicated to spell, pronounce, or use in normal conversation. However when they are used on sports message boards, the meanings can become nearly incomprehensible and stretched beyond recognition.

When someone uses “expectâ€?, it can mean anything from hope/dream, predict, and even require. For example if your manager (or Significant Other) says, “That was not what I expectedâ€?…then the meaning is obvious and it is not good. When a fan talks about “expecting to do betterâ€?, it is often hard to tell if that is a prediction or a hope. (The insanity of a fan talking about requirements for the coach/team should be obvious to all and not worth discussing…though some fans do so incessantly.)

“Compete� can also have several different meanings. For example, Stetson arrived in Raleigh with coaches, players, tennis shoes, etc. They ran, jumped, dribbled, and shot for 40 minutes and thus the sentence “Stetson was competing with NC State.� is a perfectly acceptable statement…..except for the little fact that Stetson would offer no competition to any ACC school.

In the sports world, “competitive� is normally used to describe a close game that could have been won by either team. Over a longer period of time, to say that one program was competitive with another would normally mean that your team won some games, even if the “bad guys� won more often. However, when the wins on the court/field occur less frequently than February 29th, then we have a problem.

So to help ground the optimistically-delusional fans, I am going to provide an illustration of a program that is competitive with a superior program…Maryland vs Duke. I don’t think describing Duke as having a superior program (or at least having superior results) to any other program in America over the last 20 years will raise much controversy. From 1999 through 2005, Duke finished ahead of Maryland in the regular season standings five times, tied with them once, and behind Maryland once. However, the 17 games played between Duke and Maryland over the last seven seasons break down as follows:

Location

Maryland’s

Record

@ Maryland

3-4

@ Duke

3-4

Neutral

1-2

Total:

7-10

This series contains overtime games, last-second shots, frantic comebacks…and a few trouncings. Maryland has finished the ACC regular season the last two years at 7-9, but still won three of five games against Duke who was ranked in the RPI Top-5 both years. Imagine that…actually beating a top-10 team. Guess we should tell Gary not to try so hard since losses to top-10 teams don’t count. 😉

It’s both sad and funny to watch some NC State fans try to define “competitive� in ways that don’t require winning. The saddest example has to be the silly spiel about State beating the last seven national champions in basketball. The only time that State beat one of these eventual national champions was in the 2002 ACC tourney when they upset Maryland. How anyone can take pride in beating a school before or after they won the NCAA tourney is beyond me….but we have fans that do.

Final Note
By almost any definition, Wake Forest and Maryland have both been competitive with the top teams in the country over the last few years. However, it is Maryland that has a regular season title, ACC Tourney title, two Final Four appearances, and a National Championship. They keep score for a reason……the real goal is to win and to win championships.

Raw Data  for Maryland
vs Duke

2005

Maryland 75, (4) Duke 66

Away

Maryland
99, (4) Duke 92 (OT)

Home

2004

(1)
Duke 68, Maryland
60

Home

(1)
Duke 86, Maryland
63

Away

Maryland
95, (1) Duke 87 (OT)

Neutral

2003

Maryland 87, (12) Duke 72

Home

(12)
Duke 75, Maryland
70

Away

2002

(4)
Duke 99, Maryland
78

Away

Maryland 87, (4) Duke 73

Home

2001

(1)
Duke 98, Maryland 96

Home

Maryland 91, (1) Duke 80

Away

(1)
Duke 84, Maryland
82

Neutral

2000

(2)
Duke 80, Maryland
70

Home

Maryland
98, (2) Duke 87

Away

(2)
Duke 81, Maryland
68

Neutral

1999

(1)
Duke 82, Maryland
64

Home

(1)
Duke 95, Maryland
77

Away

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

General NCS Basketball NCS Football

54 Responses to Being Competitive – A Real Example

  1. Cardiac95 12/17/2005 at 1:42 AM #

    Not that it matters but……

    I just wanted to point out that during Gary Williams’ first 10 years when his head to head matchup with K was so bad…..he did make 4 Sweet 16’s & finished the season ranked in the Top 25 4 times & Top10 twice. I guess the Maryland AD must have seen some obscure seeds of greatness to keep him around with those results.

    Also…on the program GW inherited…..Maryland was 7-35 in the ACC during the 3 years prior to his arrival….in addition to the probation…..& only 3 years removed from the Len Bias incident.

    Our program was 12-36 in the ACC during the 3 yrs prior to Herb’s arrival….had no probation…& was 6 years removed from the Valvano scandal.

    You be the judge….

  2. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 5:53 AM #

    pla·teau (plă-tÅ?’) (n)
    1) An elevated, comparatively level expanse of land; a tableland.
    2) A relatively stable level, period, or state

    Summary of Last Four Years
    ACC Regular Season Wins – 9,9,11,7
    ACC Tourney Seedings – 4, 4, 2, 6
    RPI – 37, 53, 17, 65* (* new formula)
    ACC Tourney Results – Lost Sun, Lost Sun, Lost Sat, Lost Sat
    NCAA Tourney Wins – 1. 0. 1. 2

    I never said that Herb and State had “peaked”. The results have essentially leveled off…..thus my plateau remark.

  3. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 8:23 AM #

    – I assume your message was to illustrate how Herb really isn’t “competitiveâ€? with K.
    – but I read between the lines for a living
    – I appreciate you pointing out the 4-6 records

    Note: the 4-6 records vs Md and WF were conteined in my entry, “RPI and the ACC”.

    I would suggest that you concentrate on my words, and not what you think that I am trying to say. Most of my blog entries so far have had more to do with idiotic statements frequently made State fans than Herb’s record. When I have something to say about his record, it won’t be hard to find.

    Here’s an index of my entries so far:

    BC FB game and stupid analyses by fans:
    Another Pathetic Performance

    Preview of Md-State FB
    Go Ugly Early

    Herb’s Record
    A Defining Season?
    RPI and the ACC

    Rebuttals to Idiotic Fan Comments
    Problems with Data Analysis
    RPI and the Final Four
    Being Competitive – A Real Example

    General Stats
    Out-of-Conference Strength of Schedule

  4. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 8:44 AM #

    Assuming that you care what I think about Sendek, I tried to be as clear as I know how in this entry and its comments.

    A Defining Season?

  5. Class of '74 12/17/2005 at 10:03 AM #

    As to Herb’s backyard recruiting results look at WF’s roster since Prosser came in and tell me Herb has done a good job in state. Simmons is the exception not the norm for in state results. For long term success the rule has been you must get it done locally just look at Maravich, Sloan and V. They all got their share of in state talent. The recruiting issue was my first telltale sign something wasn’t right with this regime and it remains with me to this day as our biggest question mark.

  6. TVP 12/17/2005 at 10:56 AM #

    ^Actually, if there is anything we shouldn’t have a question about, its recruiting. Out of the last 8 seasons we’ve outrecruited (based on the rankings) everyone in the ACC save Duke and UNC, and occasionally even one of those two.

    Wake had one great year recruiting in-state when it looked like Herb was going to be fired (the gray/williams/strickland class) and then lucked into a Chris Paul right in their backyard who didn’t even want to visit State, Duke, or UNC. Look at Wake’s roster next year and ours and tell me which one you’d rather have.

    Who cares where the players are from – I’ll take a very good NYC (or Florida, or wherever) player over a pretty good NC player anyday.

  7. Jeff 12/17/2005 at 10:59 AM #

    Guys…you keep falling for the irrelevant tangental arguments that are classic in the playbook.

    Great work, VAWolf. I have lots of thoughts around the convenient use of the word “competitive” since there is absolutely NO tangible, definable metrics connected to the term.

    Welcome to Lee Fowler’s NC State Athletics.

  8. TheOrignalBigBadWolf 12/17/2005 at 11:10 AM #

    PacDaddy, we can beat anyone and everyone on the schedule? I’ll be here on January 8th to see if you still think that.

  9. DRO 12/17/2005 at 11:39 AM #

    PACDADDY, I’ll concede your point about Simmons. However, one good recruit does not a team make. Just look at UNC last year and all of the big recruits they had (recruited by Doh no less), and see what it got them with the right coach? Has Herb even approached that level of recruiting success in his tenure? If he has, he hasn’t done much with it.

    And PACDADDY, my comment about UNC beating a ranked KY team on the road is simply to suggest that you can’t make any prediction at this point in the season about, and I quote again: “Oh…and 3 out of 4 we finished ahead of UNC…including Roy. After this season it will be 4 out of 5…WOW!” The only thing State has done so far to prove they are a good team is to beat inferior opponents and lose in a miserable game to a team that is also playing poorly now. Again you, like so many here, are looking into the future instead of focusing on the actual results of the past and present. Heck, we can all dream, but dreaming doesn’t get us anywhere. If State finishes in the top 2-3 in the league (in what appears to be a down year in the ACC) and makes a strong showing in the postseason, then kudos to Herb. But the season hasn’t really gotten started, so let’s keep our arguments in the realm of fact.

    I agree with TVP about it doesn’t matter where you grow the recruits as long as they are the real deal. I can hardly agree with TVP’s comment about State out-recruiting the ACC. Maybe the recruit rankings bear that out, but the Pack’s results certainly don’t. Who cares how highly rated a recruit is in high school, if he can’t get it done in college and help his team be very successful.

  10. PACDADDY 12/17/2005 at 12:11 PM #

    I would suggest over the last 4 seasons, our overall ranking at the end of the year, our win/loss record against our ACC opponents and the roster we currently have, is far for “relevant” than the meanlingess stats you scrape up Jeff.

    Is Hewitt competitive with Herb? Based on your narrow view of competitive, I assume your answer is no…how “irrelevant” is that?

    What a joke!

    GW started his tenure at Maryland with 2 NBA players. He then found Walt Williams to help get through the tough times. He suffereed a couple of transfers and had one crappy recruiting seasopn Then he quickly added Joe Smith and the rest is history. I believe everyone of the players were from the Maryland/Va area.(I could be wrong). Herb took over a prgram that had Todd Fuller as our high water mark. I’m not mimimizing the outstanding job Gary has done, but the simularities are there, and our AD can see the results. Gary didn’t start winning unitl his 5th season. He went 4-4 in first 4 NCAA tourneys…SO DID HERB!

    Someone mentioned our back yard and V in the same sentence…frightening…Chucky Brown…who else?

    VA..I know what plateau means. It seemed you were suggesting we have leveled off and shouldn’t expect an increase in performance. Getting the program stable is the first step…We’ll see where it goes from here.

  11. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 5:21 PM #

    Oh…and 3 out of 4 we finished ahead of UNC…including Roy.

    Someone help me out with this. When discussing Herb and NC State, we are not supposed to discuss the first five years because…..well just because. But when analyzing UNC, we are supposed to include the two bad years (and only the two bad years) with the previous coach because…..?

  12. TVP 12/17/2005 at 6:42 PM #

    The problem wasn’t recruiting – the problem was that a TON of very highly regarded players transferred or went “pro” (like Powell). The recruiting was great – the retention was terrible.

    As for Herb’s overall record: To me, we’ve only had one really good year, though I did enjoy the Sweet 16 run. We shouldn’t have to win multiple ACC tournament games to lock up an NCAA bid. I like him but given the results I can’t be anymore than lukewarm on him.

    Anyone who says we are “competitive” with Duke or the other elite is dreaming – on that I do agree with you wholeheartedly.

  13. Jeff 12/17/2005 at 6:44 PM #

    DON’T FOLLOW THEM OFF THE CLIFF!!! Stop engaging in the circular conversations that cannot be won since there is no common sense or consistency in the foundation of anything that is said.

  14. PACDADDY 12/17/2005 at 7:23 PM #

    LOL…so typical…3 of last 4 top 25 finishes and I have to argue whether we’re “competitive”. Common sense? I’m far more consistent, and don’t have to pick between my toes to find dirt. You can’t respond Jeff, because you know I’m right.

    Nobody said we’re competitive with Duke. They’ve dominated the ACC. Maryland and GW has risen to the occation the last 3 seasons..the first 11 game of VA example shows Gary was 3-8…is that “competitive”? So it took him 13 seasons to do it. Herb beat Duke and Maryland in his first year….how long did it take GW before he beat K?…7 years!

    You haven’t read one post I’ve every made(anywhere) critizing GW…I know he’s a great coach.

    Ignore the truth and it will go away Jeff?

    Circular conversations is all you can do Jeff…the same stats every year. You ask for facts and I provide them, you disregard them, because you choose to.

    Dirt in toes…lol!

  15. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 8:11 PM #

    I’m far more consistent

    I’ll agree with this. This is the third entry I’ve made where:
    1) You ignore facts that you don’t like.
    2) Refuse to answer questions.
    3) Combine opinions with predictions to draw conclusions.
    4a) Accuse me of saying things that I never said or
    4b) Accuse me of implying things that I never intended.

  16. PACDADDY 12/17/2005 at 10:59 PM #

    VA…I really don’t have a problem with most of what you’ve stated
    First…you think you’re far more consistent than me? That may be true, but I think you’re reading some of my post(s) and think it’s totally directed at you.

    Is pointing out GW’s 7-9 record over last 7 seasons, without pointing out the 3-8 record in first 11 games consistent ?I mean…aren’t you really pointing out that GW has been “competitive” for 2 seasons?…or is 3-8 “competitive”. Then not mentioning the 2-19 record against K prior to…oh…you are consistent. 😉

    You said…
    I’ll agree with this. This is the third entry I’ve made where:
    1) You ignore facts that you don’t like.
    2) Refuse to answer questions.
    3) Combine opinions with predictions to draw conclusions.
    4a) Accuse me of saying things that I never said or
    4b) Accuse me of implying things that I never intended.

    1) I haven’t ignored any facts, I simply gave you examples that show you how meaningless your facts were. Meaning…Strictly looking at top 50 records without looking at who they actually played is a joke. If you don’t understand what I’m saying…sorry…but I’m not the one “ignoring facts”. I realize your point was that most teams in final 4 have winning records against top 50…well duh…I believed your underlining message was really suggesting that until Herb performs better against Top 50, then he won’t be successful in tourney. I tied your post with Jeff’s entry in my response. Bottom line is your correct in theory, but if a high % of the teams you played against are actually top 5…how can you judge how a team will perform in NCAA? We made the Sweet 16 last season, but we were 7-9 against Top 50…as I stated before…7 of those teams were in the top 5! Nobody outside of the ACC even came close to this. Isn’t that a relevant point? if not…why? After pointing out these facts…I get…”it doesn’t matter what others teams in other conference do”? All say BS

    2)I’m not sure what questions you’re refering to???…the question about what significant accomplishment Herb has had? Well hell…The man has had to build a program from dirt, in a time where even Clemson was performing at a “competitive” level…WF was just coming off ACC championships and GW was beginning to gets things rolling. He’s brought this program to a consistent top 25 finisher and we’re currently in top 20…it that not significant?…now…am I satisfied? NO… Did it take too long? Maybe…but does that matter now?

    3)Now that’s interesting…I’ve made a few predictions as to how we’ll do this season(compared to teams I’ve seen), in order to show where I’m coming from. I think we’ll have a better season than Maryland, WF, GT and UNC…I doubt I’m the only State fan that believes that…maybe not on this site, but I believe most fans “expect” it. If you’re refering to the “compare us to the rest of the ACC” suggestion and prediction. I expected us to be close to WF(which we are if you look at Greenfields)…funny thing is, all it takes is one strong season from us and one average season from WF and it will be close. WF had theirs last season, and we didn’t…but who made the sweet sixteen?

    4)Again…many times I’ve made entries, I was tying your post and Jeffs entry together. Many of these comments weren’t directly entirely at you. You claim you have no motive…I believe you, and I’m sorry to accuse you of having one. You mentioned in another post that I care about your opinion…I don’t care what YOU and Jeff think, I care about what you and Jeff write…You see…your entry appeared to be another reshaping of the same crap Jeff puts out. Maybe I was wrong. That was my opinion. I know this is just a blog, but it’s called Statefans Nation…not uncfans nation

    I don’t need to pull out all these meaningless crap to back up my statements…all I got to say is top 25 in final poll 3-4 seasons…and close to top 25 the other season. Second place finish 2 seasons ago…Sweet 16 last season. Played in how many ACC CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES? So we lost…got to play them to win them.

    Notice I get very little response from Jeff. Only comments like I’m going off the cliff…or some crap like that. I only bring Jeff up here, because I understand this is his blog and most everything I see him post, has a negative spin to his opinion(BB related). I however like the way he and you both write(I’m envious), so I read some of this stuff. I’m self-employed and tend to take it easy during this month so I have way too much time on my hands(obviously) I simply would like to see more positive angles from you and Jeff…I know I know…you can’t get positive info from thin air. I “expect”(you don’t like that word for some reason) us to be “competing” for ACC titles (NOTE: when you play in the championship game, you’re competing for the title) I “expect” us to be a NCAA Tourney every year. I’ll be disappointed from time to time, and I hate the losses we’ve endured against teams we should beat. I’ve had to deal with this during Herb…Les…and V. The college BB enviroment has changed. Top 50 teams are capable of beating top 10 teams any night. Until we reach a level of play that puts us into the Top 5 teams regularly, we will lose to teams we shouldn’t.

    One thing I know we have in common…We want the Pack to be a Top 5 team. I’m confident Herb can do it…I’m not sure you do, but staying positive is alot more fun, than expecting the worst.

    If we bomb this season…My support will change completely. When all things come together offensively, I feel like we have a Top 10 team this season…if I didn’t…I wouldn’t waste 2 seconds on this blog supporting Herb.

  17. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 11:29 PM #

    Is pointing out GW’s 7-9 record over last 7 seasons, without pointing out the 3-8 record in first 11 games consistent ?I mean…aren’t you really pointing out that GW has been “competitive� for 2 seasons?…or is 3-8 “competitive�. Then not mentioning the 2-19 record against K prior to…oh…you are consistent.

    First of all, my entry was not intended to sing the praises of GW. I never claimed that Md was competitive with Duke from Day 1. I used GW as an example of what an accurate definition of competitive should be. This defintiion is relevant because State fans and even Lee Fowler throw the term around so much.

    The athletic director you have already expressed blind faith in has stated that State has been competitve with Duke over the last four years. Other State fans, as far removed from reality as Fowler, have made similar comments. It’s not a slam on Sendek to say that he has not been competitive with K….it’s just a simple fact. Claiming anything to the contrary is just silly.

    When I’m discussing Herb’s record, you’ll know it. You won’t have to read between the lines or assume anything.

  18. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 11:40 PM #

    I haven’t ignored any facts

    You consistently ignore the head to head records within the ACC. You also ignore the comparisons of RPI rankings and records with RPI Top 50 among the teams in the ACC. You specifically asked for the comparison, but have not addressed the obvious conclusions from the data.

    I asked twice on the entry titled “RPI and the ACC” what you thought about my evaluation of Sendek and State’s position within the ACC. (I placed him behind K, Roy, Gary, and Skip). If you think Herb’s accomplishments rank above any of those coaches, then provide your evaluation.

    …Strictly looking at top 50 records without looking at who they actually played is a joke.

    Once again, you’ve never responded to my questions about years other than last year. Several years, State only played one top-10 team….yet you drone on and on about how difficult State’s schedule was. Your point has some validity for last year, but doesn’t apply to other three years that Herb fans want to discuss.

    I believed your underlining message was really suggesting that until Herb performs better against Top 50, then he won’t be successful in tourney.

    Yes and no. My point, as expressed in the actual entry, is that teams that sneak into the NCAA Tournament can’t be expected to go very far. State has been a bubble team three of the last four years. Obtaining a high seeding and performing better against the Top 50 go hand in hand.

  19. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 11:48 PM #

    I don’t need to pull out all these meaningless crap to back up my statements…all I got to say is top 25 in final poll 3-4 seasons…and close to top 25 the other season. Second place finish 2 seasons ago…Sweet 16 last season. Played in how many ACC CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES? So we lost…got to play them to win them.

    Ah yes, the new definitions of success. You left out a couple:
    – Discussing ACC tourney winning percentage without mentioning that no titles were won.
    – Discussing consecutive years of making the NCAA tourney, without mentioning how few games were won there.
    – Defeating the last seven national champions over the last four years. (My personal favorite)
    – Beating UNC four times in the last four years (but don’t mention the fact that the coach was run out of town)

    When you stack all of those up against other teams in the ACC, where does NC State fit? A solid fifth place? Not embarassing, but nothing to get excited about if you have ever seen real success.

  20. VaWolf82 12/17/2005 at 11:51 PM #

    In case you are confused about my comments about using predictions to “support” your conclusions:

    Oh…and 3 out of 4 we finished ahead of UNC…including Roy. After this season it will be 4 out of 5…WOW!

    Someone help me out with this. When discussing Herb and NC State, we are not supposed to discuss the first five years because…..well just because. But when analyzing UNC, we are supposed to include the two bad years (and only the two bad years) with the previous coach because…..?

  21. VaWolf82 12/18/2005 at 12:01 AM #

    I simply would like to see more positive angles from you and Jeff…I know I know…you can’t get positive info from thin air.

    My goal (or my motive) is to be as accurate as possible. The past doesn’t predict the future….but there are often clues if we are smart or perceptive enough to discern them. I’ve laid out some trends and stats that I think are pertinent. As I’ve said before, this year will be better, worse, or more of the same. If we have the facts compiled before the real season starts, then we’ll know where the team stands with respect to the recent past.

    The simple fact is that the BB program still lags far behind what I’ve witnessed during Sloan and V’s tenure. I see nothing that makes me think that State is anywhere close to returning to those days. Last year, Lee Fowler specifically mentioned that State would improve this year because several other teams were going to lose key players. So if I take Lee at his word, then the only way State can move up in the conference is for the other teams to fall beneath State. If the athletic director can’t be any more positive than that, then I don’t know where I am going to get more positive notes.

  22. VaWolf82 12/18/2005 at 12:08 AM #

    If we bomb this season…My support will change completely. When all things come together offensively, I feel like we have a Top 10 team this season…if I didn’t…I wouldn’t waste 2 seconds on this blog supporting Herb.

    I really have no idea how the team will do this year. I can easily see the team surpassing last year or falling apart. Instead of Hodge being the focus of the offense, several players might step forward and perform well….making State less predictable and more successful. On the other hand, the other players may not make up for the loss of Hodge and everyone starts looking for someone else to step up…..with the net result being bad….maybe very bad. Over the years, I’ve seen both things happen after the loss of a star.

    There are several trends that I expect to continue:
    Good Defense
    Poor Rebounding
    Hot shooting mixed with cold shooting

    I just really have no feel for where the team will end up. Maybe that’s why they play the games.

  23. PACDADDY 12/18/2005 at 1:13 AM #

    “First of all, my entry was not intended to sing the praises of GW. I never claimed that Md was competitive with Duke from Day 1. I used GW as an example of what an accurate definition of competitive should be. This defintiion is relevant because State fans and even Lee Fowler throw the term around so much.”

    Where was Fowler mentioned in your post? By reading your post I assumed you feel GW has been competitive with K over the past 7 seasons. I simply pointed out that K was essentially 5-30 against K until the last 2.5 seasons…or 3-8 until he had a run the past 2.5 seasons. “Competitive” can mean alot of things…Losing by a close margin or winning? Which is it? If it’s striclty winning…outside of the past 2.5 years, GW has beat K 5 times in ~13 years. Basically all you did was give us “your opinion” on what “competitive” means. If you mean GW has been “competitive with K in last 2.5 years…I agree. Is 4-6 “competitive”..that’s Herb’s record against GW the last 4 seasons…is 4-4 “competitive”..that’s Herb record against WF in the last 3 seasons.

    “You consistently ignore the head to head records within the ACC. You also ignore the comparisons of RPI rankings and records with RPI Top 50 among the teams in the ACC. You specifically asked for the comparison, but have not addressed the obvious conclusions from the data.

    I asked twice on the entry titled “RPI and the ACCâ€? what you thought about my evaluation of Sendek and State’s position within the ACC. (I placed him behind K, Roy, Gary, and Skip). If you think Herb’s accomplishments rank above any of those coaches, then provide your evaluation.”

    I haven’t ignored anything. I happened to use an RPI that actually includes post season. I did address it. I said we didn’t do as well as I expected against WF, but like I said…if you look at Top 25 on Greenfield, we are 13-27 and WF is 16-22. Clearly WF is better, but barely. I fully expected GW to have better record. But it wasn’t as bad as I thought…21-23

    “Once again, you’ve never responded to my questions about years other than last year. Several years, State only played one top-10 team….yet you drone on and on about how difficult State’s schedule was. Your point has some validity for last year, but doesn’t apply to other three years that Herb fans want to discuss.”

    What are you talking about? The data I supplied when I compared our record to Texas, Fla, and Arizona, was during a 4 year period. According to Greensfield RPI we played 22 teams in Top 10….16 of those were Top 5. Not just last season…sheezz…Was Maryland #1 3 seasons ago? We played them 3 times that year. GT finished 6th 2 seasons ago…we swept them that year. We BEAT the same number of top 5 teams than those teams(Texas, Fla and Ari) combined the past 4 seasons.

    “Someone help me out with this. When discussing Herb and NC State, we are not supposed to discuss the first five years because…..well just because. But when analyzing UNC, we are supposed to include the two bad years (and only the two bad years) with the previous coach because…..?”

    I put that in that just to add to my point…it looked good when I typed it. :)However…UNC did play BB those years didn’t they?…It seems they beat UCONN one year…please don’t give the the Mays injury excuse…that can only be used for State fans. 😉

    “The simple fact is that the BB program still lags far behind what I’ve witnessed during Sloan and V’s tenure. I see nothing that makes me think that State is anywhere close to returning to those days. Last year, Lee Fowler specifically mentioned that State would improve this year because several other teams were going to lose key players. So if I take Lee at his word, then the only way State can move up in the conference is for the other teams to fall beneath State. If the athletic director can’t be any more positive than that, then I don’t know where I am going to get more positive notes.”

    Fowlers statement rubbed me the wrong way as well…but is it truthful? Seriously…didn’t certain teams lose players that will make us more competitve? Part of building a program, also includes planning for future. Herb lost Powell…did other teams benefit from his surprising departure? I say yes.

  24. PACDADDY 12/18/2005 at 1:20 AM #

    There are several trends that I expect to continue:
    Good Defense
    Poor Rebounding
    Hot shooting mixed with cold shooting

    I just really have no feel for where the team will end up. Maybe that’s why they play the games.

    The difference is we have an inside presence, we haven’t had since 2003 Tourney. Inside presence gives us more consistently and put pressure on inside to open outside. We have some of the best shooters in the nation, especially when left open. Our guys will learn how to get the ball inside when the opportunity presents itself…before it didn’t matter. The other difference is the toughness of our D on inside. We haven’t had a dominate defender in the post since when? Avie Lester? LOL

  25. VaWolf82 12/18/2005 at 8:27 AM #

    By reading your post I assumed you feel GW has been competitive with K over the past 7 seasons…. “Competitiveâ€? can mean alot of things…Losing by a close margin or winning? ….Basically all you did was give us “your opinionâ€? on what “competitiveâ€? means.

    Now you’re getting it. This blog entry was entry was intended to do several things:
    1) The blog entry was intended to outline my opinion of what being competitive with another program is. GW is competitive with K, even though K obviously has the better program. Herb and State have been competitive with Gary and Skippy (I don’t know why I enjoy calling him that.) over the last 4 years, even though MD and WF have the edge in wins.

    2) To illustrate how silly it is for State fans to claim that the BB team has been competitive with Duke or UNC (with Roy) because of the very small number of wins (O against Roy). Finishing ahead of UNC two years ago just means that other teams (in fact every other team in the ACC) found a way to beat Roy, but Herb couldn’t.

    3) Point out the different contexts where “competitivie” is used. A 3 pt loss is generally considered a “competitive” game. However, just because State has had a competitive game or two against a program doesn’t mean that State was “competitive” with Duke over a longer span of time. (Note that State hasn’t had any recent 3 pt losses to Duke)

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