Bad defense. Bad offense. Bad. State lays egg, loses 76-60

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    Apollo – in general the interweb message board is a place of biploarism.

    That aside, I think most of us realize that the season is a young one and we can still get at large bid. There is a couple of key differences here though:
    1) Gottfried has a track record of college coaching in major conferences.
    2) Gottfried is in year 4.
    3) although its been a long time, state has been a player on a national scale in college basketball.

    I can only tell you that the frustration for me is that I think we’ve reached the ceiling of the Gottfried era…but his performance thus far clearly merits a couple more years to prove that or maintain the results… Results that while not spectacular, are clearly acceptable – especially at this point in his tenure in Raleigh.


    I don’t see anyone calling for Gott to be fired (not me anyway). However, if you don’t see the obvious issues now and previously you are using the wrong glasses.

    – No intensity offense/defense
    – No leadership
    – No true PG…still
    – WTF offense
    – No organization

    Heck we have 10 players we could rotate so why not run the ball wide open? Pressure defense (full court)?

    I think our offense for the past 4 years can be summed up in 2 simple sections:

    1. Transition = Very Good!
    2. 1/2 Court Offense = We suck donkey balls

    So run the dang ball or design an offense that works for your players. I’m not only the ledge or even close. However, is it too much to ask for a team to go all out every game? In your face defense? MOVEMENT on offense?


    it is way too early to be talking about letting Gott go, but its not too early for Debbie to be asking Archie what his timeline is.


    I don’t see anyone calling for coach to be fired but there are several people that have already decided that he will fail and will eventually be fired. Is there a big difference between the two?

    , I see all of those issues and agree with them. That’s not my point. My point is that whenever there are issues football or basketball, several people on here throw their hands up and believe that our current coach is not qualified to get us where we want to be. That should be the last option, not the first.

    Just like ancsu mentioned, people were saying the same thing about DD earlier this year…


    Gott has been a good thing for us no doubt about it. It’s true he may be at his ceiling as well. I guess time will tell.

    As for now he needs figure out how to improve on his weak areas (team wise and his on coaching skills). When the 1/2 time rec league boys are playing harder/better organized than the “main” attraction something needs to change.

    Apollo – I agree that some are quick to move on to be next search. I for one want what we have to work. Whether it does is up to Gott and his ability to motivate/coach/rotate. Oh and figure out what to do with that sad excuse for an offense we have going on at the moment (this could probably be solved with players actually moving & driving).


    Coach G is gonna have to get around to where he went last year in the latter part of January, on the D end, and no doubt will.

    This group is not physically, nor “spiritually” equipped to play man to man. To me, it’s plain and simple.

    Now, Coach might prove me wrong, but extended use of zone is right around the corner, just like last year.

    I know Bill did the charts, and I believe that he demonstrates that indeed, the High Post offense is there, and run to a good deal of efficiency…WHEN good decisions are made, when shots drop, and when they finish with heart at the rim.

    The “true” point guard thing isn’t much of an issue to me. Having a leader on the court is.

    In whichever manner a leader evolves, one thing is for certain. That leader is not made by any coach.


    This group is not physically, nor “spiritually” equipped to play man to man. To me, it’s plain and simple.

    I would love to see an agressive zone especially when Anya is in there to block the rim.

    Offensively it is hard to get into the offense when you are turning the ball over a lot. Cut those down and get some more movement. Gott has proven he can develop an offense.


    This group is not … “spiritually” equipped to play man to man.

    Maybe Abu can get them on their knees in front of Reynolds five times a day…
    ( … and that’s not meant to be any disrespectful about the praying rituals of the followers of Mohammed … just a good exercise in spirituality…)

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!

    Wouldn’t they gather on the old student union side of Reynolds?

    Rick, they’re long. Can you imagine what the passing lanes would look like?

    I think if we go back and look, when they went zone last year, that’s when Warren excelled on that end of the floor.


    The “true” point guard thing isn’t much of an issue… Having a leader on the court is… That leader is not made by any coach.

    The way I’m seeing it…

    1. When the other teams scores … Anthony gets the inbounds pass, brings the ball up and runs the halfcourt offense..

    2. When we get a rebound (nobody laugh or you’ll miss something) … The ball goes to Anthony or Lacey whichever is on that side of the court… More times lately than not.. that’s Lacey and he brings the ball across halfcourt and starts the offense .. and this is when our results seem to be best… plus Cat on the Wing on the fast break when Lacey has to be guarded is our best play by far..

    3. When there’s a press… we GOTT problems… if we even get across halfcourt… the ball could be in anybody’s hands and has to find it’s way to either Anthony or Lacey to start the set play… and that’s when we get the worst results… even when we broke the press…

    Mr. Dog is right …. “Point Guard” is mostly just a title… the way the rotations should work… once the first pass is made… the guys some be more or less equal parts in the equation…

    But there is a difference… let’s say it takes 10 seconds to get up the floor, hold up one finger or two and start the play…
    the next five seconds are absolutely critical… if anyone is sluggish, distracted, makes a wrong move or is hesitant in making that first pass… the whole play snowballs into a mess… then by the time we reorganize our “options” are limited…

    The guy who starts the play has GOTT to know exactly what he wants to do and do exactly that… that’s leadership..

    To some extent maybe that is what Mr. Dog means by “leader”… I wouldn’t dare presume to put words in one who is knowledgeable about basketball as Mr. Dog… but I think, “leader” can man a lot more…. as in the case of KW in the second half against LT or Richard Howell… his entire Senior years on the boards..

    Leadership can come from any position on the floor and it is possible to have more than one “leader” on the court at one time…
    And I might as well add… you can’t have “leaders” without “followers”…

    We have seen glimpses of ‘leadership’ this season… in some games… In some games, we have not seen anything…

    This is what they GOTT to work out… we sure as hell can’t do it from the keyboard…

    When they get this ‘leadership’ thing worked out… we have enough good pieces to put several successful combinations on the floor… but the combinations won’t be right until the leadership is right…

    Coach seems to looking for the right combinations – the right starting five so to speak… that’s what we see… but what he’s really doing is looking for that Tall Leader Person… and waiting for some other guys to decide they will be followers…

    And as he said last night… he and them should have figured all this out weeks ago… and he’s more pissed off than some posters here… ’cause he ain’t figured it out yet…

    Now what’s really GOTT my attention is this…
    and I don’t really want to jinx it by talking about much… just want to know if anybody is seeing and thinking what I’m seeing and thinking…

    Yesterday was totally mucked up before the game even started… let’s just say the kids did not “come out right”… and leave it at that and not call any kid’s name… OK?

    If they all ‘come out right’ the next game (Sat?) … then in my book, whatever happened yesterday didn’t happen at all…
    But if all of the kids don’t “come out right” Next Game… then it’s Official… “I’m worried about the season “…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!

    Some good discussion here and I liked chop’s point of view above – especially concerning the interwebs and forums.

    Not sure if I’m entirely on board with COWDOG in going to more zone defensive looks (or even a wholesale change) – but that could be down the pipeline. Just from my view, I’ve seen what I felt where some good things from the man D – yesterday notwithstanding. Still, I don’t think using more zone looks could hurt – to this point we’ve mainly gone zone in a reactionary manor or to switch looks for a small spell. This seems to be related to the ‘team identity’ concept.

    I very much agree with the following:

    The “true” point guard thing isn’t much of an issue to me. Having a leader on the court is.

    In whichever manner a leader evolves, one thing is for certain. That leader is not made by any coach.

    I don’t think this can be underestimated how much a ‘team leader’ impacts both team dynamic and team identity. Sure, more often than not a team will take on the personality of the coach, but (I feel) you need general among the troops. Think this doesn’t matter? I suggest re-watching ‘Survive and Advance’ (streaming on Netflix, btw). Sidney was the point, but there was no question that Whittenburg was the leader of that team. Someone has to set the tone – both in the locker room and on the court.

    In Gottfried’s first season we had CJ Williams and senior transfer Alex Johnson – both lauded by staff and teammates for their leadership. That team made the Sweet 16. It’s not a direct correlation, but pretty much the same exact group of players had won 5 ACC games the previous season. Yes, the coaching staff was the obvious change – but there was also a change in team demeanor and purpose. That comes from a leader. It was Williams and Johnson that ensured Howell stayed on track while getting in shape. Williams and Johnson helped prod Leslie and Brown into realizing their potential. That team squeaked into the NCAA Tournament, but were light years ahead of the previous iteration of the team.

    The next season, we had a lot of talent and some hard workers (Howell) – but it seemed no one stepped up to really take the reigns. There were some good moments and victories, but the team always seemed rudderless and the season ended with a mostly listless loss to Temple in the NCAA Tournament.

    Last season of course we had Warren, who was an amazing one man army at times. Now here we are this season. Good kids who want to perform well and succeed … it’s no secret though that something may be a little off. We need direction. The coach is paid for that, sure – but every team needs that one guy/gal or group of guys/gals to really whip the troops into shape. Lacey would be the obvious candidate, but ‘best player’ does not automatically mean ‘leader’ (that’s not a shot at Lacey, it’s just a different dynamic).

    Coaching matters. Talent yields higher potential. Teams win games though. A team needs a leader. With the amount of roster turnover in programs today, I think it would be very interesting to take a look at successful seasons for various programs and identify the team leaders for that particular team. I think it would be fascinating to look at Kentucky under Calipari. The common denominators for successful teams are of course coaching and talent, but even the Cheats – with a great coach and tons of talent – get relegated to the NIT sometimes. Someone has to step up.


    That leader is not made by any coach.


    It’s the age old question for the philosophical types here and elsewhere…

    “Do Times make the Man or does Man make the Times?”

    Putting philosophy aside for the present moment…

    At the most fundamental level…
    College Basketball, indeed all sports at all levels, including the Pros, are…
    “Player Development Businesses”.

    And therefore, All Coaches should have a great deal to do with bringing the “natural leadership abilities’ of their kids to the front and “improving” thereupon.

    If not the case, none of us would have ever played organized ball after the first season…

    in which case, dare I say… we would NOT have any organized sports to play or watch.

    Leaders are developed by Coaches.

    which is NOT what Mr. Dog said…

    THE Leader is made ( by the TEAM he is on ) and not ANY ( one ) Coach.

    to which point, Mr. Dog is absolutely correct…

    Thus the conundrum oof bi-polarism…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!

    Typical state fan bi-polar reaction. Yes, we played horrible. Yes, we lacked effort. Yes, it’s coach’s fault. But how many of you said the same thing about DD earlier this year? Calm down and let the man fix it…

    This is the page I am on. Was I happy with the game yesterday? Hell no! Do I see and understand what needs to be done to improve? Yes but only to the extent that I am not at practice everyday. Another Valvano story – he used to have open walk through practices before games in Carmichael Gym. I recall listening and watching him and having the light bulb go off as to why he did certain things in game situations and how he rotated the lineup that would have been WTF if I had not been at the practice.

    I don’t know that Gott can be a legendary coach but I think he might could build a consistent top 20 program with higher potential. That is really all Valvano did. Sloan built a top notch program but around three guys for a few years. Before and after that he was basically a top 20 with high potential also. Valvano happens to stand out cause he was so damn personable.

    After the hell we went through at hands of UNC BOT and our own administration and then the bad coaches (although I really hoped Sid would have worked out but I never thought it would) I hate too see Gott elevate us to some respectability and then get torn apart by a Herb like situation. I think the last three years has earned him at least two more and to see what he has in the tank. I ain’t giving up yet but he has a lot to fix.


    Sidney was the point, but there was no question that Whittenburg was the leader of that team

    Wufpup just put in writing why I was so WTF at the Lowe hiring. Having been around that team Whitt would have been the guy I gambled house money on if I was going to do something as stupid as what we did.


    Rick, they’re long. Can you imagine what the passing lanes would look like?

    If they played it aggressively they could make it a tough thing to score on.

    We did just this in one of the early games when a team was shooting real well. It was very effective


    I don’t know that Gott can be a legendary coach but I think he might could build a consistent top 20 program with higher potential

    It send to me, outside of showin frustration, the discussion had been why we are not and what could get us there.


    Typical state fan bi-polarism…

    We are indeed our own “worst enemy”…
    If “We” ever GOTT our sh$t together… nobody would beat us…

    But instead….we rather settle for watching the same bi-polarism spread to neighboring counties as it sprays doom and despair like a metastasized cancer.

    I don’t never did get that.

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!

    Zone defense wasn’t half bad last year, but it wasn’t good either. We may not be equipped to play suffocating man d, but that’s not really the issue. The problem is that we consistently underachieve on that end. We’re below average, in man or zone

    Observations on the gott era: we’re always better in transition, typically get mired in half court games against top-64 defenses. We’re better with some token half or 3/4 court pressure, or full court press.

    For all gott’s talk about what he learned while on sabbatical from the coaching ranks, I’ve yet to see it. Same question marks year after year. The league and coaches are collectively better than 3 years ago. This ain’t bama or LA.

    I’ll take a teacher, not a salesman


    There are a lot of good thoughts in here. Let me pull together some quick points that are pulled from a lot of different posts that I won’t quote.

    – Team Chemistry: It’s obvious we’ve got problems this year. It’s the third year in a row. Really, the only year we didn’t was when we had two selfless senior leaders and a brand new head coach (which creates more likeliness to buy in). While a leader doesn’t create chemistry, he tolerates a lack of it and lets it fester. We had chemistry issues under Lowe as well, and let’s be honest, he was a poor leader. I think only once in 20 years have I heard of chemistry issues of a K coached Duke team. Think Tony Bennett’s squads have chemistry problems?

    – How to actually improve this year’s squad: We struggle so mightily in the half court on offense, that we really need to get out on the break. This was predictable, and I’d said before the season started that this is where we’d miss Warren the most (well, this and end of game situations). Who was going to go score with the shot clock winding down? Our strength this year is depth. Press and go ten deep. I suspect it will also fix the chemistry problems. I’m a huge fan of zones, particularly at the college level. If you’ve got to play a half court set, put us in a 2-1-2 or 2-3 and put Anya in the middle. That’s going to be one long zone. If someone starts lighting it up, play a box and one and put Cat on the one. This game isn’t that hard. That’s at most 3 things to practice.

    – Because I believe I know where this is headed = I want to fire Gott: Let me make this clear. I don’t want to fire Gott. This is the best we’ve had it since V. I wasn’t a fan of the hire initially, but wanted it to work out and hoped with Lutz we’d have a better shot. I’ve always argued that you’ve got to dance every year before you can make the next step. It’s also pretty clear to me where this is ultimately going to end up though. We’re not improving. I have no clue where recruiting is going to end up this year, but it’s not looking good. We’re on the bubble at best barring something unforeseen in ACC play. Our momentum as a program is gone, as is Gott’s best recruiting class. We’re treading water.

    – Cat vs Leslie at the point: It really doesn’t matter. We have two combo guards and no point guards. We either have to get out on the break and just let these guys score, or one of them has to “transport the basketball” and get us into our set. Forcing Cat to try and be a point really takes away from what he does best. He wasn’t a McDonald’s AA because he could pass. He was a McDonald’s AA because he broke all of Iverson’s scoring records.

    – Expectations of a football coach vs a basketball coach at NC State: Let’s be honest, NC State football vs. NC State basketball are two entirely different animals. We’re a .500 football team in a basketball conference, with mid rate facilities among Power 5 schools, are in a state with way too many D1 programs relative to the talent level and typically have a very small budget. In basketball, we’re a basketball school, in a basketball league, that has won two national titles, has top notch facilities, has a top 15 valued brand and a big budget. The expectations of performance of our coaches must be analyzed against the larger backdrop. Yes, I understand that football is king for revenue, but the football coach at NC State is going to get a lot more leeway than the basketball coach. It comes with the gig.

    – Gott’s track record: He’s trending at State to about what he did at Alabama. He’s got more built in advantages here, but he’s got a much tougher neighborhood as well. We’re in year 4. I think we see the type of program he can build here. The question to me is whether that is good enough.

    – The Arch effect: Put me in the camp that Arch as a new coach at NC State would have been a complete disaster. He needed to go and season, and I’m frankly surprised that he got a gig as good as Dayton to do it at. If he keeps winning though, he’s really our best best for what this fan base really wants — a coach that might be able to break through and one that will stay here if he does. If he puts Dayton back in the Sweet 16 this year or next, then it’s going to force some tough decisions. Duke keeps sending K’s disciples out to try to find one to assume the throne. Ironically, Arch may prove to be better than any of them, and at a much less favorable gig (i.e. Dayton vs. Seton Hall, Mizzou, Stanford or Marquette).

    – DD threads from earlier in the year: My position on DD this year was that he was not in any threat to be fired because of the bigger picture. The coordinators were in big trouble though if they didn’t change things up. I ranted on the Wildcat, the lack of an actual running game initiated from a balanced set, and the lack of pressure on defense. Those three things changed right as we hit the light part of the schedule. We finished strong and most fans are happy. Did we finish strong because of weak opponents or was it more because we fixed what tactically ailed us? The UCF game was promising because that was our best win of the year.

    – Whether DD will actually work out at NC State: I think he’s got the best shot since Sheridan. By working out, I don’t mean that I see us competing for conference titles year in and year out. I mean making us bowl eligible year in and year out, steadily building towards 9-3 type of years where we might break through one year if everything breaks our way and running a clean program.

    – The bigger picture on DD: Many fans are tickled pink over the UNC and bowl wins, but I am afraid the verdict is still out. We fired TOB, Amato and MOC for going 22-26, 25-31 and 26-30 in conference. That’s a combined .456 in conference and all three were deemed unacceptable and shown the door. DD is currently 3-13. To even match TOB’s .458, DD is going to have to go 19-13 over the next 32 conference games. That doesn’t sound so tough, until you break it out by the years. That means we can have one 4-4 year and then have to have 3 5-3 years. MOC, TOB and Amato combined only had 4 seasons of 5-3 or better, and none of them had to play FSU, Clemson and Louisville every single season. It’s an uphill road for DD just to get to where we’ve trended at over the last 20 years. Granted, given the 0-8 free pass in year one, if DD actually was sitting at .458 by the end of year 6, we’d probably build a statue for him.



    You folks have been busy. I just finished installing a new LED in the cabinet where the original 55 rear projection and the 55 side projection lived….and the LED was an interesting install.

    GT is whipping up on Miss State….and TCU done hurt Old Miss (not a good night for Miss)…

    After a glass of wine….here are my thoughts. I do have LTR’s in the Lenovo Champion’s club. I could eat a lot cheaper and then go to the game, but I like it and my GK’s and daughter and, especially, my wife LOVES it. SO we will be there….some rain, sleet, snow, dark of night or lack of offense/defense. Last night was a bummer.

    It all started harmlessly when Gott wore the SAME light blue shirt that he did to the La Tech game and we barely pulled that one out. BUT, we did not seen panicked. In fact, when we got the lead, there was no doubt that we would keep it and win.

    Don’t know what happened to that team….but they did NOT show up.

    One of the discussions was about Coach G and how we ended up with him and the process. My memory is that we got turned down for a few and that Shaka Smart said YES. We flew in a COVEY of lawyers and they stayed up all Saturday night and hammered out a deal. It was a GOOD deal for Shaka and us and the lawyers had a letter of intent and the contract was ready to be signed.

    Shaka did NOT back out. He was ready to go….but his VERY pregnant wife pulled the rug out. She was staying in Richmond with her OBGYN and having their first child there and really had no plans to move to Raleigh. End of Discussion. You can’t really fault Debbie for that little “out of the blue”. THEN, we were really without Plan Z….as we had used up ALL of our “NCSU is a GREAT BB School…” capital. Debbie really did, sort of, lose it. She fired off an email that was more controversial than some of the president’s executive orders….but she did have ONE ace. I, and several others here, were in email communication with her late that Sunday evening. She said that she was trying to be honest with us, but had ONE really intriguing option….and that she was trying to “land that one”. She did…She did confirm the rumors the next day well before the presser….

    SO, that is how we GOT GOTT…

    As to the team….I am with a LOT of folks here….Gott got upset…as well he should have been….but it does make we wonder WHY a group of guys that showed a LOT of promise….as well as the “desire to win” lost it over the Christmas holiday. Trevor did not hit diddly….and BJ was just “there”….almost concentrating on getting more blocks that shots.

    The younger kids played great. But we have MORE older folks that usual. We need to get Turner and Lacey and Cat and Washington ALL revved up. Duke looked lethargic against Wofford for about 19 minutes….then they did their DUKE KILLS for the second half. They will destroy us unless we learn to get the ball down and understand HOW to score against a tough D.

    Time will tell. Pitt is coming to town and we will be there.

    Happy New Year…


    For all gott’s talk about what he learned while on sabbatical from the coaching ranks, I’ve yet to see it. Same question marks year after year.

    I like Gottfried, but I think this assessment is entirely fair.

    Some good comments in this thread.

    Welp, this season’s not over – let’s see if Gottfried’s fire-and-brimstone after the Cincy debacle has any impact. Life of a State fan: a little hope, a little ‘never say die’ attitude, and a whole lot of despair and angst 🙂 .

    And yes, Happy New Year!


    Gott has been coaching a good long while. His results are what they are. I wouldn’t expect any major deviations from what he has shown in the record books or on the floor.

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