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Grey: I hope and sincerely want your bullish position to be rewarded. That is the best possible outcome for NC State and our collective enjoyment of the entertainment business that is NC State football.
rye, I am bullish in my regard for our football program for the reason you state below: “Many of the pieces are in place.” It is time to reap the rewards of a solid football program. While I don’t think the W/L record in our previous seasons under Doeren is indicative of where we are program wise, it is time to have the ultimate measure of success to come to fruition. I think 2017 is just the beginning of something beyond most Wolfpacker’s dreams.
As Raider Al said, “just win baby.” This season will tell us a lot. Many of the pieces are in place and seemingly the most of the DD era.
Al Davis is known for his “Just win, baby” but that was not the philosophy that he coached and managed by. He told coach Hue Jackson: ‘Hue, don’t believe in plays. Believe in players and eventually the players will make plays for you.’
Davis was a strong advocate for civil rights and would not allow his players to travel to cities where the white and black players had to stay in separate hotels. Those who think “Just win, baby.” represented Al Davis’s fundamental philosophy are sadly mistaken.
rye, we’ve had many points and counterpoints discussed in this thread. I am bullish on NC State but I hope I haven’t been boorish in stated my position.
Go Pack!!
Raider Al was a complex man. He did some good thing like what you cite. He also tried to hold tax payers over as barrel for personal gain and definitely fostered an environment where his franchise was linked to violence. I think that “just win baby” actually fits him fairly well. He wasn’t making a move (even like wthose you reference) without some sort of end game.
I like DD and think he is doing many things right from a program management perspective. He is a coach I would send my child to play for (unlike Fedora, Petrino, Jimbo Fisher, etc.).
Eventually though, the results have to be shown on the field. Hopefully it starts this year and NC State is rewarded with its version of Frank Beamer. Our fans have certainly hoped for this while being plenty patient with coach after coach, hoping they are seeing “seeds of greatness.” We’re long overdue for one of those to actually take root and blossom.
He certainly has a way of talking in nonsensical circles.
Don’t let your inability to understand the complexity of my post fool you into thinking they are nonsensical or circular.
ryebread and a few others may not agree in part or totally with what I say but they understand it.
Your one sentence posts remind me of some paper classes at another school just west of here. Who’s writing you posts for you? McCallum?
I like DD and think he is doing many things right from a program management perspective. He is a coach I would send my child to play for (unlike Fedora, Petrino, Jimbo Fisher, etc.).
Eventually though, the results have to be shown on the field. Hopefully it starts this year and NC State is rewarded with its version of Frank Beamer. Our fans have certainly hoped for this while being plenty patient with coach after coach, hoping they are seeing “seeds of greatness.” We’re long overdue for one of those to actually take root and blossom.
rye, Thanks for the conversation over the last several weeks. We for sure agree that it is time for some wins and lots of them.
BTW We have 3 commitments who by one rating service or another are 4-star recruits. Our 4th recruit is one of if not the best high school kickers in the country. Of particular note is our QB commitment. He has been declared MVP of every Elite11 quarterback camp he’s been to. These are coaching camps and it is said that there has not been a lot of coaching for him — not needed. He is being the Pied Piper of New Jersey recruiting top rated players to join him at NC State. Reports from the camps are that he is hitting throws all over the field and leading receivers perfectly on deep throws.
There has got to be a negative, right? Well, he is only 6-2, 185 pounds. But, get this, he’s not playing baseball so he can hit the weight room and pick up some muscle for football.
He is solid NC State, wearing an NC State hat and flashing the wolfie sign at one of the Elite11 camps. He has told Doeren and Drink and McDonald he is solid committed, no chance of him going anywhere else.
Remember when Gallaspy, Hines, Roseboro, McGirt and others at the NC/SC Shrine game decided to go to NC State together? That kind of relationships are being developed in several places. Enough, enough.
Go Pack!!
^ I trust your comments about the qb commit. I dont watch film on high school juniors as I dont think that one can take anything away from it. Glad he is doing well at camps. But in short this kid is at minimum 3 years away from contributing to this program. And a lot can happen between now and then. Talk on the other site is that some of the bigger boys are going to come hard at Person and Graves is going to be hard to keep if Tech keeps making a strong push/
In short DD has coached himself into the proverbial corner. Its basically all or nothing this season or I think the wheels come off from every angle. Fan support, recruiting, etc. At some point you simply run out of time. You can keep saying these things take time yada yada yada but at some point he has to win more than 3 games in conference. Throttling USC would be a tremendous start to the season and it would build crazy momentum on and off the field.
CBS Sports just ranked Doeren 59th, so there’s that.
Dave Doeren (50): Doeren just doesn’t receive a lot of respect in our rankings, as he has fallen for the second straight year despite going to three straight bowl games. I’m guessing the reason is that he’s 9-23 in ACC play
CBS Sports just ranked Doeren 59th, so there’s that.
Dave Doeren (50): Doeren just doesn’t receive a lot of respect in our rankings, as he has fallen for the second straight year despite going to three straight bowl games. I’m guessing the reason is that he’s 9-23 in ACC play
LOL I love how those guys (and you guys) keep looking to 2013 to rate a coach in 2017. No mention of Doeren’s Wolfpack beating 4 coaches rated above him — Clausen, Babers, Kelly and Fedora.
I suppose Chip Kelly’s 4-8 record should put him in the top 25. Go figure.
I trust your comments about the qb commit. I dont watch film on high school juniors as I dont think that one can take anything away from it. Glad he is doing well at camps. But in short this kid is at minimum 3 years away from contributing to this program. And a lot can happen between now and then. Talk on the other site…
Nearly all coaches watch HS Jr. game film. Recruiting starts well before an elite player is in his Sr. year of HS. Leary will be ready to start his soph year after Finley and McClendon graduate. That fits your 3 year projection.
As for talk on the other site… the nervous nelly’s are afraid the big boys are going to take our recruits away from little ole us. Too bad. How sad. But really, how often does that actually happen? We win some and we lose some. We took Frasier when he was committed to FSU and held off Alabama when Nick Saban himself did and in home visit. Like it would have made a difference either way. 🙁
At some point you simply run out of time. You can keep saying these things take time yada yada yada but at some point he has to win more than 3 games in conference.
I don’t think I’ve said things take time. What I have said is Doeren started with nearly an empty cupboard and I’ve said we hit a bump in 2016 — missing field goals, dropping interceptions, etc., losing games which we could have won — which would have put 2016 right on schedule for resurrecting a program.
Fedora started with
Black Santa’srecruits and has had an up and down tour of duty. True it has been more up than down, yet he is only 50/50 with the Pack. We will find out what kind of coach he is without Davis’s recruits and a first round NFL pick for a QB.
I’ve been clear in my posts that IMO Doeren needs a good season in 2016. I don’t have numbers like some here who can guarantee he will be fired if… What I can guarantee is that Debbie Yow will sit down with Dave Doeren at the end of 2016 to discuss the future of Wolfpack football and the direction it’s going. I can almost guarantee that no pig farmers or other fat cats will be in that meeting. I trust Debbie Yow to make a sound decision and I expect that Chancellor Woodson will back her decision 100%.
I think we will have a good season including winning more conference games than we lose. I can’t tell from your post which way you are leaning but I do get you are supportive of the football program.
I enjoy discussions like this and hope we have more in the future. 😉
its posts like this one that makes me think you are just not very bright
Just when I say I enjoy discussing Wolfpack football with you, you throw out another one-line, spit-in-the-face post insulting my intelligence. Aside from picking the low-hanging fruit, do you realize how bad that makes you look?
You don’t have to be bright to see that these yahoos rated
45 (I left out Derek Mason) coaches above Doeren after he beat them in 2016. That’s 5 coaches he beat on the field in 2016 they rate as better than Doeren. What are the smoking?They rate Kelly in the top 25. Why? That idiot threw the ball over and over in a hurricane. Even a dumbass like me can see that’s not top 25 coaching. Even ole number 59 knew better than that. With the best player in the country, he is 4-8 for the year. Top 25 my not too bright arse.
The 59th rated coach in P-5 football’s team is preseason 24th in one national poll. How does a coach who is the 59th best out of 65 do that? Los Vegas thinks dummy Dave’s team is about a TD favorite over a much better rated coach at South Carolina.
They needed excuses to rate some coaches lower than others. Besides they knew that rating Dave low would be popular on the Wolfpack sports message boards.
CBS Sports just ranked Doeren 59th, so there’s that.
CBS Sports just rated 5 coaches that Doeren beat last season as better then he is. That’s worth repeating. Doeren beat Fedora, Kelly, Clausen, Baber and Mason in 2016 yet these yahoos don’t respect Doeren because he has had trouble beating FSU, Clemson, L’ville and EweNC who they have to play every year. Three are top 15 teams and one a top 25 team.
I don’t like that we haven’t won many conference games any more than the next fan, but rating 5 coaches Doeren beat as better than he is? WTF?
The breakout:
O line- significant returning players with lots of snaps. Question mark at center
Te- does State throw to the TE?
wideouts-depth and some talent. Harmon and Louis, nice combination.
Running backs-Samuels and Hines in space, Gallaspy in gaps
QB-experience and options
Not displeased with that side of the ball
D line-should be loaded. Talent and lots of depth, ability to continuously rotate quality throughout the game.
Linebackers-Moore and Fernandez both solid and decent, nothing off charts but not an issue
D backs-limited experience with some holes. Strong effort by d line should take some pressure off them
Kicking-punter excellent, automatic 3 points ain’t happening
Coaching- no faith
McCallum
This is very straight forward and IMO right on the money.
The breakout:
O line- significant returning players with lots of snaps. Question mark at center
Te- does State throw to the TE?
wideouts-depth and some talent. Harmon and Louis, nice combination.
Running backs-Samuels and Hines in space, Gallaspy in gaps
QB-experience and options
Not displeased with that side of the ball
D line-should be loaded. Talent and lots of depth, ability to continuously rotate quality throughout the game.
Linebackers-Moore and Fernandez both solid and decent, nothing off charts but not an issue
D backs-limited experience with some holes. Strong effort by d line should take some pressure off them
Kicking-punter excellent, automatic 3 points ain’t happening
Coaching- no faith
Just a few comments:
O-line- yes, center is a question mark and one with several viable solutions
TE- State rarely throws to TE. Our TE is primarily a run-blocker.
DB- These guys could surprise us. In the spring “Game” we played mostly press coverage. In some circumstances we were rolling our boundary CB into what would normally be a safety’s position and using a safety to fill and cover on the field side. This should help out our coverage on short passes that hurt us so much last year. We are putting defenders where defenders need to be. The “safety” corner can cover the deep ball to that side while the safeties are free to help out underneath. I know. TMI
Kicker- I’m not selling out the FG kicker just yet. The grad transfer could be a nice find.
By “Coaching- no faith” I must assume you mean head coach. Otherwise I’d say I have more confidence/faith in this group of assistant coaches than any since Chuck Amato’s first year — and only his first year. I’ve said enough already about the HC. He is the one who put all this together. With this array of talent we may not have as many controversial decisions to make. I don’t do a lot of ‘hoping’ but this is one thing I am hoping for.If we have a shakiness in our coaching set-up IMO it’s the OC, Drinkwitz. He’s inexperienced but we have veterans around him so he’s got support. George McDonald was assistant HC at Syracuse and has OC experience.
George McDonald?
Didn’t he invent a new type of handle for the Kohler faucet?
Nothing special roaming the sidelines or press box in Raleigh.
Standard middle of the road bunch, they put in their hours but so does everyone else. If they are “special” it should have shown itself by now.
If they struggle or lose to SC then get ready for the classic 6-5 to 5-6 finish, 3-5 in conference.
McCallum
CBS Sports just ranked Doeren 59th, so there’s that.
CBS Sports just rated 5 coaches that Doeren beat last season as better then he is. That’s worth repeating. Doeren beat Fedora, Kelly, Clausen, Baber and Mason in 2016 yet these yahoos don’t respect Doeren because he has had trouble beating FSU, Clemson, L’ville and EweNC who they have to play every year. Three are top 15 teams and one a top 25 team.
I don’t like that we haven’t won many conference games any more than the next fan, but rating 5 coaches Doeren beat as better than he is? WTF?
by that incredible logic you are saying Scottie Montgomery and Steve Add are better coaches than DD. It doesnt work like that dude.
Standard middle of the road bunch, they put in their hours but so does everyone else. If they are “special” it should have shown itself by now.
George McDonald? I think he invented a new type handle for the commode, not the faucet.
One poster here points out how recruiting is trending in the wrong direction. McCallum, you point out how well our various position players are situated then say in essence our coaches are ordinary. Leaves me wondering how they got to be doing so well.
Half the coaches are recent hires — 2 will be coaching their first season with the Pack and 2 will be coaching their second season this fall. All I said was I had confidence/faith in the coaches.
You judge coaches by how they are “roaming the sidelines and press box.” I judge by performance on the field. IMO The failure of the kicker doesn’t negate otherwise good coaching.
by that incredible logic you are saying Scottie Montgomery and Steve Add are better coaches than DD. It doesnt work like that dude.
You must think the readers of SFN are incredibly dense to imply that 5 coaches are all better than the 59th rated coach they couldn’t beat. It doesn’t work like that dud. By your logic Doeren is a better coach than Sweeney, Fisher, Patrino and Richt. After all they did beat him which seems to be your incredible logic that he is the better rated coach.
Montgomery’s team was better prepared than Doeren’s team. FWIW I do think Addazio actually did a better coaching job than Doeren in 2016 but all I have to go on is his W/L record and his game vs the Pack. I don’t have the secret logic that you and CBS Sports have.
State doesn’t have overall worse or better players than it did 20 years ago or 30 years ago if you are measuring by end of line performance. In fact bumps in talent, actualized by NFL success or drafting, hasn’t done much to bump State’s performance by much at all.
There is some talent there which was put in place by the current staff but as I said, there is nothing special on the sidelines or the press box.
On field performance gives witness to my position and until State consistently moves beyond 6-5,5-6,7-4,3-8,4-7 then no stated position or line of reasoning matters.
Everyone has reason to believe they will good, emotion and attachment in themselves cause that.
I believe nothing otherwise until I’m shown evidence of concrete, objective proof.
That means Ws and Ls.
McCallum
I tend to agree with McCallum’s views on this. His positional breakdown was very solid. The proof of overall is in the wins and losses. We’ve had spot talent for a long, long, time, but have never been able to put it together.
I have a couple of addditional thoughts:
– I think some of our positional coaches are quite good — Ledford and Kitchings in particular. I also like Hux far more than most and think his experience is needed and valuable given all the young coaches.
– I wasn’t sold on the Drink hire, and last year did nothing to make me feel any better about it. Signing the QB though is very promising. While the cynic in me says that we’ve had nothing at QB since Glennon, that there’s no one we’ve put out that a good QB couldn’t beat out, and that with Rivers, Wilson and Glennon, NC State has shown QBs that you can make the NFL from here, I also know we really had nothing in the pipeline from Canada. Drink gave us something this past year and has signed a good recruit. That is a clear step in the right direction.
– Grey and I are going to have to agree to disagree regarding special teams. I see nothing special about our kicking game. Our coverage on kicks is the high point, and that is definitely good. I still like the Beamer plan.Mac, Hard to argue what you say about the bottom line. I’m just a guy who is interested in Wolfpack football and want to talk, speculate, etc. Nothing much to talk about if it’s restricted to December 2017. Not disagreeing with you at all, just stating my intent and purpose for discussion now, not later.
BTW I really did think your assessment of the Pack’s strengths and weaknesses was spot on. I was both surprised and pleased by your positive overall view of the team in 2017. My comments were intended to add to, not detract from your post.
Grey
This is what I see looking out of the windshield. Looking in the rear view mirror I still see the past which must improve.
Cute analogy, but it falls apart upon closer examination. Before nearly every FB and BB season, there are optimistic projections made that soon wither once the season starts. I may be forgetting something, but it seems like the only time a State team has exceeded expectations in the Internet era is when there are literally no expectations. (Not that having no expectations is a good thing.)
So what you see as a windshield is just another optimistic projection for me. I hope yours turns out better than most, but I wouldn’t bet any money on it.
– Grey and I are going to have to agree to disagree regarding special teams. I see nothing special about our kicking game. Our coverage on kicks is the high point, and that is definitely good. I still like the Beamer plan.
I don’t know if we disagree on as much as you might think. Our differences tend to be point of view. I know I tend to review the past and declare it complete and then look at the future and what we are doing to impact it. IMO you put more emphasis on the past performance and how it predicts the future. Either way the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.
Don’t know if you were at the spring “game” or not but Special Teams were emphasized. Entire sections of the practice were devoted to special teams with emphasis on blocking. The special teams players were divided into teams who competed for some reward.
The Super Bowl was a look at how kick-offs may be in the future. High kicks to somewhere between the G-line and the 5 with coverage stopping kick returns short of the 20. That could explain why we were able to put it out of the end zone early on but were short later in the season.
We will not know about the actual kicking until we see it in games. Our kicker was very good in practice last year and we all know what that meant. Good in practice, not so good in games makes coaching decisions especially tough, not a lot to base decisions on.
Not sure but I think we have a preferred walk-on who is reportedly a good kick-off man. At least Doeren is addressing the needs, not just hoping.
I’m solidly in your camp about the coaches. Hux has been a steadying influence with the young defensive coaches. I don’t like the idea of firing a guy who has done so much for the team. So… I hope he retires fairly soon and Doeren attracts a young, innovative DC like Brent Venables at Clemson.
I know I’m repeating myself here but Doeren has said that our O-line couldn’t block our D-line last year and this year they are very competitive. Don’t want to read too much into that but with our D-line that sounds like good news. Good job, Coach Ledford. In my response to McCallum’s team analysis I reported on what I saw our DBs doing this past spring. Could be the influence of that new safties coach, Aaron Henry. Wouldn’t that be cool?
Darn, rye. Wish we were chatting about this over “liquid refreshments.” Looking forward to you next thoughts. And when is Mr. DOG weighing in?
Cute analogy, but it falls apart upon closer examination. Before nearly every FB and BB season, there are optimistic projections made that soon wither once the season starts.
I beg to differ. What falls apart is your misconstruing the “rear view mirror/windshield” analogy to mean Projections. My cute analogy has nothing to do with projecting the future but instead… well, read it in my actual post pasted below.
Sports psychologists have a concept
calledI call “complete the past.” One successful coach I know of actually uses the Rear view Mirror/Windshield analogy in the first team meeting after the previous game to complete the past. He writes what happened — the good and the bad — inside a rear view mirror he draws on the white board. After acknowledging and covering “the past” they declare the past complete and move to the white board with the “windshield” on it. The windshield is symbolic of looking forward to what they are going to do to get ready for the next game. Over simplification I’m sure but filing the past in the past drawer gives a different future than filing the past in the present drawer (being mindful of the past).There is one piece missing from the above analogy and that is being informed by the past. Even looking to the future we are foolish to ignore the past, i.e., being informed by the past. The Wolfpack spring practices were designed looking to the future after being informed by the past. Mistakes in the future are not a result of ignoring the past but are a matter of not being informed by the past. We have to get the past out of our future or we are doomed to repeat it. This is true in all of life — our businesses, our marriage, our entire lives.
We mistakenly think that we can ignore the past and it will go away or we can forget the past. Look and see. How much of your past that you want to forget have you actually forgotten? Not much I’d bet. The best we can do is acknowledge the past and declare it complete. Acknowledging the past is telling the truth about it. Without acknowledging the past we cannot declare it complete and move on.
That is what the coach above is doing with his team by examining what’s in the rear view mirror — acknowledging the past. Having done this he can declare the past complete and move on to preparing for the future. The future he prepares for is not given by the past but is informed by the past. Whew!!
Ever wonder why some coaches are successful and others are not? You think it’s because coach “X” knows plays coach “Y” doesn’t know? Or one coach calls better time outs than the others? You can hire coaches for thousands instead of millions if football knowledge is all it takes to be a successful head coach. Being informed by the past, not being used by the past is one of the difference makers in determining success or failure. (I’m pretty sure wolfpack92owen will see this as my way of talking in nonsensical circles. Discounting that which we don’t understand is a way of coping with it. I think Albert Einstein talks in nonsensical circles. And no, I’m not comparing myself to Einstein. but embarrassingly so with wolfpack92owen.)
If in my posts you see projections, either I badly made my point or you badly misconstrued what I wrote. My occurrences of “looking out of the windshield” are attempts to see where we are going, not predicting where we are going. My analogies of looking in the rear view mirror are just that — people looking in the rear view mirror to see where they/we are going. I don’t steer my car looking in the rear view mirror, I steer it based on what I see looking out of the windshield. Likewise when I look to see where the Wolfpack is going in the future I don’t look at the past even though I am informed by the past.
My occurrences of “looking out of the windshield” are attempts to see where we are going, not predicting where we are going.
Sorry, but I don’t see how you can claim to know where we are going and that your rosy view is something other than a prediction. Doesn’t matter I guess, since we’ll see what we’ll see soon enough.
rye,
In some post I wrongly denied starting the “past” conversation. I did mention the pertinence of the past first. Sorry about that. 🙂
Grey
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