Gee, why do State fans complain about ACC officiating?

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Anyone who has ever watched an NC State game, please tell me how many times do you think Richard Howell would get away with this? I guess John Clougherty and the ACC officials haven’t yet identified this tendency from Miami.

I can’t wait for some jack ass to tell me how State should just do more/better to win games. Can’t wait to hear who we should just make our free throws on a day that we made ~85% of our free throws. Can’t wait to hear about how we should be held to a higher standard than our opponent in almost every game.

What I genuinely can’t wait to learn from one of our discerning fans is the dispersion of fouls from the moment NC State got ahead by 10 points to the time we were down six points. A rough estimate from sitting in the crowd was something like 2 for physical Miami to 8 fouls for State, including a couple of obviously clean blocks and a foul on Rodney Purvis on defense for running five feet behind his man.

We’ve got a ton on the blog, so don’t ignore some of the other recent entries on the blog and on our message forums.

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58 Responses to Gee, why do State fans complain about ACC officiating?

  1. 61Packer 02/03/2013 at 8:01 PM #

    I won’t try to follow ADVENTUROO as he pretty much said it all. But one other thing that needs to be said is that this makes the 4th time in 4 ACC losses that we haven’t been able to hold a lead late in the game.

    This team, despite all its good qualities, and there are many, couldn’t identify good defense in a Perry Mason courtroom, let alone on a basketball court.

    As inconceivable as it sounds, a team picked 6th in the nation could end up 6th in the conference. Just about every player has shown great improvement this season, but we don’t play team defense, and until we start stopping the opponent at critical times, we’re going to end up playing on Thursday in the ACCT. The nitwit expansion of conferences makes it all but impossible for teams finishing out of the top 4 in the final league standings to have a meaningful post-season.

    Due to significant lack of depth, the Wolfpack is ill-equipped to attempt a 4-game run to the ACC championship, and would probably end up worn out with a good ACCT performance, but poorly seeded in the Dance if they didn’t get to play 3 or 4 games in the ACCT.

    GT did us a favor today by knocking off UVA, who looked like the Pack during that late Yellowjackets 15-1 run. UNC, Maryland, UVA, State and maybe FSU appear to be the teams who will battle for the 3rd and 4th spots in the final standings. Expansion hurts us again in that we will not be able to play UVA and Maryland again this season.

    If just making the NCAA field was the big goal, then our order of finish in the ACC wouldn’t be a big deal, but now that the goal is much higher, a Thursday ACCT appearance will, in my opinion, probably diminish this team’s ability to go deep in the NCAAT.

    Without any doubt, however, continued poor defense will get us if fatigue doesn’t.

  2. mak4dpak 02/03/2013 at 8:07 PM #

    We need to win out at home and on the road, and finding myself hoping the holes beat miami. I have developed a great dislike for them. They are a bunch of hoodlums, and taunting the fans after they won the game, only reinforces that.

  3. DrWuffette1day 02/03/2013 at 9:20 PM #

    Khan, I hear what you’re saying and you’re right. I think it blends in nicely with ACC refs game. HOWEVER……it’s not ok. We’ve lost 2 games that are basically reruns. UNC-Cheat has been getting a lot of help with their games.

    Adventuroo, I did read your posts and was really impressed with the standard deviation analysis. Many thanks for your work and for your posts. However….(again)….basketball is a game of flow. Usually it takes guys a few mins to get into it. Then it’ll go back and forth on “runs” and then it’s a battle at the end (where fouls should be called on teams that play against State).

    People are way too focused on the number of fouls each team has. Although that is important in points and turnovers, it’s also important to remember the momentum of the game and the players who get the fouls (and when).

    Last year, it seemed to be a “tendency” of ACC refs to call Howell at about the 18 min mark and then he would play soft until he got called for another foul at about the 12 min mark. That elminated him from the game for atleast 6-8 mins. It also made him “cold.”

    In UNC-CHeat’s OT which I did not watch but went to the play-by-play Miami (who already had starters fouled out on the bench) had 5 fouls called while UNC-CHeat had 1. No calls the last 30 seconds didn’t matter probably- game was over.

    Also if you have a deep bench, you’re not going to be bothered by guys fouling out. WE ARE. This favors ANYBODY who plays against us. If Howell, Leslie or Brown foul out, he is not replaceable.

    The way the ACC refs are promoting themselves is by calling the game “evenly.” However evenly is not “fairly” and usually involves “make-up” calls in order to get the number even between the 12-5 min mark, which is complete BS.

    Usually the ACC coach is quick to pick up on this and throws a tantrum when a cheap call is made. This puts the ref in a position to have to throw a T or listen to some coach fuss and probably threats. The quicker the coach is to react the better position the team will be in. I was watching a masterpiece of this with Ol Roy in the 2nd half.

    That VT coach is going to have to get with the game or his team is perpetually going to be at the losing end. I’m impressed with Coach Gott and he’s quicker to stand up than what he used to be. He’s got good instincts and he tries. I do want to see him pick up a “meaningful” tech though.

    ACC refs have affected more games than I care to even talk about. It’s beyond frustrating and yes, it’s been this way for a long time – thanks to Cloughtery and Swofford.

    It’s sad that there are actually 2 games being played on the court instead of one. That’s what made preseason so enjoyable. With Swofford’s ACC, you’re on guard for the BS.

    Again, thanks for all your work on the stats. It does matter. Just looking at it from a different philsophical standpoint….take care.

  4. DrWuffette1day 02/03/2013 at 9:30 PM #

    You know…sorry for the long posts but just one more thought. At the Duke game, it was interesting to see the left side of the student section and the baseline State-side affect the game. The baseline crowd were leaders! They were “awwing” fouls and yelling out fouls as they happened. We got a number of “late” whistles as a result of the obvious. I think this is one of the reasons Jefferson was so frustrated. Fans were united in calling him out forcing the refs to make calls. It seemed almost organized though it wasn’t.

    This did not happen as much at the UNC-CHeat game. I noticed it a little at the Miami but it wasn’t as loud like Duke.

  5. willalwaysbelieve 02/03/2013 at 9:33 PM #

    Wow, that is an obvious push that should have been called by the baseline ref. HOWEVER, I also have to say that the refs generally don’t want to decide the game, especially in the last few seconds. We lost the game because we had two stupid turnovers and a stupid foul in the last couple of minutes. We will learn from it and get better.

    Blaming refs only makes WPN look petty. Seriously, there is no conspiracy against us.

  6. GAWolf 02/03/2013 at 9:55 PM #

    If the rules of the game do not apply for the last two minutes, we should just start playing 7 or 8 guys with the order to go out and break bones.

    And even if the foul shouldn’t be called, maybe they could have at least blown a whistle on Johnson unrolling his sleeping bag and making s’mores in the lane.

  7. Alpha Wolf 02/03/2013 at 11:17 PM #

    1) I agree, I think that the refereeing was one-sided down the stretch. But does anyone expect anything different from Jamie Luck…or Karl Hess…or Ted “I’m The Show” Valentine? It’s so bad with those three that sometimes I find myself asking myself “is the ACC truly a legit competition or is this thing rigged?” Then I shake my head, because I am not a conspiracy theory type. I believe that stupidity or incompetence can explain 99% of all conspiracies.

    2) I really wish that people who record videos with their cellphones would realize that their computer screen is horizontal format, their television is horizontal format and they should hold their effing phone horizontal too to get the best picture. Common. Sense.

  8. fullmoon1 02/04/2013 at 12:07 AM #

    Refs decide the outcome by swallowing their whistle at key points just as effectively as blowing the whistle. Rules are rules and should be enforced consistently.

  9. xphoenix87 02/04/2013 at 1:34 AM #

    cncstatefan has it right. It’s not a matter of it being end-of-game, you’re not going to get a call in that position 90% of the time regardless of game/clock situation. Rich did not have position, he was directly underneath the basket. Johnson made a light push, but Howell was not in good rebounding position. You’re never going to get that call. They didn’t call it and they shouldn’t have, that kind of contact happens in the post all the time and mostly goes uncalled. Johnson had position and he made the play.

    By the way, Rich got away with a far more obvious over-the-back foul at the end of the Wake Forest game, we just didn’t capitalize on it. And if we want to talk about bad calls in this game, the flagrant foul on Johnson was BY FAR the most egregious call of the game.

    Also, there’s no 3 second violation here. You can see the moment Johnson enters the lane at 5 seconds (shortly before the 6 second mark), and you can clearly see Larkin release the ball right after it changes from the 7 second mark to the 8 second mark.

    The refs made plenty of bad calls this game (on both sides), but this wasn’t one of them. I’m ashamed of the caliber of ACC officiating on the whole, but this isn’t an example of that. We played a really good game against a really good team and came out just short, accept it and move on.

  10. Tuffy2 02/04/2013 at 5:43 AM #

    Please with the refs being against us. Maybe one day we will get beyond this topic. Do they make bad calls? Yes they do! I am screaming at them from my couch at home just like the rest of you. But we lose because of us and only us. Sometimes over the last 20 years we play better teams and lose because of them.

    Mindsets matters. Some question our teams basketball IQ. I am not one of those people. I question if they challenge themselves when they step out on the court not the other team. If they do that they would have a hard time losing a game.

    Does this team bring out the best in each other. This is a more important factor than one would think it might be,

    I know there are a few players on this team that give 110% when it comes to stopping an opponent’s dribble, jumping into the passing lanes to intercept passes, contest every shot and battling hard for loose balls and rebounds. Those few also have the awareness to help teammates out on the defensive end . Until the entire team decides to do this for 40 minutes it will not matter what the coach tells the post game press on how close we are to getting.

    Maybe these quotes below needs to be put up in the locker room and practice facility for all.

    “If you think small things don’t matter, think of the last game you lost by one point”.
    Author Unknown

    “Basketball is like war in that offensive weapons are developed first, and it always takes a while for the defense to catch up”.
    Red Auerbach

  11. Rick 02/04/2013 at 7:20 AM #

    The ACC officiating has become horrendous. IMO this is one of the big reasons for ACC basketball being so awful. Refs determine the outcome of a game way too often and that should not be the case.
    They have allowed the game to become way too physical. They need to clamp down on the UVA style of play. Stop that crap. No one and I mean no one wants to watch that type of basketball. It is boring and players get hurt playing it.
    And they might as well remove the illegal pick from the rule book. The pick is an abomination. Legs splayed wide while moving into the defender. Ridiculous.

  12. lax79 02/04/2013 at 7:48 AM #

    No disagreement on 2 hands in the back push, but the real problem is like the Maryland game NOBODY goes to put a body on the BIG GUY under the basket. They ALL watch the ball.

  13. TheCOWDOG 02/04/2013 at 7:54 AM #

    Gosh. So many questions for a jackass to answer.

    ” Why do State fans complain about ACC officiating?”

    Not all of us do, ALL the time. 24/7, like radio love songs, 24hr a day, love songs.

    ” Do you think Richard Howell would get away with this?”

    Absofreakinlutely. With a boxout coming late, a foot from the rim? Everyday, baby.

    You want a discerning fan to comment on foul dispersion? OK. How ’bout…they committed them. Some dumb ones at that.

    Complaining about refs, or even worse, conspiracy case building, is not State exclusive. It’s Illinois, it’s UCLA, It’s UNx, for cryin’ out loud. I get it. But, like that love song radio station, it gets old.

    I’ll continue to save my particular bitchin’ for the short list of Vegas Showgirls, whom I despise quite deeply.

  14. redredred 02/04/2013 at 8:19 AM #

    ^What Cowdog said. It can’t always be someone else’s fault.

  15. wufpup76 02/04/2013 at 9:28 AM #

    On this particular play, I don’t have a problem with a no call.

    I thought Richard was too far under the basket. He hustled his a** off to come from the hedge to get in position to box out Reggie, but was not able to get good positioning as Reggie already had it.

    I think the game was called ok, IMO.

    The problem games to me in conference play as far as State is concerned were Wake Forest and Virginia. IMO, in those contests the refs literally dictated style of play, aggression, etc. Whereas State was not really allowed to play any defense against Wake in the second half, UVa was allowed to put on their tights and throw people around the wrestling ring.

    I think most conference games involving us this season have been fairly consistent throughout – which is a surprising step in the right direction (especially considering last season). I just wish there wasn’t so much left on the players to judge how each game will be called from crew to crew. The rules are the rules are the rules – but whatevs.

    Anyway, we’ve got to start winning some games :{

  16. LRM 02/04/2013 at 11:22 AM #

    I’ve never understood the argument — often made by announcers, even — that you just can’t make certain calls at the end of the game.

    The rules don’t change in the final seconds.

  17. Wulfpack 02/04/2013 at 12:23 PM #

    LRM, they say that because that is the way it is called. Doesn’t make it right but refs swallow it there.

  18. WolftownVA81 02/04/2013 at 12:25 PM #

    Beside all the obvious stuff we could have done to win this game, how about we use the back board once in a while instead of going for the ESPN play of week? How many of those have bounced out in the last few losses? In my mind, this very selfish act cost us the game more than anything else because it was entirely in our players control. They just made the wrong decision. I hate ACC officiating. But, until we do the little things right, I don’t see hanging all our losses on the men in stripes.

  19. TruthBKnown Returns 02/04/2013 at 1:33 PM #

    When a call is that obvious, you call it. I don’t care if it happens in the first 10 seconds of the game, or at the last second. He had to push off to make that tip-in. They had their shot before that and missed it. They should not have been allowed to knock our player, who had position, out of the way. Especially when it was the shot that won the game for them.

  20. wolfonthehill 02/04/2013 at 3:37 PM #

    Just watched this again. Rich did EVERYTHING right. he busted his ass to get position & box out… then just got shoved.

    Simply bullshit.

  21. Wulfpack 02/04/2013 at 4:16 PM #

    When your head is under the basket, it is a stretch to argue there was position.

  22. Pano Fasoulas 02/04/2013 at 5:15 PM #

    When your head is under the basket, you don’t have much chance of getting the rebound. But, he did have a shot at getting into a spot to challenge the shot/tip. But, because Johnson pushed him out of the way he had no chance of challenging. Sorry, but that was a foul!!

  23. TruthBKnown Returns 02/04/2013 at 5:40 PM #

    When Shrek shoved Howell in the back, he gained an advantage and took Howell completely out of the play. Howell could have possibly gotten enough hand on the ball to prevent the quick tip, enabling the clock to run out. But he was shoved in the back. An advantage was definitely gained by that contact, and therefore it was a foul that should have been called. That was a game-changing play.

  24. Texpack 02/04/2013 at 5:41 PM #

    Howell and Leslie got their asses handed to them in the second half. Miami went right at them to mount the comeback and they came up snake eyes on the defensive end. We were up 5 with 1:31 to play and gave the ball away twice. Was that a foul on the video, of course it was. I think I pointed out during the game a couple of contact plays that went our way as well. We played a solid game with out Lo and would have won if we had handled our business even with the officiating being what it was.

  25. Pano Fasoulas 02/04/2013 at 6:08 PM #

    If that shove had happened in the mid-court with no one else around would it not have been a foul? What difference does it make if Howell was “out of position” or not?

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