Tournament Factoids Part 3: A Generation-Long Rebuild

Some time ago I wrote a brief entry outlining a few factoids about NC State’s history in post-season, post-conference tournament play.  When you look at the rich history and tradition NC State has, it becomes quickly apparent that a quick-and-dirty review of NC State’s tournament past really doesn’t do NC State’s basketball program justice.  NC State is one of the most heralded programs in college basketball.  Its history deserves a bit more attention by it’s fan base.  For that reason, I want to expand on what I started a few days ago with a deeper, more detailed look into the program.  Rather than barrage the readers of SFN with a 10,000 word essay, we’ll take this in bits and pieces by first looking at the program chronologically, then picking apart a few overall observations.  Join us over the next few days until NC State’s Sweet Sixteen match-up against Kansas this Friday at 10:17PM.

If you didn’t see yesterday’s article on “The Early Years“, please take a moment to honor the accomplishments of those that are so often over-looked.  Make sure you also review NC State’s accomplishments during it’s “hay-day” from 1974 until 1989.

In 1989, Peter Golenbock published his book “Personal Fouls”.  In the words of one editor, “Among other allegations, Golenbock states that players’ grades were fixed by Coach Valvano, positive drug tests were kept secret, and players received money, cars, etc., from a special fund.”  These allegations were not only serious, they were dramatic to the point of being laughable.  Jimmy Valvano invited the NCAA to investigate the program and the NCAA found no major infractions at NC State.  Still, the Board of Governors and NC State’s administration feared the negative publicity and had Jimmy Valvano removed.  The result was devastating.  The following athletic directors prioritized programmatics over success on the court and NC State’s record reflected it.  NC State’s first coach during this period, Les Robinson, was handed an unbelievably difficult situation following in the shadow of Jimmy Valvano and leading a team that had been stripped of not only post-season play and scholarships, but also it’s dignity and pride.  After failing to produce winning results in a difficult situation, Herb Sendek accepted the position and lead NC State to several post-season appearances in the NIT, then the NCAA.  Once Sendek proved he had hit a plateau, he was ‘pressured’ to leave or ‘fired’ by the fan base depending on who you ask.

Sidney Lowe stepped in to solve a problem that had again been started by an inept administration (refering to the 2006 coaching search) and failed in similar fashion to Les Robinson.  It’s important to note that both of these ‘failed’ coaches were the result of administration incompetence on the level of the Board of Governors and/or NC State administrators who had little idea into what they were doing.  Les Robinson stepping into a crippled NC State was a losing prospect, and so was Sidney Lowe coming to NC State with no college coaching experience just to save his beloved Wolfpack from continued embarrassment at the hands of former Athletic Director Lee Fowler.

Conflicting Trends.  Since NC State’s first appearance in post-season play, the NIT has grown by 300% and the NCAA tournament by 800%.  As would be expected for a top-national team in this climate, NC State went from attending post-season play 40% of their seasons under Case to 80% of their seasons under Valvano.  During the 1991-2010 period, NC State would only reach post-season play 63%, an almost 20% drop from the pre-Robinson era.  This may point to way NC State fans were not happy with simply “making the tournament” under Sendek, among other factors.

Double Barrelled Tourneys.  Unlike the era prior where NC State found itself attending the NIT tournament 3 out of 12 post-season appearances, the Wolfpack would spend 50% of their post-seasons in the NIT.  Unlike the 1976 and 1978 NIT tournament teams which would have certainly made the NCAA tournament (only 44 teams were selected between BOTH tournaments), the NIT tournaments of the ‘late era’ equates being selected below more than 60 other Division 1 programs.  NC State appeared in both tournaments six times during this period (excluding the 2012 tournament).

Seed Germination.  As NC State appeared in the NCAA tournament from 1991 to present day, its seedings have grown worse and worse.  In 1991 after ‘non-scandal’ was over, NC State was able to reach the NCAA tournament with a 6 seed and a 20-11 overall record.  The next 7 appearances (including the 2012 tournament), NC State would be seeded 7th, 9th, 3rd, 10th, 10th, and 11th.  The only seed to improve on previous seasons, a 3rd seed in 2004, resulted in a first round victory against 14th seeded LA – Lafayette followed by a loss to 6th seeded Vanderbilt.  NC State has only been ‘seeded’ in the NIT tournament twice and both times it was a 6th seed out of an 8-team division.

No Rabbit In This Hat.  During the previous era, NC State had proven itself a surprising team.  during it’s 1983 run, it upset 4 of the 6 teams it faced.  Likewise,  in 3 of it’s 12 post-season appearances they were ‘upset’ by a lesser team to end their tourney run.  This made NC State exciting to watch and kept the belief alive that it was capable of anything.  Beginning in 1991, NC State would not long shock anyone.  The only time NC State managed to upset anyone in post-season play was in the later years of it’s NCAA tournament appearances and in it’s NIT appearances.  In 2006, NC State ‘upset’ #7 California as a #10 seed.  Both NIT appearances under Lowe had one ‘upset’ in the first round.  The only exceptional upset during this period was #10 NC State over #2 UConn in the 2005 NCAA tournament.  The only silver lining was that NC State also failed to surprise anyone in their departing from the tournament.  The only season NC State was upset to exit the tournament was in 2004 when #3 NC State lost to #6 Vanderbilt in the second round.

Living On Easy Street.  NC State made post-season play over 60% of the seasons it played (the NCAA tournament 50% of the time from 2000-present), but the way it got there was less than inspiring and proved the fallacy in tournament expansion.  During this 20 year period, NC State averaged just 60% in victorious against all opponents and an even worse 45% in the ACC.  This was sufficient for making the NIT and NCAA tournaments over 50% of the time during this period.  That is the equivalent of an 18-12 record overall and 7-9 record in the ACC.  That is a 15% decrease in performance from the previous era overall and a 25% decrease within the ACC.

Embarrassing Firsts.  Sidney Lowe was the first NC State coach to never reach the NCAA tournament.  In his first and fourth seasons, he reached the NIT tournament as a 6-seed, but his overwhelmingly poor conference records (6-11 at his peak) and poor performance against week RPI teams wasn’t sufficient to make the expanded 65-team field.  Les Robinson made the NCAA tournament only once during his tenure in 1991, shortly after taking over a program formerly coached by National Champion Jimmy Valvano.

I Know It’s Going To Be A Long, Long Time…  After reaching the NCAA tournament in 1991, it would be 11 years before NC State went dancing again.  During that period, the US would go through 3 Presidential terms, cell phones would go from something you strap to the console of your car to something you can fit in your back pocket, the US would go from focusing on Communists to focusing on Terrorists, and Michael Jackson would transform from a pop icon to a child molester;  all of these would occur without seeing NC State in the big dance once.

Second Rate Tournament; Second Rate Performance.  During NC State’s 6 NIT appearances, they would only win more than 2 games once.  That averages to 1.17 wins per tourney.  This represents a 15% drop in NIT performance from previous eras.  Also consider that during those eras, the NIT was composed of significantly higher talent then in the later period.

First Rate Tournament; Still Second Rate Performance.  During NC State’s 6 NCAA tournaments from 1991-2006, they would win an average of 1.7 games per appearance which is composed of 9 of 16 appearances where NC State won more than one game.  During the modern era, NC State has averaged only one lonely win per appearance which represents a 40% drop in NCAA tournament production.  Every season has composed of a single win except the 2003 seasons where #9 NC State fell to #8 California and 2005 when #10 NC State beat #7 Charlotte and #2 UConn.

A One-Season Glimmer Of Hope.  In 2012, NC State reaches the NCAA tournament for the first time in 5 years and for the first time ever under a first year coach.  The two wins over #6 San Diego and #3 Georgetown also represent the furthest NC State has been in the NCAA tournament since 2005 and if they beat #2 Kansas on Friday, it will be the furthest NC State has been since President Ronald Reagan was in office (and before I was born).

Entrance Criteria.  This year NC State enters the tournament with a 22-11 overall record which matches the record NC State needed in 2006 to make the big dance.  Its ACC record, however, is the best it has had since 2002 and 2003.  The season following those, NC State would enter the tournament a #3 seed and go 11-5 in the conference.  The last time NC State had a 22 win season and went into the Sweet Sixteen was 23 years ago when the 1989 #5 seeded NC State beat #12 USC and #4 Iowa to lose to #1 Georgetown.  1989 was also the last time NC State entered the NCAA tournament with a winning ACC record and followed it up with a run beyond the second round.

NC State is in a familiar situation in some regards and a very different situation in others.  In 2006, the #10 Wolfpack played a #7 seed and #2 seed to reach the Sweet Sixteen.  This season, the #11 Wolfpack played a #6 and #3 seed to reach the Sweet Sixteen.  The difference has everything to do with the administration and the support they have given to the program, including the introduction of first-year coach Mark Gottfried.

What NC State had in 2005 was athletic director Lee Fowler, a man more concerned with the budget and keeping the boosters happy then advancing the athletic program, and Chancellor Oblinger, a man who did not burden himself with the concerns of the students, fans, or much of anything else with the exception of staying politically connected.  Now, NC State is equipped with Chancellor Woodson who entered his position by publicly stating that athletics was a priority in rebuilding the image of North Carolina State University.  We also have athletic director Debbie Yow who has proven to be a fiery woman dedicated to not only the business of the program, but also the hearts and minds of the fans.  All of these moves were essential in getting to where we are today in this one sport within our athletic department, as was the interim chancellor, Dr. Jim Woodward who laid the ground-work, including informing Chancellor Woodson of NC State’s past, for making the changes need to be where we are today.  Moving forward, it would be foolish to expect a Sweet Sixteen every year, but it would likewise be foolish to expect our players, coaches, administration, and university to fight for anything short of perfection.

About NCStatePride

***ABOUT THE AUTHOR: NCStatePride has been writing for since 2010 and is a 2009 graduate of the College of Engineering.

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24 Responses to Tournament Factoids Part 3: A Generation-Long Rebuild

  1. TheOneManWolfpack 03/21/2012 at 10:31 AM #

    Awesome job NCStatePride….amazing article.

  2. PackInsider 03/21/2012 at 10:31 AM #

    Good article.

    Not to nitpick, but we did win 3 NIT games in the 2000 tourny. Made it to New York where we lost to Wake. WOOO-HOOO! 🙂

    NCSP: Not nitpicking at all; thanks for the catch. I had it in my spreadsheet, so the 1.17 average wins/tourney stat is still correct, but I think I just looked at the wrong row when I was writing the article. Thanks!

  3. newt 03/21/2012 at 11:28 AM #

    You forgot to mention the Chancellor’s Award for Excellence earned by Fowler from Obringer.

  4. Hawkeye Whitney 03/21/2012 at 12:32 PM #

    For those like me who tend toward the paranoid when it comes to NC State basketball, I worry about the next Golenbock. There are a bunch of UNC journalism grads who would love to take down the next successful Wolfpack coach. That is why I think our program has to be twice as careful as anyone else to avoid even the appearance of any impropriety.

  5. MP 03/21/2012 at 12:44 PM #

    The ESPN/Sagarin All-Time Rankings that you linked is a great source. I can’t believe we made Top 40 in the 2000’s.

    No surprise on sub Top 40 in the 1990’s. But to think – As a 9-team conference during that period, EVERY other ACC school was Top 40 in the 1990’s… Except us. That stat alone could be added to your entry, to demonstrate how much of a completely lost decade the 1990’s was.

    Would be interesting to see what the all-time rankings looked like pre-1990’s. Let’s hope for a successful 2010’s which would push us into the All-Time Top 20. Hopefully by a comfortable margin (looking at you, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, etc.).

  6. packof81 03/21/2012 at 12:51 PM #

    Amen Hawkeye.

    As for Golenbock, is there any doubt in anyone’s mind where he obtained all the information in his book? How would some writer up in New York know anything about what is happening at NC State?

    We endure 2 decades of penury over a book filled with lies and UNC skates after a huge, multiprong scandal.

    Thankfully, we finally have an administration that gets it and a coach who knows what he’s doing.

  7. Texpack 03/21/2012 at 1:17 PM #

    I would second the concerns about the next Golens***. The only thing that worries me in the least about Gott is that he studied under Jim Harrick. He kept his nose clean at Murray State and Alabama, so hopefully that is an indication that his personal character was strong enough to reject the Danny Ford/Jackie Sherrill part of the Harrick training. The key difference is that only 3 or 4 Auburn alums even knew that Alabama had a basketball team, the same can’t be said for UNC-CH.

  8. ncsu05mit10 03/21/2012 at 1:42 PM #

    Thank you Mary Easley.

  9. Hungwolf 03/21/2012 at 2:03 PM #

    Good stuff and well documented points! My observation was the UNC Board of Govs populated with a Chapel Hill majority killed our program due to V’s national popularity and his almost certain abilty to build the state’s best program. The book just gave them the excuse to do it.

    The bball program operated with uncalled for self imposed restrictions for years under the watchful eye of the UNC BOG. I don’t think our basketball program had any chance of great success until the BOG leadership turned over with the likes of people like Bill Friday retiring. They also handicapped our football program for years by suspending any chance of upgrading facilites for years.

    Look at the difference Robinson, Sendek, and Lowe as coaches were told to graduate players, run a clean program, wins were not important. Where else could a coach go five years of not making the NCAAT before losing his job at a school with NCSU’s history of success? Matt Daughtery lost his job at UNC after one! Robinson and Fowler were told the same as AD’s. Fowler never got any pressure from the UNC BOGs for having so many losing programs in athlectics.

    Look at difference in the hiring of Fedora at UNC-CHeat! No self imposed restrcitions above those by the NCAA. Never once have I heard he was hired for his record of success in cleanign up programs, graduating players, etc. Or that he is going to clean up the recruting practices and make sure their is no academic fraud. All I have heard is we gave him six years to give him a chance to build a “winning” program.

    As usual it starts at the top and that is the UNC BOGs!

  10. ADVENTUROO 03/21/2012 at 2:32 PM #

    Not to nitpick with trivia, but Jimmy V. also had some prized trophies when he cleaned out his office. One was the letter from the NCAA Lead Investigator who stated that he would be pround for his son to play for Jimmy V. The next was a letter from John Wooden congratulating him on the 1983 COACHING job. The final letter was from Rick Harzell apologizing for blowing the BLOCK call on Corchiani and FINALLY, the Distinguised Service Plaque presented by the Faculty Senate.

    All this before they started heating tar and plucking feathers.

    I still think we ought to bring out the “DREAM” room and just have it as an interactive display at the PNC. What a HOOT!.

    GREAT ARTICLE. GO PACK! On to St. Louis. The charter is now, from what I was told, FULL. It made the cutoff around 6:15 on Monday. Others are also booking flights out there.

    We were among the 500 or so fans in Columbus and the crowd was GREAT!

  11. Gene 03/21/2012 at 2:40 PM #

    “These allegations were not only serious, they were dramatic to the point of being laughable”

    I think the bigger issue was the miserable graduation rates.

    The 1980’s saw the cognizance of the lack of “student” in student-athletes in revenue sports. I think UGa had one of the bigger, if not biggest, scandal in this regard and that got things like Prop 48 passed, so some veneer of academic integrity could be stamped on big time college athletics.

    I believe Dexter Manly (Washington Redskins DE) testified before Congress about being functionally illiterate, despite going to college, because he was so gifted athletically, he was just passed from grade to grade.

    With Valvano also serving as AD, there really wasn’t anywhere else to assess accountability for the miserable graduation rates, which did give NCSU a bad reputation.

    The fact that Personal Fouls wasn’t laughed off the face of publishing, but got significant media attention as possibly being credible, was due to the fact most of NCSU’s players from this era weren’t coming close to graduating. If your players aren’t graduating, then what else could they be doing in between not going to classes?

    I really don’t know, if the self-imposed sanctions were necessary. Usually schools have self-imposed sanctions, in order to avoid more serious penalties that might be handed down by the NCAA.

    I think the fact the Administration took the stance that we were guilty as sin, rather than try to defend what was done right and say they’ll address what was done wrong, is the bigger issue about our 20+ years in basketball purgatory.

    I don’t know why, when the facts came out, that our Administration took such a self-destructive stance. Was getting a Phi Beta Kappa chapter that important? Or was something else driving it? Or a combination of things?

    The bottom line is the issue that really hurt NCSU athletics was the miserable graduation rates. Sure it didn’t violate the written rules, but it really wasn’t keeping in line with what the ideal of the student-athlete should be, in an era when most folks were getting clued into the exploitative nature of big-time “amateur” athletics at the high-school and college levels.

  12. Alpha Wolf 03/21/2012 at 2:43 PM #

    I honestly believe that had Coach Valvano not taken on the Athletic Director role that many of the things that happened wouldn’t have.

    We often focus on the NCAA investigation but many of us don’t know of or don’t remember the CBS story where our players were making jokes about skipping class and generally made it clear that they weren’t taking their education seriously. That went over like strippers teaching Sunday School with the UNC-GA and with the NCSU faculty. Had V not been so busy being the AD and also the head coach of a prominent hoops program …

  13. Hungwolf 03/21/2012 at 3:15 PM #

    The graduation Rates wasn’t the best but they were not the worst either. The so-called bad graduation rates of V’s players was overblown. The graduation rates for the minority players on V’s basketball teams was three times higher than the graduation rates for minorities of NCSU in general at the time. A fact that the BOG did not want to go public and would not release the minutes to their meetings with Jimmy V. Players transferred, players went pro early, and the graduation rates at NSCU as a university at the time were terrible in general. V got blasted for what was also a university problem.

  14. Gene 03/21/2012 at 3:50 PM #

    Hungwolf, I point out the issue, which I think really got the university to get into a period of self-flagellation over men’s basketball. The graduation rates were pretty abysmal and had been for many years prior to Valvano getting there.

    The violations of NCAA rules and the NCAA penalties really wouldn’t have crippled our basketball program like it did, if the university administration hadn’t jumped on board to get in a few licks of their own.

    Why did they do this?

    My best guess is graduation rates. Duke and UNC-CHeat were graduating all their players and running their programs “the right way”, while we had guys stealing stereos and claiming to be amphibians.

    Maryland was in just as bad or worse shape, with regards to bad publicity and NCAA violations, post-Lefty, but Gary Williams managed to turn things around in short order. I don’t think Williams’ success happened in a vacuum. I think the Maryland administration didn’t go down the same path of self-flagellation ours did.

    I really don’t know how things got to where they were 20+ years ago, but I think the bad publicity about graduation rates, along with the academic image of being a “Moo-U” probably pushed things over the edge.

  15. NCStatePride 03/21/2012 at 4:03 PM #

    GoldenChain use to always tell me that when your administration is weak, you have two competing factions within a university: the academic community and athletic community. Ideally, a strong administration would manage the desires of both communities, realizing the importance of academics as well as the public appeal of the university through high-profile athletics. In 1990, a weak administration went too far towards the academics side and ended up incidentally crippling our university’s biggest PR organization (the basketball team).

    Ironically, when you look at Carolina’s football scandal, it is the exact opposite affect where a weak administration sided with the athletic community, so academics was cast to the side of the discussion. The result, at least at the moment, is a damaged academic branding for UNC, especially within their athletic department.

  16. tractor57 03/21/2012 at 4:26 PM #

    The real rift between academia and the athletics world started long before Jimmy V. Remember the famous “jogger incident” of the Holtz era. That was my freshman year and not being in tune with the jealousies I didn’t recognize at the time what was happening.

    To a great extent the issue was created by a faculty member who wanted to start a fuss. Wasn’t long after that when Holtz left for the Jets.

    As Gene mentions there were issues in the V era. Not to the extend Golenback claimed but there were some issues. I told a friend at the time V was made AD that it was a big mistake. Often overlooked in the whole scene is the effect of chancellor Bruce Poulton on the issue. I suspect V could not change admission standards or grades (yes he could apply some pressure) but the chancellor? He make public remarks many times before it all fell he wanted a “top program”.

    Currently Woodson has said he want athletic success but without the academic failings. I’m trusting what he says. There will be a lot of attention but one thing I can say all the players on the men’s BB team speak well, no sign of off court issues. For that maybe we can thank Lowe as well as Yow and Gottfried.

  17. Texpack 03/21/2012 at 4:47 PM #

    One of V’s biggest mistakes was when he made a statement about where NCSU academics were PERCEIVED to rank among the ACC schools. He rightfully placed us behind Duke, Wake, UNC-CH, UVa, and GT. (The liberal arts schools often have an inflated reputation in my opinion.) His points about graduation rates were also spot on but not well received.

  18. Gene 03/21/2012 at 5:14 PM #

    “you have two competing factions within a university: the academic community and athletic community.”

    I think there’s a third prong there. The feeling I got from the academic community was a rift between the mission of NCSU as a Land Grant college (i.e. Moo-U) and what would serve them in their professional careers, with regards to research and publishing.

    In a nutshell, we can’t sell ourselves off as a “public Ivy”, like the University of Michigan can, for example, because we have programs, like a 2 year Ag degree, that just don’t translate into much of anything for most professors.

    I think being denied a Phi Beta Kappa chapter and the basketball team’s lack of graduating players being given as a reason sort of set off a chain of events that may have been building up, with regards to the professors professional careers versus where NCSU was as a university.

  19. Hungwolf 03/21/2012 at 5:48 PM #

    Graduation rates were not even the issue when the mess started. It was an afterthought issue the BOG used to punish NCSU cause point shaving, grade changing, recruitng violations, players being paid, and academic fraud was all found to be false. In other words if it had been NCSU instead of UNC with the football mess, the BOG would have fired Thorpe and everyone for false graduation rates by giving fake/unearned diplomas and they would be counting dismissed, transfered, kicked out, left early for NFL and everything else in graduation rates and saying UNC was not truely graduating its players. Graduation rates were barely an issue back then like they are today. Dean had players go early to NBA in the 80s that had not gotten their degrees yet. It would have been very easy to say he was running an NBA factory and not graduating balck players. Georgetown, UNLV, etc were the same.

    What happened was the N&O had an ax to grind with Poulton/NCSU and fueled the fire with fabricated stories, misinformation, and twisted facts. The UNC BOG had an ax to grind with V the AD for handing out guaranteed contracts like he did to keep Sheridan. V’s company also helped Coach K in getting his guaranteed contract with Duke. UNC BOG and many powerful UNC alum were scared of V becoming bigger than Dean. V was even on the tonight Show! The day UCLA came calling and NBA teams lets face it V was on his way to being bigger than Dean. The powers that be were looking to take him down. You take away the players that got drafted (he had lots), played pro ball, and transferred and his graduation rate was within NCSU perimaters for sure!

    Here’s the scary fact that the BOG covered up. During the same time they said V was not graduating his players. NCSU as a university was graduating 8% of its black students. V was tripling that average. How is that bad?

  20. lumbee wolfman 03/21/2012 at 8:12 PM #

    I am sick of hearing about poor NCSU graduation rates from Turd Heels and other ignoramuses. Chapel Hole had higher graduation rates, but as we learned from Butch-Gate, those numbers are meaningless. When a remedial “student-athlete” can pass higher level courses or graduate level courses (e.g. Swahili), they’re obviously graduating the uneducated!!! Such graduation rates are only meaningful to those with their head up their crack, the woefully ignorant, and Tar Holes afraid of the TRUTH!

  21. wufpup76 03/21/2012 at 10:43 PM #

    Thanks for these articles. Great job.

  22. Gene 03/22/2012 at 10:16 AM #

    “I am sick of hearing about poor NCSU graduation rates from Turd Heels and other ignoramuses.”

    My brother, sister-in-law and some very good friends from high school all went to UNC-CHeat for undergrad. They didn’t get “fake diploma’s” and not all of them got out with a super high GPA either. Some of them went onto successful careers in medicine, law and academia at other institutions, so they must’ve learned something in Chapel Hill or else they’d have all washed out in their advanced degrees.

    UNC’s a good academic institution. It’s not inherently superior to NCSU, despite having tougher admissions standards and higher overall rankings, but I think once you chip away at the superficial magazine rankings most people, who have first hand knowledge of both schools, realize this.

    NCSU has low graduation rates and seems to be proud of not providing whatever assistance students need to complete 4 years there. I really don’t know the reason for NCSU’s low graduation rates, but it shouldn’t be a badge of honor.

  23. lumbee wolfman 03/22/2012 at 2:33 PM #

    “NCSU … seems to be proud of not providing whatever assistance students need” – I think I see your true colors.

    I have friends that went to Chapel Hill – very smart and intelligent; very successful in their careers. I agree that having a low graduation rate should not be a badge of honor; neither is having a high graduation rate and bragging about it, when the reality includes graduating uneducated athletes. In other words, the numbers are misleading.

    It’s like the government reporting a 10% unemployment rate, when the reality is that the rate is 15% (i.e. Oh, BTW they don’t count the unemployed who have ran out of unemployment insurance).

    “Figures don’t lie; but liars do figures” – Unknown

  24. erichack 03/22/2012 at 5:07 PM #

    speaking from the perspective of somebody that has attended and graduated from NCSU…the reason for low grad rates is by design…as an engineering student, we are indoctrinated early to understand that only 33% of the incoming freshman class will graduate in 4 years…with good reason…as an engineer, when you graduate you are in the work force…you do not need additional education to become part of the professional work force, unlike lawyers and doctors for example…so when you get an NCSU engineering degree you have been put through the ringer big time…that will force any grad rate to be low…part of being a technical college is understanding that its tough to earn degrees…

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