Re-Thinking the ACC Pecking Order

As the conference season began, most folks (myself included) thought the hated blues comprised a tier all of their own at the top, with BC, GT, and maybe Wake on the bottom. The vast middle consisted of teams that looked NIT-ish, with the likelihood that a few would do better, and a few do worse than that.

Now, I think somewhat differently. There are five “reasonably good” teams. Those five are UNC, Duke, Florida State, Virginia, and NC State. The remaining seven are all mediocre-to-bad, and although some will likely play in the NIT…nobody seems particularly worthy of even that. You can quibble over sub-pecking orders at the bottom (for example, BC and Wake have horrid athleticism, while GT “boasts” an appalling level of skill), but I wouldn’t be surprised at any result among the “Little Seven.” As we’ve seen, matchups – and simple “getting hot at the right time” – can make all the difference.

However, my eschewing of more typical “tiers” does not mean that the “Reasonably Good Five” are equals. Not at all. But rather than a clear power ranking order, they all have different problems:

Consistent, But Low-Medium Ceilings

Hello, NC State and Virginia. Not surprisingly, these teams just played a very close, but not particularly aesthetic or well-played, one point game (though quite oddly, Virginia played better at NC State’s pace, and vice versa). They take care of business against the bottom seven more than you would expect for their overall talent level – because they are consistent (a testament to their respective coaches). Although these teams could easily make the NCAAT field…nobody would be terrified to see either in their bracket. It would be shocking to see the Pack or Hoos make it past the first weekend.

High Ceilings, Inconsistent

UNC and Florida State reside here. When they are on, they can look incredibly good. But they are their own worst enemy – when they suck, they REALLY suck. And it’s hard to predict whether you will see Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. UNC has the ability to win the national title, and Florida State could make the Elite Eight. But it wouldn’t surprise any astute observer to see them go down in flames much earlier than that.

Extremely Matchup Vulnerable

The subtier of Duke, and Duke alone. The Devils are a highly skilled bunch on offense, with multiple, diverse scoring threats. But they aren’t particularly tough. If you play lockdown defense, you will disrupt their offensive flow. They have no Plan B to work around that, nor are they defensively adept enough to grind out many wins against a decent caliber opponent. Watch the game film against Temple (ugly loss), Florida State (home loss), and UVA (nearly a home loss) and sense a pattern. Duke needs to get extremely lucky with their draw (or for fortuitous results elsewhere in their bracket) to make another Final Four, despite being fairly consistent with their play.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

11-12 Basketball ACC

42 Responses to Re-Thinking the ACC Pecking Order

  1. theTHRILL 01/29/2012 at 7:33 PM #

    I disagree with this statement regarding our team and UVA…

    “Although these teams could easily make the NCAAT field…”

    I would be extremely surprised to see us make the field at this point. There’s going to be nothing easy about it after the hole we’ve dug by losing at home to GT and UVA.

  2. VaWolf82 01/29/2012 at 8:14 PM #

    State has enough important games left that they could conceivably get an at-large bid. However, I don’t think this team is good enough to win those games.

    During some pre-season discussions among several authors, BJD and I were the most pessimistic and neither of us expected State to make the NCAAT. From my view, a very bad team lost their leading scorer, starting PG, backup PG and a new coach wouldn’t be enough to make the difference. Time will tell whether I was (and am) too pessimistic.

    My UVA co-workers are obviously thrilled with the way the season is working out as they are exceeding all expectations. Combine this with what looks like a good recruiting class in FB and they are feeling really good about what the future holds in C’ville.

  3. Wulfpack 01/29/2012 at 8:18 PM #

    Just looking at the standings today, I’d divide the conference into three tiers;

    Tier 1: FSU, UNC, Duke, UVA
    Tier 2: NCSU, Maryland, Miami, Clemson
    Tier 3: Wake, BC, GT, VT

    Tier 1 are virtual locks for the Big Dance. Tier 2 must find a way to play themselves into the discussion – right now they are all on the outside looking in, and there’s a long way to go.

    UNC will win the conference regular season title. I doubt they lose more than 3 in conference. Far and away the most talented team and starting to hit another gear. FSU will be up and down. I say the Noles finish second. Duke will finish third. This is a very pedestrian Duke team and won’t make it past the first weekend of the tourney. Four will be UVA, and as long as they keep defending the way they do and controlling tempo, they will be a very tough out. Scott is a difference maker and if Sene returns, they can compete with anyone. We’ll finish 5th and likely be left out of the mix, unless we can register a few wins over Duke, UNC, and/or FSU. We’ll also need a solid ACC tourney showing.

    I like the direction we are headed, but we aren’t there yet. Still an incomplete team. Gott will get us there.

  4. howlie 01/29/2012 at 8:19 PM #

    Those “appalling level of skillers” kicked our ass & made us whimper uncle.

  5. tuckerdorm1983 01/29/2012 at 8:24 PM #

    I would rather play 5 games in the NIT than the play in game to the big dance and lose.

  6. Wolfy__79 01/29/2012 at 8:25 PM #

    i’ve been on the outside looking in when it comes to the converstation of NC STATE making the ncaat. i’m more focused on what i see from game to game in what the team is accomplishing, so far i see us improving and still working in the general direction of a possible bubble mention.

    we need to continue to improve, and imho we’ve done that thus far. we met the wood shed’ type beat down the other nite versus a revived title contender… i didn’t know what to expect from the players. saturday nite they came out and played hard a let us/some of us that they aren’t hanging their heads. i was very glad to see that… of course, i think they still have to overcome the hangover of now two tough losses so i hope to see the same this week in play. we faced two of the tougher defensive teams we’ve played all year and our offense didn’t fully adjust… they haven’t seen that level yet, so i’m giving them a pass on that!

    and all that leads me to believe that i think uva/NC STATE have a little different ceiling. i think uva will play at this level all season and not really see that much improvement. i think we’ve got a little higher ceiling we can achieve than the wahoos.

    unc is in route to thumping gt, they are defenitely the title contender. but fsu, is so up and down i don’t see their ability to reach the elite eight.. i’m used to seeing their teams rely on their defense but at times this year i’ve seen bad performances defensively that pretty much ends the discussion of going very far in the tourney. duke is noticeably weak to me and has always had trouble with physical teams, it often suprises me how well they play against unc? ? ! but, when they face that tough big east type team, they struggle.. i don’t get it?

  7. Wolfy__79 01/29/2012 at 8:30 PM #

    ^i’m on the fence whether i’d rather see in the big dance for a weekend/play in game or ride out our post season in the nit?? part of me sees us being a major contender in the nit but i also like our chances of getting some ncaat tourney experience this year. i think i’m leaning toward the ncaat bid for recruiting purposes… it seems like a good 2013 recruiting tool! i hope we can keep having these discusions about post season options!!

    ^yes, against our tougher opponents i’ve noticed there are some missing links/components to our offense. if we had a little more slashing or scoring off the dribble threats to go with our bigs we’d have “another gear!”

  8. Howler 01/29/2012 at 9:00 PM #

    I respectfully disagree about the NCAA vs. the NIT. The NCAA means a lot as far as progression of the program, recruiting, and national publicity. The NIT is an absolute, bland, unexciting afterthought. Nobody much cares about it, not all the games are televised, and it’s hard to even find a bracket to print out.

    It is the difference between a one night stand with a really sexy, young woman and five dates with an ugly girl who you met at K&W cafeteria.

  9. Pack Mentality 01/29/2012 at 9:07 PM #

    It is far better to lose the NCAA play in game than to win the whole NIT tournament. That is a POS tournament for losers who can’t make the real tournament that counts. If I hear someone talk up how their team played in the NIT I usually want to laugh in their face.

  10. 61Packer 01/29/2012 at 9:17 PM #

    Agree completely with Wulfpacker that the ACC is, at least right now, a 3-tier league. The first tier is UNC, Duke, UVA and FSU, in that order. UNC is a good candidate for the Final Four, and don’t count Duke out either. UVA will go as far as Bennett and Scott can take them, maybe the Sweet 16. For those who think the Seminoles will win the ACC and go deep in March, I’ve got your seats reserved in the Missouri section, directly behind Frank Haith. How can a team lay eggs against both Harvard and Princeton (at home) yet beat UNC by 33?

    The second tier is Clemson, NCSU, Maryland and Miami, in that order. I believe one or two of these teams will make the NCAAs, with the others in the NIT. All of these teams have decent coaching, and all 4 are capable of beating anybody in the league. The good thing about us is that at least we’re not getting blown out in our losses, and there has been improvement.

    The third tier is VT, GT, BC and WF, in that order. VT is a broken record and GT is simply a mess. BC and WF are going to anchor the cellar. They look almost identical except that only one of them has a coach. If their fans are lucky, the Gobblers and Deacons will have new coaches next season.

    February is a month when two things around here can change quickly and drastically: the weather and ACC basketball fortunes. There may be another GT-like meltdown and another UVA-like disappointment ahead for the Pack before March, but with this coaching staff I don’t anticipate another UNC-like debacle or a Lowe-like finish.

  11. Wolfy__79 01/29/2012 at 10:03 PM #

    i was shocked when wake let gaudio go to see what they’ve settled for a coach. they are bad! a loss to them by is horrible. a loss to bc is just a smidge above that level of ugly.

    ^with our remaining schedule, the next three are against the lower tier. i expect three wins here, even with some of them being on the road. last week, someone on here mentioned we would shock unc at unc which obviously didn’t happen. while i’m nowhere near as bold, i think if we hold serve in our next three, beating a mediocre duke team at cameron isn’t out of reach.

    i think in the final part of the ACC regular season there will be a new tier added, unc will emerge as one all on their own heading into the ACC tourney. i don’t think they are unbeatable, but for a single matchup… they’ll be very tough to beat. i think they get a little ahead of themselves around that time and start thinking of the ncaat so i don’t consider them as a lock for the acc championship!

    i will say then the 2nd and 3rd tier teams comprised of the remaining current 1st and 2nd tier’d teams minus unc pending on matchups could see some early exits from the ACCT. i can see a uva team outlasting duke, and our beloved PACK finding a way to sunday! that would rely on matchups for all, but it’s not very clean cut for me right now!!

  12. Wolfy__79 01/29/2012 at 10:07 PM #

    …the 4th tier won’t have much to offer, unless one of the current 2nd tier’d teams fall in the ranks due to a couple of bad l’s!

    it’s going to be tight and it looks like we are staring miami and clemson in right in the eyes for valuable position heading in!! the terps don’t seem to be much of a threat at this point but they are right there too!

  13. Khan 01/29/2012 at 10:21 PM #

    I believe our odds of playing in the NCAA tournament this year are quite low. In order to do that, we’re going to have to win all the games we should and win some of the ones we shouldn’t from here on out. I think we’re a lot more likely to lose some games we should win than to win some of the games we should lose. Most teams decent teams that we play seem to execute well and shoot well.

    Here are the issues that must be fixed in order for the above to change and:

    1) Foul trouble. Howell (and others) must learn to stay on the floor and avoid stupid fouls, especially away from the ball. This is a combination of not playing smart (which can be corrected) and not moving your feet quickly enough on D in order to get into proper positioning (quickness and athleticism).

    2) Hitting free throws at crucial times. This is sporadic. This needs to improve and become more consistent.

    3) Outside shooting. We miss a lot of open outside shots. The only reasons for this are either a) lack of talent or b) lack of confidence and focus. Wood is the only consistent shooter, and he can’t get open against good defensive teams. This has to change AND others have to hit shots consistently. So far, I see no evidence of this improving at all.

    4) Finishing around the basket. We miss more layups than other teams get. This is inexcusable. We must improve substantially in this area.

    5) Talent level. I’m on the fence about this one in that we do not have the talent to compete with top tier teams, unless they either beat themselves or we have the night of our lives. But we do have the talent to be a low-end NCAA tourney team, if the above things change. Teams like UNC and Duke don’t have to play to their maximum abilities in order to make it to the Dance. We are going to have to start and start now…playing to our maximum ability. Next year’s infusion of talent should help us in all of the above areas, and I expect us to make the tournament.

    Those are the main issues, as I see them. We’re much better than last year, and that is good. We’ve improved in some areas over the course of the season, and that is good. But we still haven’t figured out how to win the games we will need to win in order to move to the next level. Hopefully, that will change in the near future.

  14. Dogbreath 01/29/2012 at 10:26 PM #

    We’re not beating anyone, Wake included, until A) Scott Wood learns to sprint and rub off a screen, and B) Rich Howell learns how not to reach.

  15. Wolfy__79 01/29/2012 at 10:39 PM #

    when howell learns not reach, this will help our ft’s towards the end of the game. leslie, his ft% won’t drastically improve this year. i’ve been quite suprised at what it’s been so far but he’s got a lot of improving to do on his shooting. our bigs are gassed towards the end of the game which is killing these valuable ft’s.

    i would put cjw and wood in the same boat as the most reliable shooters, brown would be the next inside 3pt range.

    we should handle wake^ no problem. at bc and at gt are different challenges in themself but we should beat these teams.

    it suprises me that richard howell continues to go up as soft as he does around the rim. he’s got to start dunking the ball instead of theses leaning lay ups he has. he’s a stud though, our team plays so much better with him on the floor, if he learns to stay out of foul trouble, that makes us a much better team.

  16. bill.onthebeach 01/29/2012 at 11:12 PM #

    For the engineers…

    the internal equation:
    native talent/ability + conditioning + bb IQ + plus coaching == X

    the external equation:

    injuries + luck + attitude/heart/leadership = Y

    realized potential == X + Y and may be greater than or less than goals/objectives/expectations.

    Any way you cut that… we are showing a positive trend.

  17. stillapackfan 01/29/2012 at 11:13 PM #

    How can you call UNC just “reasonably good” and put the Pack in the same category? Were you watching the game? Sorry but we’re not in their league…not even close.

  18. BJD95 01/30/2012 at 7:20 AM #

    Note that I said not all the “reasonably good” teams were equally good. I’ve also said that we would be lucky to beat the Holes 1 time out of 20 (matchup problems and UNC will be motivated against us). Just a different way of looking at things, as each of the five has a fatal flaw.

    State’s remaining schedule and RPI is such that one win over Duke or FSU, plus a Friday ACCT win would probably get the Pack in. It’s not likely, but wouldn’t take a miracle. As Jeff has stated, the competition for bids is pretty lackluster this year. Likewise, UVA’s RPI and “good win” resume entries are such that they shouldn’t feel super comfortable. Their odds are better than State’s, but not drastically so. They are really very similar teams (in terms of consistency and quality of play, not style).

    If I had to use traditional tiers, then I would put UNC, Duke and FSU in Tier I, State and UVA in Tier II, everyone else in Tier III (with the possibility of BC, GT, and Wake drifting into a Tier IV).

    And for the record, I think that being a “solid NIT” team is fairly close to our true ceiling (as VA notes). Of course, I would much rather make the NCAAT, but that’s only really possible because the quality of play (nationwide, but especially in the ACC) is so down. It’s hard to see the Pack as somehow a “high ceiling” team, given how many chances we’ve had against NCAAT-caliber opponents, without a single win to show for it.

    Before you let unrealistic feelings of disappointment set in…imagine what this team would do with Lowe whistling at them from the sideline. Yeah, I’m not gonna bitch about the NIT in our coach’s first season. Or his second.

  19. Wufpacker 01/30/2012 at 7:52 AM #

    Never even thought an NCAA Tourney bid was possible, or that one should be expected. I came into this season just looking for signs that we were now headed in the right direction. From all indications thus far, we are.

  20. Rick 01/30/2012 at 8:14 AM #

    “During some pre-season discussions among several authors, BJD and I were the most pessimistic and neither of us expected State to make the NCAAT.”

    I remember being right there with you guys. I have said all along our talent has huge gaps.

  21. Rochester 01/30/2012 at 9:07 AM #

    I suspect some of Howell’s problems (missing FT’s, missing layups instead of dunking, and fouling) are due to fatigue at times. The guy hustles harder than anyone on the team. He was an absolute beast on Saturday, clearly the hardest-working and most-effective player on the floor. If we had one more big to rotate in he’d likely be fresher and maybe convert some of those critical FT’s.

    I see us right now as the 5th best team in the conference, though I agree we have better talent than Virginia. We just don’t have the depth to capitalize on it. If anyone’s having an off night or gets in foul trouble we’re hamstrung. We’re giving 20 minutes a game to a guard who doesn’t really belong in the ACC. (Alex Johnson in ACC play: 7-for-26 shooting, 3-for-17 from 3, 18 asst., 12 TO.)

    I’m very excited to see what Gott can do with next year’s talent infusion. In the meantime, we’re still a lot better than we were last year. The margin of loss in our 12 ACC flops last year (inc. 1 ACCT game):

    BC – 9
    FSU – 13
    Duke – 14
    Clem – 10
    UNC – 20
    VT – 8
    Duke – 24
    MD – 7
    UNC – 12
    VA – 11
    FSU – 10
    MD – 8 (ACCT)

    In our average ACC game last year we lost by double digits. We’re clearly moving in the right direction, but there’s a ways to go.

  22. Tau837 01/30/2012 at 9:33 AM #

    Nothing has changed in the big picture IMO. Entering ACC play, I felt State needed either 11+ total ACC wins (including tournament) or 9-10 wins including one or more against UNC or Duke.

    It is still possible for State to reach 11 combined wins without having to beat UNC, Duke, or FSU. Is it likely? Perhaps not. But it sure is visible progress, and I’m good with that.

    For those of saying things like “until Howell learns not to reach”, “until we improve our outside shooting”, etc., that is wishful thinking. Our players are who they are at this point. They are not suddenly going to become a better shooting team or a better finishing team. The only thing that can change now for this season is scheme.

    And for those who constantly criticize Wood for not running more on offense, he’s doing what he’s coached to do. If Gott wants him running off screens constantly, he’d be calling for offensive sets that set multiple screens for him more often.

  23. BJD95 01/30/2012 at 9:41 AM #

    We are more athletic than UVA, but they are more skilled. It’s an extremely narrow overall difference in quality.

    In a normal year, both teams would be “solid NIT” caliber. But this is not a normal year in college basketball.

    Rick and VA are right to have accurately said that last year’s team was really bad, and that there were/are huge talent and skill gaps on the roster. As much as Alex Johnson frustrates at times…imagine where we would be without him, from a backcourt depth standpoint. Yikes.

  24. BJD95 01/30/2012 at 9:44 AM #

    I would also note that nothing has changed from my mid-late December observation that only Lorenzo Brown has an above-average basketball IQ. That’s a very hard obstacle to overcome, especially in the last few minutes of a close game.

    But at least the effort is there. That’s the most fixable facet, and we are at least close to maxing out on that front.

  25. Texpack 01/30/2012 at 10:16 AM #

    I think CJW has an above average basketball IQ. He knows how to find the right spots on the court and makes good decisions 90% of the time. Alex Johnson has a bi-polar IQ which is really frustrating.

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