O’Brien v. Lowe

Maybe it’s unfair, but I have routinely compared Sidney Lowe’s performance with Tom O’Brien’s performance, at least within my circle of Wolfpack faithful. The debate can often become colorful and I usually, and admittedly, find myself on the outside looking in on the popular response. Now that we’re more than a few years in to both coaches tenure, it’s time to ask the question. Who has the highest threshold for success between the two?

A little (painful) history:

Since 2007, Tom O’Brien has posted an overall record of 16 and 21 (.432) with records of 5 – 7, 6 – 7, and 5 – 7.

Since 2007, Sidney Lowe has posted an overall record of 71 and 62 (.533) with records of 20 – 16, 15 -16, 16 – 14, and 20 – 16.

Both coaches currently maintain abysmal ACC records at 9 – 15 (.375) and 20 – 44 (.313) respectively.

As Wolfpack fans, we all know how to “wait till next year” and now that “next year” is upon us, who has the highest threshold for success between the two coaches? I think most even-headed Wolfpack fans will freely admit that this question is a no contest, at least for this year. Sidney Lowe certainly has the highest demand for success as he has reached his 5th season that many are calling “do or die.” With the incoming recruits, a sub .500 ACC record will be simply inexcusable for most.

This year for Football looks dreadfully similar to each of the 3 prior seasons. Ho hum. Not much going on. We get a few playmakers back (RW and NI), but the defense looks anemic as does the runningback position.

Negating everything else, if you had to throw your confidence behind one OR the other, who would you take? Tom O’Brien certainly has a history of winning at programs that don’t see much of that, but recruiting seems to be lagging and the TOB coached NC State teams look drastically different from the TOB coached Boston College teams. Defense has been a problem from Day 1 and not much has changed in that area.

Sidney has no history of winning as a head coach and hasn’t established a blazing record here either. Last year saw marked improvements, especially down the stretch, and it’s hard to complain with the inroads that have been made with recruiting. The incoming 2010-2011 class may be the best recruiting class in NC State’s history. We certainly don’t want to count chickens before they hatch…

Personally, I take Lowe. I see improvement, albeit slow, and an ability to land key recruits. I’ve seen stagnation with O’Brien. But if Tom does know how to do one thing, it’s own the hell out of Carolina.

And admittedly, this is an unpopular response with my fellow Wolfpackers. I wanted to raise the question outside of my intimate circle and see if I truly am crazy.

Who would you take and why?

NCS Basketball NCS Football Sidney Lowe Tom O'Brien

56 Responses to O’Brien v. Lowe

  1. TheAliasTroll 08/09/2010 at 2:16 PM #

    Great conversation. I’ll say this much, I think a lot of you are seriously underestimating how much Nate Irving means to this defense. Add to that we have one of the best QB in the nation (YES, in the NATION) returning and I think you’ll see TOB surprise some folks this season.. as for losing Nate and Russell next year, we’ll see who steps up as potential young stars this season. Keep the faith! Go Pack!

  2. thekind 08/09/2010 at 2:32 PM #

    Sid is making progress. Let’s face it, we knew he needed a heck of learning curve when he we offered him the job. And I think that if nothing else, he haslearned that he needs great guards to compete. And for the first time since Corch, and Monroe, we finally have some great ones coming.

    Now TOB on the other hand, is riding out this retirementfor all it’s worth. His recruitng sucks, he shows no ability to relate to or motivate kids, and his players seem to be undisciplined on and off the field.
    I have never understood why State fans and the media constantly give him a hall pass when our players get in trouble off the field.

    TOB needs to go!

  3. islandbreeze 08/09/2010 at 2:37 PM #

    come on, the kind.

    I’m sure these kids enjoy O’brien’s “you guys suck” speeches every year. /sarc

  4. otisthetowndrunk 08/09/2010 at 3:01 PM #

    TOB is already checking out. He has one foot out the door. He will announce his retirement before the end of the year. – Maybe that is a bit extreme, but honestly I see him as having planed on coasting into retirement at State. The firing of his old boss and the hiring of Dr Yow, he looks to be accelerating his plan.

    I am not sure why. Does he have a buyout? Would getting fired just mean that he could retire early with the same cash? I don’t see his angle.

    Either he just got lucky at BC, or he is a better coach than we are seeing right now. If you are in the camp that he is a better coach than the result we are seeing now, which I am, you ask why. I don’t believe in luck or magic any thing like that. I feel like you make your own luck with your efforts. I come to the conclusion that he is not putting the effort into his job now than he was before at BC.

    I think things go badly for football this year, because of that, Sid gets a pass. I do think Sid will have to have good year for the ’11-12 season to be safe. Anything short of a final four or monumental break down will get Sid a pass to the next year. Sid is at an earlier point in his career.

    In the role of a manager this is how I see it. One man got a promotion to be our coach because we took a chance on someone we knew was “green”. Or the proven performer, who comes to work for you with a track record a “vet”. Some one who came looking for the job. I would have less patience with the vet than the green coach.

  5. Rick 08/09/2010 at 3:02 PM #

    Only at NCSU can we have a “which coach is worse” debate every year.

    toboaccordshow: Actually, Rick, the point of this post was “which coach is better.” I intentionally set out for folks to defend a coach as opposed to denigrate another. How it turns out, well, we’re state fans 😀

  6. bradleyb123 08/09/2010 at 3:05 PM #

    TheAliasTroll, I think we have the potential to be a surprise team. We could be much improved in our defensive secondary. Our running backs could end up being pretty great. There are just a lot of unknowns at this point. I’m not saying it can’t happen. But if we’re good, I think it will come as a surprise to a lot of people. Based on preseason projections, it’s not looking good for State, and in turn, TOB.

  7. Wulfpack 08/09/2010 at 3:18 PM #

    Lowe’s got the momentum. None whatsoever for TOB. Going to be another so-so ho-hum FB season. But one things is for sure. If Lowe screws it up with THIS team, then we will know that he just cannot coach. So I give the edge to Sid as it stands. But he’s got to go out and put together a good season — something he hasn’t come even close to doing.

  8. Plz2BStateFan 08/09/2010 at 3:24 PM #

    I have started to dislike comparisons of what TOB did at BC and what he has done here.

    To make that a real comparison, you would probably need to double the injuries he had at BC and then see if he would have won the same amount of games.

    Bottom line, TOB hasnt been able to field his team yet at NCSU. Maybe he will get that chance this year.

  9. travelwolf 08/09/2010 at 3:50 PM #

    I believe that both coaches have had legitimate excuses for their past performance. Now that they’ve had their programs for 4 or 5 years, it’s time to separate the wheat from the chaff. Who is wheat and who is chaff? I think that they are both ‘wheat’, but if things don’t improve in the next 2 years, one has to assume otherwise.

    I believe that TOB’s inability to recruit well is part of his problem. Not just this year, but the his whole tenure here. Perhaps he’s counting on having a good season and then signing up better recruits as a result – at least that’s my rationale.

  10. highstick 08/09/2010 at 4:07 PM #

    I was absolutely thrilled when he was hired, but other than being able to gloat over 3 wins against the Tarholes, I have been unimpressed and perplexed at what we’ve been able to put on the field.

    I’m not ready for a Fire TOB banner to go up though…yet! But thing’s need to pick up and I’m hoping Yow understands that. It takes time to get out of the “losing funk” and to develop a winning attitude in the entire program. We’re nowhere near that point yet, but maintaining this 5-7 status quo scenario is not acceptable.

  11. tjfoose1 08/09/2010 at 4:19 PM #

    tobaccordshow –

    I should have been more clear. Apologies to you and others for that.

    I have no problem with your post. Especially when considering your word choice of “Who has the highest threshold for success between the two?”, which I’m sure was chosen carefully and purposely.

    I sometimes feel I’m in the minority when recognizing specifically chosen words having specific meanings.

    But anyway, my comment was directed towards ONLY those who took it as an opportunity to start the unequivocal TOB bashing. That is why I chose the phrase “some of you”.

    I’m not defending him. As I’ve stated here and on the blog numerous times, it is simply too early to pass a full, fair, and final judgment.

    Sid is going into his 5th year. That is plenty of time to judge a basketball coach. TOB is going into his 4th. Considering where the program was when he arrived, his truncated 1st recruiting class, the defections, and the injuries, TOB should get at least 5 full seasons before the gavel falls. Not saying we shouldn’t take note or have concern, just not pass final judgment.

    Besides, comparing turning around a basketball program to that of a football program is like comparing turning 180 degrees in a ski-doo to doing the same in a battleship.

    Again, no problems with your post or wording, just where some took it.

    [Edit]

    Again, I am not defending TOB, Jimbo Fisher (who was bringing Bo Pelini as DC) was who I wanted. Fowler’s canceling of that interview will soon be proven to be one of his biggest mistakes.

    But regardless, the football program is on much firmer ground than where it was at the end of the 2006 season. There is no comparison. The foundations are set, depth has been developed. The hard work has been done (admittedly, that could all be negated by this year’s recruiting class and a similar one next year).

    With what we have now, we are one solid recruiting class (and DC) away from a top 25 program (which is only the next step, IMO, not our intended destination). If TOB is not the man to finish the job, then he should be appreciated for the heavy lifting he did in setting up the next guy, who I hope and pray, is a relatively young, dynamic, up-n-comer (a la Jimbo Fisher in 2007).

    FWIW, I have no problem with passing judgment after this season. I still think 5 years should be the cutoff before passing judgment, given our specific circumstances, but I understand the logic in doing so after this year (esp given the current state of the 2011 recruiting class). Regardless, if a 5th year is warranted, we should see marked improvement in year 4.

  12. jbwbubba 08/09/2010 at 5:42 PM #

    Well, Sidney has shown he can recruit, at least this year. He was a player till the end for big names the year before. However, I don’t think he has shown the ability to get it done on court yet. I question his actually coaching ability. I thought recruiting would be a bright spot for Sidney when he was hired; because Sid is such a likable person; I could see any player wanting to play for him.

    TOB I admit to huge disappointment in; we had a chance to make other choices and it appears after GT success and Duke’s apparent turnaround we made a the wrong choice. That doesn’t include what Jimbo might do at Florida St; and he wanted the Wolfpack job. Still, its hard to judge TOB harshly because of the incredible amount of injuries to key guys during his time in Raleigh. Still changes need to be made, on defense especially; perhaps the addition of Tenuta on defense is a start. But another weak year on defense and offensive line; will place TOB’s seat on the sun.

  13. ryebread 08/09/2010 at 7:07 PM #

    Given that DY was hired and that she seemingly runs a performance based organizations, recognizes we’ve been at the bottom of the conference, knows the importance of revenue generation from these sports to raise the overall budget picture and will want to make her mark, both are in make or break seasons. They’re both on the clock and I’m sure they know it.

    In a one season referendum, I think that SL is in better shape. College athletics are about 75% recruiting and about 25% coaching. I’ve felt like SL was a pretty good X’s and O’s and situational coach who has had pretty inferior talent (particularly at the most important position — guard). He’s got talent coming in, so I think it will put him over the hump. If he doesn’t win this year though, he’s not going to and is and probably should be gone. It’s put up or shut up, but I think he gets it done (at least well enough to get another season).

    As for TOB, I admittedly wasn’t thrilled about that hire, but that’s another story. The addition of Tenuta and the return of NI will hopefully improve the defense. I think TOB is a system guy, but I don’t think he’s great at X’s and O’s or situational coaching. To me, we’ve wasted the second best QB in our history, so I can’t say that TOB has been crippled due to lack of talent at the most important position. We don’t have a top 5 recruiting class coming in for that massive talent influx needed to really change things and I don’t see that changing. I think that TOB is on a short leash and I think he’s headed for retirement.

    I’m pulling for them both though. I hope they both go undefeated, win national championships and get contract extensions. Realistically, I think we’ll have SL next season and we may be looking at a new football coach.

  14. 61Packer 08/09/2010 at 7:40 PM #

    No offense ryebread, but without question the best two QBs we’ve ever had at State are Roman Gabriel and Philip Rivers. I do agree, though, that the multi-talented Russell Wilson was wasted last season. And that’s on the coaching staff.

    I see this choice of O’Brien v. Lowe like I saw the last general election- hold your nose and vote. The more-experienced O’Brien has been the better college coach overall but won’t win any personality contests. The more likeable but inexperienced Lowe has been simply awful as a college coach.

    Neither, though, is the villain here. That honor goes to Lee Fowler, who’s responsible for the mess that our top two revenue programs are in. It’s a travesty that this man will continue to collect big bucks from NCSU for over two more years.

  15. BamaPack 08/09/2010 at 8:05 PM #

    Coach Lowe may be inherently flawed when it comes to his ability to coach and lead a D-I basketball program, but at least he seems to be giving it 100%. I’m not sure the same can be said for TOB week in and week out. For the most part, he appears to be on the glidepath to retirement. His recruiting is a gnat’s ass from atrocious at this point. If not for his record against UNC his time here would be a complete and utter fail.

  16. VaWolf82 08/09/2010 at 8:39 PM #

    Well, Sidney has shown he can recruit, at least this year.

    I’m not convinced. He’s entering his fifth year and just now has a point guard with some hope of being ACC caliber. How long will it be before he gets another one?

  17. ryebread 08/09/2010 at 10:07 PM #

    61Packer: I tend to agree that PR and RG are probably the top 2. I tend to think of RG as being from a different era, but it’s hard to ignore a two time All American as one of our school’s best. I stand corrected.

    I guess I should say that since I started watching NC State football in 1982, RW is the 2nd best QB that we’ve had. I think he’s been wasted and it urks me to watch it happen.

  18. BamaPack 08/09/2010 at 10:14 PM #

    Asking a similar question, how long will it take TOB to field a defensive backfield that is at least on the level of the Sun Belt?

  19. 61Packer 08/09/2010 at 11:02 PM #

    Couldn’t agree more, ryebread. What might have been…………

  20. NOT A FAN OF BLUE 08/10/2010 at 12:38 AM #

    Thanks, bradleyb123 … http://bleacherreport.com/articles/430735-the-15-worst-college-football-recruiting-classes-in-the-bcs-conferences#page/16 … that’s just wonderful news! Thanks so much for sharing … :/

    I like TOB. I really do.

    He would be the perfect neighbor. You know, the just retired, meticulous lawn, pretty flowers around the mailbox and a hummingbird feeder kind of guy.

    Problem is we don’t need a new neighbor … we need a charismatic, fired-up, ass-kicking football coach.

    Unfortunately, our sweet little no-pressure coaching deal at STATE not only buys TOB a few more coaching years, hooks up his staff and permits him to hit cruise-control during recruiting season, but it pays him well enough to hang (and retire) with decent, gated community folks. The perfect ending to a career that – for all intents and purposes – ended at BC.

    For TOB, STATE is the ultimate win-win scenario … if this works out – wow, great; if not, “fire up the Winnebago honey, it’s time to see America.”

    Umm … Deb, we are going nowhere faster than ever.

  21. Bubba 08/10/2010 at 8:42 AM #

    TOB is by far the better coach. History doesn’t lie.

    He may not be the winner at State that we hoped, but he is hands down the better coach.Hate to say it, but Chuck left the program in pretty bad shape at key positions.

    And don’t get me started on the work ethic of both. Night and day difference.

    Having said that, I think Sid will have better results in Raleigh.

  22. LKNpackfan 08/10/2010 at 9:09 AM #

    I don’t see how pitting one coach against the other is a constructive conservation. Let’s simply highlight the fact that the on-field/court performances of both have been very underwhelming, and that it must change and soon.

  23. Sam92 08/10/2010 at 9:14 AM #

    this is a tough one for me since i gave my word i would keep my mouth shut about Lowe until the end of this next bball season.

    TOB has just been a disappointment. Last year (his third) should have been a step it up year where he really started to show what his system and his players could do for us, but it fell totally flat – the output was actually worse.

    as far as i’m concerned this year is make or break for TOB if he can’t show significant improvement, there will rightly be a loud cry to hasten his retirement

  24. packof81 08/10/2010 at 12:25 PM #

    I pick Lowe. There was a glimmer of hope last season down the stretch. He’s got some decent recruits coming in. There’s the potential for a decent season. But they must deliver the goods. Too many bad losses and Lowe will get the bum’s rush.

    TOB has been a non-starter. Last season was an unmitigated disaster. To be stomped by the Dookeys at home has to be a new low for NC State Football. Amato must have been ROFL. I mean, I thought BC was good but to hear some of you tell it, they were stomping on cream puffs. And somebody thought they’d make the ACC better. I say we flush that turd too.

  25. bradleyb123 08/11/2010 at 3:57 PM #

    jbwbubba said this about Sid:

    “Well, Sidney has shown he can recruit, at least this year. He was a player till the end for big names the year before. However, I don’t think he has shown the ability to get it done on court yet. I question his actual coaching ability.”

    Then went on to say this about TOB:

    “Still, its hard to judge TOB harshly because of the incredible amount of injuries to key guys during his time in Raleigh.”

    In a nutshell, both coaches have had the same problem: Either not having great players, or not having great players available to play.

    But you question Sid’s ability to coach, while giving TOB a pass.

    I’m not picking on you personally. Several people here think that way. And maybe they’re right. I’ve had my doubts about Sid at times, too. But maybe we should see what Sid can do with great players (like he has now) before we judge if he’s a bad coach or not. Maybe he’s like TOB — a capable coach that hasn’t had enough great players to succeed.

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