Wake Bakes Pack, 85-78

08-09 Basketball General82
NCSU (15-11) 35 43 78
#13 WF (22-5) 43 42 85

Quick Stats:

NC State Wake Forest
Field Goals 31-65 (47.7%) 32-61 (52.5%)
Free Throws 8-11 (72.7%) 18-22 (81.8%)
3-pointers 8-23 (34.8%) 3-13 (23.1%)
Personal Fouls 19 10
Turnovers 8 12

Box Score

Barring a miracle, say hello to the NIT — if State plays well in its final three ACC games and in the ACC Tournament. That much was settled tonight as Wake Forest put a fork in the outside chances of an NCAA At-Large bid for a game NC State team that fell short in Winston-Salem.

Your post-game comments here.

08-09 Basketball General

82 Responses to Wake Bakes Pack, 85-78

  1. BJD95 02/27/2009 at 9:53 AM #

    By getting decent PG play (which I blame mostly on Wake’s pathetic on-ball defense), we avoided one of our two typical fatal flaws. But the other one was very prominent – defense. Fells and McCauley are our only adequate defenders. This also portends poorly for next season, when a combination of Smith, Horner, and Howell will provide all of our interior defense. Johnny Thomas still has knee problems, and despite the energy with which he plays, he has been a lousy defender in the Smith mold. I also doubt that Brown or Wood will be plus defenders, especially as true freshmen.

    This is where Degand’s knee injury really screws us up. He should be our plus defender, like he was before he got hurt.

  2. zahadum 02/27/2009 at 9:53 AM #

    General observations: The recent thread on walking was certainly apropos. I counted 8 obvious travels by Wake that weren’t called before I gave up. I’m not sure Aminu is capable of touching the ball without walking.

    Fells may be the enigma, but the most baffling player on our team to me is Degand. He was pretty good overall last night, but it seems that when he gets in trouble about 90% of the time its for the same reason, his refusal to make the first pass. Its almost like he’s afraid to start the offense.

    Johnson was a beast, but sure would have been nice to see us make him go left just once. And I was surprised we didn’t go zone a little bit more, especially with Teague having an off night for him.

    Wake has the potential to be scary good next year. I mean how loaded with talent are you when Ty Walker gets no playing time?

  3. Wufpacker 02/27/2009 at 10:00 AM #

    It would have been really nice to have gotten the win against Wake, but lets not kid ourselves. Losing to Wake on the road is not the game that is going to keep us out of the NCAA Tournament. I can think of a handful of OTHER games that we should have won and didn’t that would have kept us from needing the win last night to feel good about a bid.

    AS someone said earlier in this thread, though, the NIT is pretty much the ceiling that could have/should have been expected for this team. And to be honest, we have the type of team that could do some damage in the NIT, but if we went into the NCAA’s as an 11 or 12 seed we would have likely been one and done anyway.

    Now, lets take care of Maryland and not let this turn into a season ending skid that keeps us out of the post-season altogether.

  4. robopack 02/27/2009 at 10:07 AM #

    How bout CJ ?

    I listened to the pre-game radio broadcast and loved the interview with CJ Williams. CJ’s interview showed him to be a high IQ, well grounded kid that im proud to have represent NCSU. He’s no doubt a coach’s player. He will truly be a asset to Sid & Co. over the next few years, just wait and see. He is exactly the kind of player you need to complement some fresh stud talent, and make us a great team soon!!

    Brains with no attitude…Go CJ!! GO Pack!

  5. Wolf Dog 02/27/2009 at 10:23 AM #

    I am not upset that we lost at Wake. We split with a top 12 team. That needs to be more of the norm for us and maybe some years win both. Then beat lower level teams. Problem this year is we lost games earlier in the year that put us in a hole. I really wish we had a shot at Duke on our home court. Our Big lineup could really give them some problems.

    I like Ben MaCauley but his limitations at center are greatly exposed when he goes against a top center. MaCauley got run over all night. Johnson was a beast and we had nothing for him. Costner player some passionate defense in the second half last night. I was happy to see that.

    We continue to get better as a team as the year progresses. ON a neutral court in the tournament we could make some noise. Like to see us win one for a change. Last ACC tournament I went to was Herb’s last year. Worst effort by a team in the ACC tournament I have ever seen. Whatever happened on that team carried over for years in my opinion. I think the funk from that team finally went away during this season.

  6. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 02/27/2009 at 10:28 AM #

    Can Javier speak? I’ve never seen a PG that isn’t talking to the other players throughout the game. I’ve never seen him say a word to anyone. Even when Lowe talks to him he just looks at him with the same blank expression that he maintains throughout the game. I guess it is good that he keeps his emotions in check but seems like he could at least yell out instructions from time to time.

  7. Par Shooter 02/27/2009 at 10:29 AM #

    It cracks me up how folks still view Fells as this great untapped talent this late into his sr year. Wasted potential…could be an NBA player…all that nonsense. It’s crap. Courtney is what he is and that is a guy who looks like he should be a good player based on his build but he simply isn’t. He is below average at ballhandling, passing and decision making and average, at best, at outside shooting and defense. He has shown absolutely no interest in or ability to penetrate or post up smaller guys. He’s basically just a spot-up 3-pt shooter with an average shot. When he was a frosh and maybe a soph you could say “if he just improves all of these things he’ll be good”. He’s not improving at this point. He is what he is and those folks waiting for him to be something more are never going to get it.

  8. phillypacker 02/27/2009 at 10:42 AM #

    PAJ,

    BJD has been on here for years playing an important role on this blog. Let him say what he wants. He says what he says out of care and concern and as a result of being a long-term committed fan. If you want a positive vibe. Watch Oprah.

  9. BJD95 02/27/2009 at 10:52 AM #

    I calls them as I sees them. I wasn’t displeased with our effort last night, but I most certainly DID see Wake make lots of stupid plays, play terrible on-ball defense, etc. And I told you my basis for our chances at Wall and Cousins – you can take it or leave it.

    Make reasoned arguments for your points. You don’t have to agree with what any of us say, but this is NOT a message board and we are not interested in users provoking personal flame wars.

    It’s too bad in a way. Wake is the team best suited to stop Carolina from winning another ACC title. But I doubt they will make it that far.

  10. Tiew 02/27/2009 at 11:10 AM #

    I really liked several things in this game. Going into it I was afraid the Deacons were going to come at us hard and beat the crap out of us in revenge. We didn’t let them do that. Holding it to 8 turnovers amazed me. I wasn’t expecting that much improvement, especially against a fast team like Wake. Also some of the long passes for an easy basket were very exciting to me.

    It’s frustrating to see the missed shots, and bad defensive moves, that kept us from winning. Realistically though, that’s why we’re ranked lower than Wake. You can’t just say, “Be more talented!” and make it happen. We came out, played our offense, and limited turnovers, which is what we needed to do. We kept ourselves in it. If Wake misses a few more and we make a few more we win.

    The only thing that bothered me was the rebounding. That seems like a frustrating step backwards. On the other hand, Wake’s post players seemed to just be having a crazy good game. Maybe this was a fluke.

  11. Rochester 02/27/2009 at 11:28 AM #

    Wake’s post players seemed to just be having a crazy good game.

    Our woeful interior defense had a lot to do with that.

  12. wufpup76 02/27/2009 at 11:35 AM #

    ^I would say if we met them again, we’d stand more than a reasonable chance of beating them. Live and learn. Make some adjustments and if the defense/rebounding improves even just a little bit and this is a team we can take down.

    Double the post quicker, force Johnson to pass the ball as opposed to penetrate with his strong hand … etc, etc … so on … so forth. One thing I wouldn’t change is letting Ish Smith take outside shots, particularly with the shot clock winding down. I know he really killed us in driving to the hole, but him making 2+ three pointers in a single game is an anomaly. The guy is not a shooter, he just made a couple of huge ones against us … tip your cap, I guess.

    I also wouldn’t change not turning the ball over. When we execute our halfcourt offense we can be really tough to stop – a 7 minute drought last night notwithstanding.

    ^^About the Holes, I know the brackets aren’t set and we don’t know who’s playing who, but I’ve got this funny feeling that they aren’t winning the ACC tournament title this year. It’s just a hunch, but I feel strongly about it. Strangely, I don’t feel two of the stronger teams in the conference would stop them though: Clemson and Duke. I’m not sure if Clemson will ever be mentally strong enough to beat the Holes, and I don’t think Duke has enough firepower / stamina to stick with them. (Yes, Duke is good defensively – in the halfcourt … not necessarily against the Holes in general.)

    I could totally see someone like Maryland, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, Boston College or Florida State knocking them off though. All of those teams are tough enough defensively to force the Holes into a halfcourt grind-it-out game, and Wake can run with the Holes. BC won in Chapel Hole, Wake has beaten them, Maryland has beaten them, Florida State blew a chance to beat them, and Greenberg almost always has the Hokies ready to go against them.

    I wouldn’t be totally shocked either if Miami or NC State got them, either. If either of those teams are playing their top games I think they give the Holes more than a run for their money. If NC State could defend and rebound just a bit better, they’d be right there … and if Miami plays well enough defensively they’ve got McClinton, who is usually the best player on the court.

    The Holes are not this unstoppable / unbeatable force they’re made out to be. And I will be shocked if that team wins the national title.

    Just my opinion.

  13. wufpup76 02/27/2009 at 11:46 AM #

    Couple of interesting entries about the Pack are up at ACC Now – especially this one:

    http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/defense-aside-pack-making-progress

  14. Shadow722 02/27/2009 at 11:59 AM #

    Last night was a “good effort” by the Pack. Great offense, no defense, but it has been that way all season long. We held down our turnovers, both PG’s looked like they belonged in the ACC, and Tracy was a “beast” on offense.

    I was not surpried we lost, because we were playing a top 25 team at home, and we are not a top 25 team. But we played close, and did not fold up our tent. So that is progress of sorts.

    I was most troubled by the play of our seniors, McCauley, Fells and Costner. Frosh and Soph players can make mistakes, and it hurts the team, but the mistakes that those three continue to make are aggravating. Costner picking up his dribble 1/3 of the way down the court, and then thowing the ball away, almost cost me my TV due to the impact of an adult beverage going thru it.

    Fells needs to phone home and get a clue, and Big Ben played an OK game but was not really a factor.

    This team really has two choices at this point:

    We can continue to give minutes to the Big Three, and hope they have a great game or two left, and finish the season 8-8, and make a run in the ACC tourney. And then hope we make the NIT.

    Or we can bench all three and play the kids? Can we be much worse starting Thomas, Williams, Horner? Mays, T Ferg, and Harris off the bench. How about Degand at the 2? We well may lose the next three with that lineup, but the experience they gain may prove worth it.

    I would rather see players with 50% talent giving 100% effort, than players with 100% talent giving 50% effort.

    Winning is not everything. I love watching a team play that gives 100%, even in a losing effort. I am tired of the big three just go through the motions. Let’s let the kids play and see how they do…

  15. Astral Rain 02/27/2009 at 12:02 PM #

    Yeah, one difference this year is that when a game comes up, I think they can win. Last year, I didn’t think they’d win another game after a certain point- and they didn’t.

    So there’s some optimism, but next year is crucial. I am spotting an improvement in the team- and Sid, so while I wanted Sid out after the VT game, the improvement shown since then has changed my mind.

  16. BJD95 02/27/2009 at 12:03 PM #

    ^^^^ You’re right about Clemson and Duke matching up poorly with UNC, which is too bad. Those teams will be the tourney favorites if someone else knocks off UNC.

    The formula for beating Carolina is simple – fast, athletic, scoring point guard or combo guard. They have no answer for that. The players they likely struggle with are Delaney, Vasquez, Rice, Teague, McClinton, and Douglas. Any of those 6 teams COULD beat UNC, but only Wake really has the supporting talent to hold onto a game if the Holes are paying attention. And it will be even harder to do it on Friday, playing on short rest.

  17. redfred2 02/27/2009 at 12:34 PM #

    “I agree next year does not make me feel any better. You will see how much Ben,Fells and Courtney are missed.”

    Yep, it’ll sure enough be a real adjustment watching us LOSE more games just like the one we LOST last night, without those three guys 0out there.

    So kyjelly, are you saying that in your mind YOU believe that those three guys, to greater and lesser degrees, are giving the efforts that they should be out on the court? I’m not talking about anything that has to do with coaching, just how those players as individuals, one especially, conduct themselves when the game is on the line?

  18. choppack1 02/27/2009 at 12:43 PM #

    I should sue JP Giglio for plagarism:

    Today he writes: “N.C. State’s not a bad team, not since the first seven ACC games anyway, it’s just a team with no margin of error.

    Right after the game, I wrote: “Right now, we just have no margin for error”

  19. packof81 02/27/2009 at 12:46 PM #

    I saw more missed free throws last night. That needs fixing.

  20. Gene 02/27/2009 at 1:34 PM #

    There’s a reason why Fells, Costner, and McCauley (for their myriad faults) play so many minutes this season.

    From “scouring” the internet we’re looking at some JUCO players, I think Roscoe Davis at Lauringburg is the best of the bunch, and a late bloomer, in Indiana, in case Cousins isn’t coming, to add depth to the frount court. Sid’s publically state he’s adding two more to the 2009 recruiting class.

    The players we have coming back are getting better and we aren’t stuck with the inability to overcome the same problems every game – rebounding is much improved, turnovers aren’t always killing us, etc. Since we are playing better basketball and the players we have coming back can step up and fill the roles of players we will be losing, I don’t see next year being a horror show, in terms of not being able to replace players.

  21. kyjelly 02/27/2009 at 1:51 PM #

    I do yes and you will see .

  22. redfred2 02/27/2009 at 5:30 PM #

    ky,of course the fact that we are losing three experienced players will hurt, just like it would hurt A-N-Y team, and ANYWHERE, USA.

    Fact is, we will be VERY young team next season, and there will be no need for you come on here and say “Nah nah, nah, told you so” because of that fact alone. We will struggle to find the leadership that has been lacking, and we will struggle to get our bearings once again, but none of that will be because we have lost anything that is even remotely close to being irreplaceable from the season before.

  23. redfred2 02/27/2009 at 7:04 PM #

    Everyone is so rung up on just “making” a tournament, ANY tournament.

    WHY????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Some are saying “make” a tournament, by this or that time, or else.

    The NIT is fine if we make it, but no biggie if we don’t either. I don’t care if we make the NIT this season, or somehow make our way into the NCAA next season. I don’t care if we don’t make it into any other tournament at all for that matter, UNTIL we are a FOR REAL and SERIOUS CONTENDER in it. What’s so great about just “making” anything, that is, unless there’s a woman involved of course?

    For years I’ve had the great privilege and have already experienced the overwhelming joy of “getting in” to a tournament, when it’s just for the sake of “getting in”. woo…whoo I don’t know my ticker can stand much more of that type of excitement.

    Making the tournament is just one step, but it is not the absolute and only way to judge a BB program, or it’s coach, or it’s players. It’s also not anything that should blind the fans to the fact when there is improvement occurring in their program.

  24. Wulfpack 02/27/2009 at 8:48 PM #

    Why? Because that is the standard by which 95% of the programs are judged by. The other 5%, the top flight programs (the UCLAs, UNCs, Dukes, UConns, Michigan States, Kentuckys, etc.) have expectations of winning the tournament.

    I remember reading a study a few years back showing the millions of dollars of free advertising generated by a school making the “Big Dance”. If nothing more, even if you flame out in the first round, you still competed at the highest level. You still generated substantial resources for your school, and you had your moment where everyone was paying attention to your game for at least 2 hours in late March. You were read in every newspaper across the U.S.

    Have you ever been impressed by the passion displayed in an NIT game? On the contrary, how many players and teams, many undermanned, have you seen play balls to the wall in the Big Dance? It happens every year — CBS even produces “One Shining Moment” during the Final Four saluting these efforts.

    If we aren’t interested in qualifying for the NCAA Tourney, we might as well delegate ourselves to Div II status or something of that sort. Try telling Jimmy V that making the tourney isn’t important.

    Making the tournament is the benchmark, and it ought to be for this NCSU team. I will near guarantee you we will hear talk from Sid that next year’s goal is to make the tournament. After all, you can’t win the thing if you don’t make it.

  25. redfred2 02/27/2009 at 11:06 PM #

    “Making the tournament is the benchmark”

    benchmark: a standard against which something can be measured or assessed

    I guess there’s something to be said for being one in a crowd of sixty five Wulf, but I’m thinking I, as well as any halfway knowledgeable college BB fan out there, can pretty much assess the team’s abilities during the regular season. They’re either fundamentally sound, or they aren’t. And if they aren’t, if they’re riding into any tournament basing their entire appearance on just one or two aspects of the game of BB, then they aren’t going to go very far before someone shuts them down.

    To me, it’s just not good enough to have the ability to beat anyone on a given night. It’s not until you’ve reached the place where the biggest majority of DI teams are dying to have that one “given night” in order to beat you, Only then, do you become anything worth talking about and what I consider legitimate tournament material. The rest is just lip service and smoke and mirrors.

    But again, that’s just one man’s opinion.

    Oh yeah, that second paragraph, did you have help writing that? That sounds like something that could have come directly out of “The Lee Fowler Handbook on the Art of Coaching at NC State University”. Chapter One entitled, “This is About All We Expect Out of You as a Coach”. subtitle: “Oh Yeah, Don’t Forget, We’re Not Supposed to Really Win Anything, but We Still Get Lots of Money from Just Being There, You Know, Kinda Like I Do as your AD at NC State”

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