Amid woes, comparing behaviors that feed NC State’s failures become more clear

Here’s an article that you just can’t ignore – Amid woes, U.Va. AD needs to act

Before we get going here… please allow me to remind you that the University of Virginia has one of the best overall Athletics programs in the entire country. It isn’t like they struggle as a department nor as a functional organization.

They have clear vision and road maps to help them achieve their goals. At the beginning of this decade the University of Virginia spent significant time and money producing a detailed strategic plan that included goals for performance and championships for their Athletics Department. Not only did they build a 57 page strategic plan, they had the gumption to post it to various University websites and share it with their stakeholders. (Link)

This organizational professionalism has helped lead the Cavaliers department to consistent top twenty finishes in the the annual Directors Cup competition.

As evidenced by the graphs below (built before athletics competition of this academic year), Virginia has clearly enjoyed a more successful overall Athletics program than NC State in recent years. The graphs compare ACC winning percentages and conference finishes of ACC institutions during Lee Fowler’s tenure as AD for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes. The stats do not include some sports where Virginia is traditionally strong but where State does not have a program (lacrosse, field hockey, rowing) or non-ACC sports.

Average ACC Ranking(for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes)
1. North Carolina – 3.38
2. Florida St – 3.74
3. Virginia – 4.91
4. Georgia Tech – 5.47
5. Clemson – 5.67
6. Duke – 5.75
7. NC State – 6.52
8. Wake Forest – 6.65
9. Virginia Tech – 6.85
10. Maryland – 7.57
11. Miami – 7.82
12. Boston College – 9.00

acc-avg-ranking.JPG

ACC Championships (for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes)
1. North Carolina – 36
2. Duke – 29
3. Florida St – 24
4. Virginia – 19
5. NC State – 14
6. Georgia Tech – 13
7. Clemson – 11
8. Virginia Tech – 9
9. Maryland – 8
10. Miami – 5
11. Wake Forest – 3
12. Boston College – 1

acc-titles.JPG

ACC Championship Sports (for the 21 ACC sports in which NC State competes)
1. North Carolina – 15
2. Duke – 10
3. Florida St – 9
4. Clemson – 7
t5. Georgia Tech – 6
t5. Maryland – 6
t5. Virginia – 6
8. Virginia Tech – 5
9. NC State – 4
t10. Miami – 3
t10. Wake Forest – 3
12. Boston College – 1

acc-title-sports.JPG

Honest to God…I don’t even know where to start. This conversation can go in a million directions.

(1) We could discuss the empathetic, fan-friendly perspective of an Athletics Director who publicly prioritizes winning and who doesn’t criticize his own fans.

“You have made significant investments in our program and I recognize that you expect results,” Littlepage told donors via e-mail. “As the Athletics Director I expect results as well. I realize that many fans are frustrated and I want to make sure you know that I am frustrated as well. … Improvements in football and men’s basketball are a priority.”

(2) We could discuss the rest of the world’s (accurately) negative perspective of NC State’s Athletics Department.

Among the ACC’s 12 schools, name one with deeper troubles in its money-making sports – Boston College, Clemson, Duke, Florida State, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Miami, North Carolina, Virginia Tech and Wake Forest clearly are superior.

The only remotely comparable straits are at North Carolina State, where Tom O’Brien’s football program is slowly progressing from the mess he inherited from Chuck Amato, while Sidney Lowe’s basketball program is declining.

But even the Wolfpack is ahead of the last-place Cavaliers this basketball season. Wednesday marked the fourth time since the New Year that Virginia has trailed by at least 20 points during the first half, the third at home.

Ahh yes. “Even the Wolfpack”

(3) We could discuss the obvious contrast to NC State’s leadership where Virginia is having this crisis-conversation amid their woes because The last academic year in which Virginia’s football and men’s basketball teams were sub-.500 was 1976-77.

ONE YEAR! ONE YEAR in the last 33 years where both revenue-generating sports were below .500. At friggin Virginia. How many years just under the leadership of NC State’s current administration has that been the case in Raleigh (despite our premiere new ‘fuhcilities’ (that have been finished before Virginia’s upgrades).

(4) Or…we could discuss how the Virginia media is actually writing stories calling for improvement to the current situation. Could you imagine? Could you imagine if anyone in our local media FINALLY ignored their personal relationships with Lee Fowler and their fear of the wrath of Annabelle Vaughn Myers? Could you imagine if anyone actually placed their journalistic integrity and responsibilities ahead of their the potential political fallout and the negative impact to ‘access’ within the NC State Athletics program and started judging the NC State athletics program in the media?

We can imagine. They may become as ‘popular’ in west Raleigh as SFN!

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95 Responses to Amid woes, comparing behaviors that feed NC State’s failures become more clear

  1. choppack1 02/06/2009 at 11:11 AM #

    For Lose/Lose seasons in football and basketball…

    I think there was 95 and 96 (to add to the 2007-2008 scholastic year). We could do that excercise.

    Since 1990, NC State has had 3 seasons where we had a losing season in basketball AND football.

    We could ask – which team has gone the longest between a Final 4/BCS game – NC State last did one or the other in 1983. I’m pretty sure everyone in the ACC has done better than that. UNC (multiple final 4s and 2 national championships), GaTech (championship game a couple of years ago), Wake Forest – BCS game in 2006-2007 season, FSU (BCS game recently) UVA – BCS bowl game (Sugar Bowl albeit w/ an asterik and 1984 Final Four), UMd – BCS bowl game and national championship in b’ball, Duke – well, 3 national championships…) Clemson – wait a second – I think we have a winner!!!!

  2. wolfbuff 02/06/2009 at 11:19 AM #

    I completely agree that NC State athletics (and some might say university-wide) is completely void of leadership and strategic vision. The above measures would seem to bear that out. HOWEVER, by those same measures, WFU sucks even worst than we do and many on this site (including me) sing the praises of their AD. So, it’s not only results, but perception that determine how success is measured. UVa looks pretty good across all 21 sports, but their lack of success in the high profile sports (men’s basketball and football) would have led me (and probably a lot of others) to believe they suck as bad as we do. On the other hand, WFU has enjoyed recent success in the high profile sports and so my perception of their athletics department is pretty high. Bottom line: there’s more than one way to measure success. NCSU athletics is in bad shape for sure – no matter how you measure it. But would we be happy if we had some basketball and football success but still ranked among the worst in the ACC in everything else?

  3. whitefang 02/06/2009 at 11:25 AM #

    I have a small amount of insight into UVa as my wife’s best friend is on and high up in the faculty. I have said this here before: She told us that at a meeting this fall with Casteen (UVa pres) he had to rush through that meeting because he had to go to another meeting “on why the football team can’t win.” She isn’t a sports fan so it was told in the context of “why the heck is that important?” And if you know anything of Casteen he is one of the most highly respected and visible public university heads in the country because of the consistent high ranking UVa gets (which they promote incessantly), and the amount of endowment money he raises. But the man is rushing to an important meeting about the football program?
    Somehow I don’t see Oblinger doing that. Forget Fowler he is a buffoon. We all know that. But just where is Oblinger leading NC State University? Are our academic and overall university rankings improving greatly even though athletics aren’t? Maybe so, but I am not hearing about it.
    Maybe I am being too harsh, but is the athletic program weakness just a symptom of a larger disease?

  4. wufpup76 02/06/2009 at 11:36 AM #

    “But would we be happy if we had some basketball and football success but still ranked among the worst in the ACC in everything else?”

    ^Just like you said about WFU, success in the major revenue sports (i.e., the ones on tv) would quickly change the perception of both the athletics dept. and university as a whole

    I think most folks would still demand improvement/success in the other sports, but basketball and football are the ones that drive everything. They are the collective faces of the university – at the very least when it comes to sports.

    To answer your question directly, I would be a lot happier but at the same time at least disappointed that we sucked in everything else and demanding to see some improvement. But I think you have a point, success in the big 2 sports leads to a lot of joy and a much more forgiving nature.

  5. SaccoV 02/06/2009 at 11:43 AM #

    Wolfbuff, the answer to your question is yes. The counterpoint is, outside of Cross Country, in what sport has this university been at or among the top in season after season. Wrestling won the title two years ago, but that was basically because we hosted the tournament that year. Baseball has been Sendek-esque over the last several years. We have had ONE winning season in football in the last six years (5-3 under Amato during Rivers junior season). As for Wake Forest, they have won the conference in football three years ago and have put three consecutive winning seasons in conference at a school that has about 1/7 the student population as State. They have been ranked #1 in basketball this season despite losing their coach to a heart attack two years ago and being among the bottom of the league last year. They have also won national titles in women’s field hockey, and been among the best in men’s and women’s soccer. Their baseball team has been fair, but has competed very highly in years past. Ron Wellman has almost single-handedly put Wake Forest sports on the national map with his hires and leadership, despite having the smallest enrollment in Division I. You tell me which university is more known throughout the country in sports at this moment. If you say NC State, you’re blind or lying.

  6. SaccoV 02/06/2009 at 11:46 AM #

    Also, Wolfbuff, your argument is a logical fallacy. If we stood out in conference and in the nation in football and basketball, our other sports would easily follow suit. Take UNC baseball for example, which was unheralded and unknown until Mike Fox turned it around. Look at UVa’s baseball team as well, which has gone from nowhere, nobody to a top-10, top-15 program despite having to squint to see the bright side of their football and men’s basketball programs.

  7. Gene 02/06/2009 at 11:51 AM #

    “Now, we are officially the LA Clippers: Horrid organization, cheap and ineffective leader, incompetent management, a culture of losing and whining about it. ”

    WRONG!!!

    The LA Clippers are run the way their owner wants it run: TO MAKE A PROFIT EVERY YEAR!!!

    Winning is secondary to the ownerships interest of making money, which is why payroll had traditionally been low and losing doesn’t matter.

    The Clippers, therefore, are not poorly run. They meet ownerships objectives.

  8. Wolf Dog 02/06/2009 at 11:54 AM #

    Kudos th the Cavaliers. Sad thing is I don’t see Erskine and the UNC Board ever allowing NCSU to do anything as prudent or proactive as what UVA did. Fox tried to do such things, but it put her at odds with the all powerful UNC system Board and its Chapel Hill and everyone else agenda. See were she ended up, out of here! I am sure our 58 page strategic plan would be met with a 116 page response from the UNC board outlining why it violated their policies although they voted to exempt Chapel Hill from all of them.

    It starts at the top and until the legislature mandates that the UNC system, Erskine, and its board operate in fair and equitable manner to all university schools things are going to stay the course.

  9. wufpup76 02/06/2009 at 12:17 PM #

    ^NC State makes it’s athletics money from TV contracts, league affiliation, AND off of fans/alumni … Having a large enrollment and active alumni base ensures that NC State can stay in the ACC and keep making money off of tv contracts. There is a direct correlation.

    Your argument is overly simple (it doesn’t have much to stand on), and besides – what’s your point? You really want to debate the Clippers instead of focusing on the incompetence at NC State? Really?

    Ok.

    The Clippers make money almost merely by being in existence. They do not have to rely solely on fan attendance or merchandising sales in order to generate a profit (Neither does NC State, really – but if the fans stop coming then the school is in danger of losing it’s ACC affiliation – see Temple football among others … That’s when you lose tv money)

    Even if winning is secondary, as you say, they still run a terrible franchise that will never come close to producing a consistent winner unless things change. There’s no debate here – there are plenty of facts and stories out there outlining how awful the Clippers are run (have been run) when it comes to trying to build a winner. Not to mention the fact of what an awful owner Sterling has been.

    By your very own logic you are saying that Lee Fowler meets ownership’s objectives (which he does in so far as money) and NC State is a successful organization. Winning is secondary to leadership’s objectives.

    LA Clippers are well run, therefore NC State is as well.

    What’s your point? We should be thankful that NC State is so successful at taking our money and turning out sh*t products?

    I’m sure leadership does think NC State athletics is hugely successful. They make tons of money and invest little into it.

    Are you on their side? We shouldn’t be complaining?

  10. wufpup76 02/06/2009 at 12:22 PM #

    I tend to agree Wolf Dog.

    I’m not sure ol’ Chapel Hill Erskine will ever sit back and just let someone like MAF rule the roost around Raleigh.

    I’m afraid we won’t see MAF or someone like her for a long time

  11. Alpha Wolf 02/06/2009 at 12:34 PM #

    This is what the LTR concept has done to Wolfpack athletics. There is zero incentive to try to win championships, and I don’t expect it to change any time soon.

    Truer words have never been spoken on this site.

    One thing, though, if the recession keeps getting worse I think that you may start seeing defaults on LTRs. Choosing between the mortgage, feeding the kids or keeping the cushy seats is a no-brainer.

    “Now, we are officially the LA Clippers: Horrid organization, cheap and ineffective leader, incompetent management, a culture of losing and whining about it. ”

    WRONG!!!

    The LA Clippers are run the way their owner wants it run: TO MAKE A PROFIT EVERY YEAR!!!

    And NC State gets is share of lucre for being the patsies of Duke and UNC. Wufpup76 covers it very well in the post above.

  12. BSIE80 02/06/2009 at 1:06 PM #

    Be careful what you wish for.

    A new AD may not be as warm to TOB as Lee is.
    He may want to bring in his own coaches across the board, except cross country of course….

  13. BSIE80 02/06/2009 at 1:20 PM #

    By the way, who are the Fowler replacement candidates?
    It must be a person with a track record so we can sleep well at nite.
    Therefore, we need to get someone who is in the top 10 of the Sears cup every year for the past 5 years (1 year is not a trend). And their footbal program and basketball program must be lets say in the top 20 for the past 3 years (2 years to rebuild, 3 years to show sustainability).

    Can someone run the stats on this and come up with some candidates?
    Oh, must be from Div. 1 school, with a terminal degree, and 15 years minimum experience, forgot to put in the minimum requirements.

  14. blackdom 02/06/2009 at 1:28 PM #

    While we talk about TV dollars and recruiting ,our mens basketball team aside from the holes game last week never make it on national network,let alone espn or espn 2 ,raycom does not really count those games are regional.
    This does not help recruiting nor will it change until our basketball team get’s it’s head above water!

  15. frankiepack 02/06/2009 at 1:42 PM #

    Hey we all know that the football and basketball programs drive the bus for all the schools in the acc.
    Given that I think we end up further down in the mix if we factor in the two big sports at least in the last decade or so .

  16. packplantpath 02/06/2009 at 1:48 PM #

    “Be careful what you wish for.

    A new AD may not be as warm to TOB as Lee is.
    He may want to bring in his own coaches across the board, except cross country of course….”

    The only way this is possible is if we hire the guy from BC to be AD. Any AD that would want to fire TOB is a moron. Lowe? Well, that could be open to discussion since he has no history of success and only got the job because he is an alum (if you disagree with this, you are kidding yourself).

    Frankly, I seriously doubt any new AD comes into a school and completely cleans house….That’s not the way to fix things unless everything is broken, and while we are close, we are not quite there yet.

  17. frankiepack 02/06/2009 at 1:52 PM #

    ^ Very true about TOB don’t see that happening ,Lowe on the other hand, I think a new AD would bring in his own guy ,unless a complete turn around occurs with the basketball program.

  18. Rochester 02/06/2009 at 2:01 PM #

    But would we be happy if we had some basketball and football success but still ranked among the worst in the ACC in everything else?

    If we were good at basketball and football I really wouldn’t care if we sucked at everything else. That might just be me, but there’s a reason those two sports are called “revenue sports.” It’s because people care enough to pay money to see and support them. I’m happy for the kids on the cross country team, and I’m glad when the baseball team does well, but there is really only one sport I go out of my way to watch, and that’s basketball.

    We’re in a basketball conference, and used to be a basketball school. I’d trade all the other sports for a conference title in hoops.

  19. PAJ 02/06/2009 at 2:10 PM #

    I didn’t know the answer to the losing season question and now we have it. 3 since 1990. So that’s 3 out of the last 18. A losing conference record and a losing season are not the same thing, by the way.

  20. Rochester 02/06/2009 at 2:13 PM #

    I don’t think the losing season should be the barometer in basketball when we get 10 “free” nonconference wins just about every season. Conference record is a much more legitimate measuring stick.

  21. wufpaxno1 02/06/2009 at 2:15 PM #

    Great Thread! I was surprised to see that State was fifth in ACC Championships, I did not realize it was that high, but even at that it puts the overall athletics department squarely in mediocrity. The problem here is not Lee Fowler as it is the administration that allows him to exist in a state of mediocrity. As long as they accept it then our athletics program will never rise above its current level. The administration has set the expectations and Lee Fowler is never going to exceed those expectations, why should he aspire to do so when he does not have to?

    On a lighter note, I love the graphs and all of the graphics SFN provides, but in our current state of depression we could use more images like the one that accompanies the National signing of intent day piece from earlier this week. Lee requests that you add some cougars in bikinis and he would not discredit us lunatics so much.

  22. LRM 02/06/2009 at 2:20 PM #

    Losing seasons and losing conference records are absolutely different. But the conference record is what matters when comparing yourself to other ACC teams. What’s so great about a 17-15 overall record if you’re 4-12 in the ACC? All those inflated 20-win seasons with NIT appearances under Herb were with sub-.500 conference records. That’s what matters.

  23. old13 02/06/2009 at 2:40 PM #

    I’ve lived over a thousand miles from Raleigh for the better part of 35 years and, therefore, have no “feel” for how many alumni, WPC members, and fans-on-the-street are seriously upset about what’s going on with Wolfpack athletics. All I know is what I read on forums, such as this one, and in various N.C. news outlets who have websites. Seems that I’ve been reading this kind of commentary here and on message boards for at least five years. And I’ve made my feelings of frustration and dissatisfaction known to the WPC, the Alumni Association and even the Chancellor. Does anybody have any idea if there is a significant number of Wolfpackers who are fed up? Does anybody know if the administration, BOT, WPC, Murphy, Bobby Purcell, etc. have been appraoched by any significant number of people to voice their frustrations and dissatisfaction and to demand changes? I would think that if there are significant numbers who would demand change, there would be massive petitions being signed and sent in, letter-writing campaigns in swing, withholding of contributions to the WPC, academic fund-raisers, etc. to deliver a message to the powers that be. But I’ve neither heard of nor read anything to that effect. Could it be that there are not a significant number of Wolfpackers who really care enough to pursue this? After five years of reading this kind of stuff from a relatively few (I think) Wolfpackers on the internet, and knowing of no actions being taken, I must conclude that most Wolfpackers don’t really care. Otherwise, why is something not being done? I’m to the point where I no longer find interest in following Wolfpack athletics, I’m tired of reading (and voicing) the same old complaints about Wolfpack athletics without seeing any change, and am almost of the mind to just start ignoring Wolfpack athletics and NCSU altogether. But I somehow keep hanging on hoping that someone will see the light and make some positive changes in what I’m observing. Thanks for letting me vent, but I’m TOTALLY FED UP!!

  24. choppack1 02/06/2009 at 2:43 PM #

    Actually BSIE – that’s a fair point. That’s the only thing I worry about if Fowler were to leave. I would hope that we would avoid an “egoist” – who has to have his guys in there.

    You do want your AD to be a guy who stays in the shadows. He should be a guy who can make sound hiring decisions and pro-actively deal w/ issues while not ruffling the feathers of the successful coaches.

    One thing – let’s not allow the strict definitions of a losing season to judge the success of our teams. However, I think we can agree on the following:
    *A losing record in basketball is pretty much inexcusable for ACC team. If you have a losing record in the ACC, your basketball team is a bad joke.
    *If you change the measure to conference record – it shows our true futility as an athletic department. You’ll see thatn since 1990, we’ve had 5 basketball seasons where we didn’t have a losing record. In football, we’ve done better, w/ losing conference records 8 losing records in 18 years, but (only 5 w/ winning records).

  25. 61Packer 02/06/2009 at 3:05 PM #

    Since 1990, we’ve had 5 basketball seasons where we didn’t have a losing (ACC) record……

    Whoooo doggie! Must be the fuh-cilities!!!!!!!!!!

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