FanBlogs on Notre Dame Position

'08 Football29

One of the more credible college sports blogs has a little rumor to share regarding some interesting developments related to the Notre Dame football coaching position. (Click here)

We just like sharing it as a follow-up to our initial entry and resulting follow-up.

About StateFans

'StateFansNation' is the shared profile used by any/all of the dozen or so authors that contribute to the blog. You may not always agree with us, but you will have little doubt about where we stand on most issues. Please follow us on Twitter and FaceBook

'08 Football

29 Responses to FanBlogs on Notre Dame Position

  1. Daily Update 12/18/2008 at 10:09 PM #

    Nothing more fun than following coaching searches on the internet.

  2. Dogbreath 12/18/2008 at 10:47 PM #

    Sounds like Notre Dame has a competent, proactive AD who was window browsing under extreme cover. Were it our bumbling weekend warrior coach Jed, he’d have daily pressers to proclaim all of the “big names” he had contacted, but who declined interest, thus damaging the NC State brand.

    Ole Jed.

  3. wolfonthehill 12/19/2008 at 6:40 AM #

    The difference here is that it sounds like Weis was kept only BECAUSE they couldn’t get their target “big name” to replace him.

    They were smart enough to not fire him unless they knew they could upgrade… unlike what, say, Auburn just did.

  4. whitefang 12/19/2008 at 7:01 AM #

    If this is true and I think there is a good possibility at least some of it is, it shows just how much the landscaoe of college football has changed over the last 20 years or so. The ND job has too much downside to it now to attract a coach who is both comfortable and worshipped at the fb powerhouse schools now. ND is no longer the ultimate step up from a Florida, OK, etc. Now from Cincinnati or Boise State. That might be a little harder to believe. But who would want to uproot their family to go into that “revolving coaching door every 4 or 5 years” that ND has become.

    What I do know is our admin and boosters need to make TOB a very comfortable man for the next few years. Not that any rumours of TOB to ND were necessarily true, but with the improvement we’ve seen on and off the field in our fb program, I sure has hell don’t want Jed out there trying to secure a decent coach in that marketplace today. I shudder to think of the result.

  5. Wulfpack 12/19/2008 at 8:21 AM #

    GT just gave Johnson a giant raise and extension. It’s time we step up to the plate and do the same for TOB and his staff, or else it will only be natural for him to hear other offers in the future. We must give him NO reason to listen because he is going to be a hot commodity real fast.

  6. TOBtime 12/19/2008 at 8:27 AM #

    Kelly “scoffed” at the initial figure. Now that’s just too funny when the all powerful ND football program with it’s own TV channel gets “scoffed” at. The only better place it could happen would be the hole.

  7. GAWolf 12/19/2008 at 8:44 AM #

    Wulfpack: Just curious… do you run a business or are you in a managerial capacity at your business? These ridiculous raises to keep employees can’t continue in light of the economy. I believe they’re stupid anyway for short-term employees. We often forget it but these college coaches are simply employees. They take the job knowing what the pay is. If someone comes calling on them and it’s apparent we’re in a bidding war for their services, then I understand doing a cost-benefit analysis to decide whether participating in the auction is worth the expense and/or the cost of losing him/her. However, giving blind and many times ridiculously inflated raises based on a small period of performance time is just poor business. See Virginia, Notre Dame, etc, etc, etc. It’s obviously important to compensate employees for their value and potential, but it’s crazy to bid against yourself. Crazy. And certainly in light of how shitty the economy is right now I think you’re going to see a lot of these extraordinary positions (college coaches, professional athletes, etc) who have been previously immune to typical market flux become more consistent with mainstream business practices. I heard on maybe Mike and Mike this morning that the price for a good corner outfielder in MLB is going DOWN. When was the last time you heard about salaries for any professional athletes (as a group) going DOWN? Similarly, I doubt will see schools (especially State schools with government hiring freezes) just jack out money because they’re afraid they *might* lose their coach. If someone courts TOB… we certainly have a decision to make. Minus that we should keep our wallet in our britches until something breaks in the rest of the economic world.

  8. Sam92 12/19/2008 at 9:33 AM #

    yes, the coaching carousel is fun to watch.

    personally i think it would have been premature for ND to fire weis this year, he didn’t really inherit great talent from willingham and i think fairly he should get another year to prove what he can do with his recruits

    we have sometimes wished that TOB were 10 years younger, but the upside of his age is that it makes it less likely that he’ll jump ship to have to start over again, since it takes him some time to build a program

    if we’ve got some money, sure, give TOB a raise, but I don’t think we have to worry too much about him leaving

  9. GoldenChain 12/19/2008 at 9:41 AM #

    GAWolf,
    Mr Nail meet Mr Hammer.
    I heard similar talk on PTI (or somewhere) that sports would be more reliant on gate receipts (ie ticket sales) in these years of decreased sponsors, promo money, etc. Heck, here in Concord the NASCAR teams are laying people off! That’s never-ever happened.
    I look for many pro teams to shed themselves of high ticket so-so players and high $ premadonnas.

    REMEMBER, TOB approached NCSU, not vice versa.
    That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look after him but dang, a losing season then a .500 season does not warrant a hefty raise (at least to me). I don’t think just money was TOB’s motivation and as long as we treat him decent and reasonable I do not see him leaving, at least not without making it known that someone is wooing him.
    If he doesn’t make it known then he had already made up his mind to leave.
    Heck after two more .500 seasons we might not want him! No reason for a long term expensive deal that we’d have to pay-off (ie Tommy Bowden). I need to see a little more from TOB before I’m ready to say “he’s da man”.
    Heck we gave Lowe a raise and extension after his 1st season, hows that workin’ out far ya? Not saying Sid can’t get it done but the complete meltdown last season and coaching mistakes make me wonder….

    It also makes me wonder what is the financial stake certain folks that suggest such raises and contracts (no offense Wulpack). How many years in the WPC (29 for me BTW), minimum contributions or large ones? Would you be willing to donate extra to the ’cause’ of raises and buyouts (if needed after the big extensions you suggest).
    It’s one thing to suggest such things when it’s not your money, another when it is.

    My opinion is that the problems with our Athletic Department are not money related but rather management and personnel related.

    And while I’m at it; just when I think our promotions folks can’t get any dumber (remember Chucks Red Shoes, remember the cardboard CtC) they are offering a bobble head Sid! Maybe we can get Sean May (aka Doughboy) to sign it like he does for the Tarkatz! Are these people xarolina grads? Rams club members? Now tell me that bobble head Sid doesn’t look like the Kool Aid Man?! Idiots.

  10. Alpha Wolf 12/19/2008 at 9:45 AM #

    Wulfpack: Just curious… do you run a business or are you in a managerial capacity at your business? These ridiculous raises to keep employees can’t continue in light of the economy. I believe they’re stupid anyway for short-term employees. We often forget it but these college coaches are simply employees.

    With all due respect, there is market rate to consider and that’s what any good employer considers, that is, if they want to keep their key employees. Otherwise, you would experience a talent drain and would paying the cost of new employees, which in most cases is far higher than retaining the original one in the first place. Why? Because by refusing to pay a key employee market rate, if you lose said key employee and have to replace them, guess what you are going to pay? Market rate. Except this time you are going to do so AND suffer the inevitable drop in productivity that always accompanies replacing an important position that must be filled.

    Bottom line is this: you can be as tough an employer as you like, but good employees with marketable skills will not stay with you forever if you underpay them.

    That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look after him but dang, a losing season then a .500 season does not warrant a hefty raise (at least to me).

    In this case, you don’t matter. Other hiring managers (ADs, etc) do – and if they are willing to write the check, that’s all that’s important.

    I’d rather give TOB a decent raise and not risk hiring another Tom Reed, but that’s just me.

  11. GoldenChain 12/19/2008 at 9:53 AM #

    “Bottom line is this: you can be as tough an employer as you like, but good employees with marketable skills will not stay with you forever if you underpay them.”

    AW, there’s a difference between paying good employees for outstanding work and being stupid (and there is certainly a laundry list of colleges who gave big raises and long contracts just to have it blow up on them later……in fact I think said Notre Dame IS ONE OF THEM!)
    But hey, if people have big bucks and want to throw them as a designated gift I’m sure it wouldn’t be refused. On the other hand, those of us who are just trying to ‘stay in the game’ during this recession aren’t in that position (that’s the majority of us) and aren’t friendly to those suggesting throwing what money we can give around cavalierly.

  12. Alpha Wolf 12/19/2008 at 10:09 AM #

    Golden,

    My company went your route a few years ago, and decided to not counter a key designer who had invented products that had brought his division about $2 billion in sales/year. A lot of it was political — he was an abrasive, egotistical sort that you either loved or hated, but one thing was a certainty: even in a down market he got the job done and not only invented platform products, he would also milk the platforms for all of their possible derivatives.

    So anyways, the guy leaves and goes to a competitor. We promote one of his understudies, who of course cannot recreate the same success because he doesn’t have the same talent. Meanwhile, our lost employee is now hammering us in the marketplace with his new company, so we suffer a double-whammy.

    Senior management won’t often admit they are wrong, but they will say off the record that they screwed the pooch on that deal.

    I fear NC State would do the same thing. O’Brien may not have taken NC State to a BCS bowl, but he has also set in place the pieces for that to happen. He is unquestionably a great coach. He is in demand, and if we fail to keep him happy it will set back the program to replace him. Not even Bill Cowher would step in and surpass the success that O’Brien is creating, because Cowher has never been a head coach in the college ranks and is inexperienced with the demands of that particular job — and if anything, Sidney Lowe should prove to you that there’s a learning curve for a college coach coming from the pros.

    Be sane, yes. But this is not a cotton mill worker we are talking about. It is a position that is in high demand and requires a different set of criteria.

  13. whitefang 12/19/2008 at 10:24 AM #

    I run several businesses and they all suck right now. But at the same time I know how expensive it is to replace a key employee. I don’t think any of us are saying pay the man stupid amounts.
    But at the same time it is a marketplace.
    An outfielder, a football coach, a free safety, a plant manager, a used car, etc is worth EXACTLY what someone else is willing to pay for it. You can say that in light of the economy someone else is willing to pay LESS for my plant manager, my car, and for TOB and you may be right. It is the job of the management to judge that of course.
    My personal opinion is that TOB is a bargain right now and we are damn lucky to have him where NC State is currently in the football pecking order. What that means is I think it would cost us a hell of a lot more to replace him with an employee of equal abilities without a substantial amount of luck / risk on an unknown.

  14. wufpup76 12/19/2008 at 10:40 AM #

    Please correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t there incentive-based clauses built into TOB’s contract?

    “If you win the ACC championship you get xxx more dollars”

    I thought this was the case, but may be just completely making it up out of nowhere

    Still, he’s more than a bargain for ncsu right now

  15. GoldenChain 12/19/2008 at 11:11 AM #

    Alpha, did TOB call us or did we call him?
    How many years in a row did he take BC to a bowl?
    I’m sure plenty of people called him and he didn’t leave. Now I certainly agree that the man is worth his due. Its just that my idea of his due and other people’s is probably different.

    Think about this, if you give large increases after modest results what does that mean when big results happen?

    I think GAWolf’s point, and my point, is that this coaching money has been going crazy the last 5 years or so and it cannot be sustained. However, I grant that colleges have helped create the problem by hiring AND FIRING at the drop of a hat these days so the coaches insist on big bucks and long contracts as insurance.

    I don’t think that TOB has proven he’s at the level of the key employee you let go … at least not yet.

  16. GAWolf 12/19/2008 at 12:33 PM #

    “Your route” is a bit of a jump Alphawolf. I’m not a “tough employer.” Quite the opposite. We have several employees that are maxed at their market rate ceiling. Unfortunately, that’s not anyone’s fault but as you say… the markets. I can’t have that employee hold me hostage with threats to leave in attempt to be paid more than market rate.

    I agree with you completely in that an employee should be paid for his abilities and his contributions. I think you failed to read that part of my post. I understand your points, and I agree that turnover is much more costly as is losing valuable employees.

    Further, as an employer there are other means to keeping employees happy. As goldenchain points out there are values in a job other than financial. Treating employees well and giving them space to grow in their positions are equally as valuable to some people.

    I just believe more in performance-based incentives than I do raises for potential. Certainly there is a place for both, but if TOB wins us a conference championship (which in turn helps the NC State brand and thus makes the school more money) then he should be rewarded for that financially. Otherwise, unless someone literally puts us in a bidding war for him we should not just write him a new paycheck… until of course he makes us more money to justify it.

    Further, the market rate is about to drop. Unless something significant changes in the next six months to year and turns around this sinking economy, sports-related employees are not going to be immune to the cut backs that the rest of us are already witnessing. (Quite frankly I do think sports coaches and athletes are all overpaid but I do not fault them for being so and I am happy for them that they are.) The true bottom line here is that the economy is terrible and everyone is cutting back. Sports are an extracurricular activity for Americans. It just so happens that it’s a big business as such. Good for sports and all those people who make money from it.

    HOWEVER, when times get tough the first things to go from the budget for the average person SHOULD BE extra curricular activities. Assuming the economy continues to slide, you will see less ticket sales (season tickets too), less merchandise sales, and thus less revenue. In turn, overhead becomes a problem for the team/school. It’s only natural that the market value of coaches/players goes down as a result.

    Fortunately for us TOB is about as rational a guy as you will find. I can’t imagine he is ignorant to what is going on around him or to the effect it could possibly have on the coaching market.

    Just to be clear… you over stepped some assumptions that because we are practical we are horrid employers or do not believe our quality employees are not assets worth keeping at all (practical) costs. I think you can agree you made a large leap there that is not necessarily true.

  17. 61Packer 12/19/2008 at 12:40 PM #

    It would be a disaster for us if TOB left now. The man has given me hope again that NC State can be a winner, with class. Get rid of everybody over there who has anything to do with athletics if you want, but leave TOB (and Kay Yow) alone.

    We are indeed lucky to have Tom O’Brien as our head football coach.

  18. GAWolf 12/19/2008 at 12:48 PM #

    One last thing: I know tons of people who are getting laid off or have been told they will be getting pay cuts. We tend to think and talk of sports as something magical and larger than life. It’s simply not. It’s a business and thus it’s subject to the same market pressures and dips and dives as everything else around us.

    Look at what happened to the banks and the large corporations who were paying ridiculous salaries to CEO’s. THey grew, grew, grew until the bubble burst. Now they’re looking at failing businesses. There are NO jobs on this planet that do not have glass ceilings…. except for MAYBE those that are created by the entrepreneurial spirit. If a company or school hires you, there’s a limit to what you can make. Period. For so long now we’ve lost sight of that and unfortunately we’ve milked the cow dry… it could happen to NC State athletics just as quick as it happened to GM, Citibank, Wachovia…

    If you’re employed through the holidays, be thankful for that. And I highly suggest you not go into ’09 asking for a raise. I know I wont be.

  19. WolftownVA81 12/19/2008 at 12:54 PM #

    There are many ways to let an employee know they are valued. Sometimes, the money isn’t there to acknowledge their contributions in a financial way. However, my concern is that our AD is too clueless to find those other ways that employees appreciate. Perks is the first thing that comes to my mind. For starters, maybe Jed could give the whole football staff exclusive use of his lake house. Then he’d also have a little more time for his official duties. Not sure if that’s a win – win but the coaches families may appreciate it.

  20. GAWolf 12/19/2008 at 1:12 PM #

    Now see… that’s what I’m talking about WolftownVA81.

    The problem here is that Jed has proven to be way TOO good of an employer through the years. Jed is like the parent who buddies up to his kids and forgets to parent them. You know the parent… the one who is more worried about being their kids’ friend than being their disciplinarian. Those kids wind up being complete hellish and selfish imps as they get older because they are conditioned to get whatever they want despite not having to behave and/or produce positive gains. But to the failed parent it’s completely okay because… hey… they’re buddies!

  21. Alpha Wolf 12/19/2008 at 1:36 PM #

    Just to be clear… you over stepped some assumptions that because we are practical we are horrid employers or do not believe our quality employees are not assets worth keeping at all (practical) costs. I think you can agree you made a large leap there that is not necessarily true.

    Let’s clear the air here — this is a disagreement and discussion among gentlemen and I’m not trying to cast aspersions your way, GAWolf. If it seems so, then my honest apologies. That’s certainly not what I meant. I’m sure you’re a fine employer and/or manager.

    Certainly there is a limit to what’s practical, that’s the case with any employee.

    Again, if it seemed like I was tossing stones at you, my apology.

  22. GAWolf 12/19/2008 at 1:49 PM #

    Thank you.

    I love TOB. He’s the best thing to happen to NC State athletics in many years. I want him to stay as long as he wants to stay. I just don’t think anyone in their right mind right now is asking for/demanding raises.

  23. Alpha Wolf 12/19/2008 at 1:58 PM #

    ^ I know I am not. I’m just doing my job and glad to not be caught up in the recession.

  24. Daily Update 12/19/2008 at 2:04 PM #

    I know we have he the ND rumor with TOB…but other than that who is trying to or going to hire him away from us?

  25. GoldenChain 12/19/2008 at 2:48 PM #

    I think that TOB realizes that despite what talk radio and the papers say, the WolfPackNation is generally reasonable and tolerant.
    The guys that make two and three times more than him are the ones who will get the axe if they don’t win 10+ games a year.
    TOB doesn’t have that pressure on him and he knows it.

    xarolina is playing a fools game with BD. They can pay him more and more but eventually someone will make the right offer and he’ll jump just like Smack Brownie did (or else he’ll be making Big-10 kind of money and winning 8 games a year in return).

1 2

Leave a Reply