Why I Don’t Get Worked Up About Avent

As you no doubt know by now, the Georgia Bulldogs advanced to the CWS yesterday, shit-canning the Pack Nine 17-8. I was disappointed, but in no way surprised or really upset.

Elliott Avent has been at State a long damned time. He has not won an ACC title, and twice bumped up against the “Sendek glass ceiling” – losing in the Super Regionals (i.e., Sweet Sixteen). His teams are consistently pretty good, but never great. Do I think Avent’s a great coach? No. Do I want him replaced? No.

You may ask yourself whether I am being intellectually inconsistent. But I have different standards for revenue sports (football and mens’ basketball) than the non-revenue world, even high profile non-revenue sports (baseball and womens’ basketball). And I think that’s completely fair.

Championships and major milestones (such as reaching the CWS) in non-revenue sports are to be celebrated and rewarded – but not necessarily expected. Analogize it to the business world – one would expect more out of a $750K salaried executive VP than a $60K salaried middle manager. The executive VP is well compensated for the demands of the job, which includes “no excuses” responsibility for the bottom line. “Solid” performance by the middle manager might mean smaller raises and being passed over for promotions. But rarely does that mean a pink slip is forthcoming. And the salaries we have paid Avent over the last decade haven’t made him set financially for life.

That does NOT mean non-revenue sports coaches should have lifetime contracts. Obvious failures like George Tarantini should have been fired many years ago. And it also does not mean that the athletic department should fail to strive for championships. Coaches that do achieve the highest level of success should be paid for it. As a Wolfpack Club member, I would heartily endorse part of our dues going to a “Champions Fund” which paid significant bonuses for non-revenue coaches leading the Pack to ACC titles and major national milestones. Give coaches a tangible reason to strive for the top rather than settle for the middle, and give aspiring “star” coaches an incentive to come here (note to Lee Fowler – offering de facto lifetime “no expectations” employment does not entice star-caliber people).

Also, one can argue as to whether baseball is truly a non-revenue sport. Like womens’ hoops, I think that it is – just a high profile one. Yes, I am generally more aware of (and interested in) Wolfpack baseball and womens’ hoops than, say, gymanstics or soccer. But really, who knows anything about the ACC’s television contract for baseball? Did anyone care about ACC expansion’s impact on that? How many games are even televised, prior to the tourney stage? How much are you charged for admission? Hell, just look at the newspaper coverage – Chip Alexander might as well be writing about Pee Wee soccer. It’s all mellow, “feel good” stuff, with lots of human interest angles. No detailed anaylsis, mostly just “great win” or “tough loss.” This is not the pressure cooker of ACC mens’ basketball, and the media coverage and fan interest bear that out.

About BJD95

1995 NC State graduate, sufferer of Les and MOC during my entire student tenure. An equal-opportunity objective critic and analyst of Wolfpack sports.

Baseball Non-Revenue

45 Responses to Why I Don’t Get Worked Up About Avent

  1. gopack17 06/09/2008 at 9:53 AM #

    I agree with you about Avent and that baseball is definitly a non-revenue sport. I go to a lot of the games and I think that anytime 17 and under get in free it should be classified as non-revenue.

  2. Astral Rain 06/09/2008 at 9:55 AM #

    I think it’s a revenue sport at some places. I’m sure Fullerton makes money off their program. Probably the true elite programs do as well.

    I’m not disappointed because they exceeded expectations, and let’s face it, super-regional in baseball here is a good year. Hopefully this is a stepping stone for what is to come.

  3. TopTenPack 06/09/2008 at 10:02 AM #

    I like the idea of the Champion Fund. This way, we as fans can demand the success that LF does not. Are there other universities with similar funds?

  4. El Scrotcho 06/09/2008 at 10:07 AM #

    The recent statistical look at achievement across the athletic department certainly indicates that there are lots of low hanging fruit that would need to addressed before we get to baseball. Baseball had a good year and achieved more than just about any other sport – that’s worth 2 yr immunity from getting voted off the island. Now the rest of the deadwood idling around Raleigh…

  5. choppack1 06/09/2008 at 10:24 AM #

    If I was AD or Chancellor – that would be part of an incentive package. (I’d actually have several incentives, not just limited to championships.)

    Like you, I don’t think baseball is the problem. I would say, however, that a program like this is the most difficult to manage. If you are doing some good things, but can’t quite turn the corner – it makes decisions on that employee difficult. (In this case, you’d have an operation making profits, meeting base expectations every year, but never really exceeding them or doing anything special.)

    Times like these, perhaps a change is best for both parties if you ever want to exceed expecations.

  6. Astral Rain 06/09/2008 at 10:31 AM #

    The last thing we need is the boobs upstairs making changes- they always make things worse.

  7. happypackdad 06/09/2008 at 10:59 AM #

    Has coach Avent maxed out hos potential? Is the Super Regionals as high as he can go?

  8. choppack1 06/09/2008 at 11:12 AM #

    hpd – I’m not sure. He has been here a long time – and it’s as far as he’s gotten. The good news is that he’s gotten here before. The bad news is that he hasn’t gotten past it or won ACC tournament title.

    The optimist in me thinks that – especially w/ Holliday as an assistant – we can turn the corner. However, I think it’s only logical to wonder if one can get any farther. He’s been here since the 1997 season.

    It’s one of those things that can’t be proven one way or the other. However, if you judge him by his record at NC State, I do think it’s fair to say, “why would you think things will change” – since he’s coached 12 seasons.

    I would also note that I wouldn’t call this “accepting mediocrity”…his results are pretty good. However, one has to wonder if we’ll ever get any farther than we got this year. And like I said, that’s impossible to answer.

  9. Elrod 06/09/2008 at 11:30 AM #

    To me, Avent’s 12 years is a little hard to evaluate. He’s had two distinct periods: the early years at the ‘old’ Doak and the later years at the ‘new’ Doak. That facility change made a big difference in his ability to recruit. We need to see how much difference the new stadium makes.

    I like the idea of having the ‘Champion Fund’. My only question is: Who would manage it and make the allocation decisions? It scares me to death to think Jed would be in charge of it.

  10. ruffles31 06/09/2008 at 11:31 AM #

    As someone who has called Avent “Sendek 2.0”, I think a very fair analogy would be comparing his hiring of Holliday to Sendek’s hiring of Larry Hunter. Avent has, in fact, said that he didn’t make one pitching decision all year. I think adding a great coach like Holliday has really elevated our team, much like adding Hunter elevated the basketball team.

    Now, I never would think that Avent would be in any danger of losing his job. Let’s get real. He definitely has a longer leash than other coaches, and that is saying something. See Tarantini, George and Kerrigan, Laura. Who do they report to? That’s right. Him again.

    I went to the Wolfpack Club Caravan in Raleigh a couple of weeks ago and Avent was by far the most entertaining coach that talked. He is very engaging and funny. I thought that if I was a HS kid looking at State that I would like to play for Avent.

    My concern is that he has reached his ceiling. I hope not, but 11 years without a title nor CWS appearance is a bummer to me. And the ACC is tough. Miami and FSU are always good. And in the past few years, UNC has been one of the top 3 teams in the country. Clemson had an aberration this year. Virginia, Georgia Tech, and Wake are usually pretty good. This is an extremely tough conference. Even as good as we were this year, we were only 4th in the conference.

    Our best recruits seem to never come here (get drafted and go pro (Hamilton, Upton for example), not that I can blame them) and we always have one area where we are average at best every year. That comes back to bite us. This year, our hitting wasn’t anything real special. A couple of years our bullpen wasn’t great. Some years, we only have one really good starter. It always is something.

  11. old13 06/09/2008 at 11:47 AM #

    I think that baseball is one of the last Wolfpack sports that needs to be tinkered with AT THIS TIME. With so much mediocrity (or worse) across the Wolfpack board, there are many other kinks in the armor that have a higher priority for improvement. If, however, the Athletics Department as a whole should show marked improvement in both administrative performance as well as athletic achievement, (not under you-know-who’s watch, of course!), then maybe baseball should be addressed from the perspective of raising expectations and performance.

  12. fer06 06/09/2008 at 11:50 AM #

    .

  13. redfred2 06/09/2008 at 11:53 AM #

    Not making excuses for Avant’s record but, HE IS AT NC STATE afterall, and based just on his history HERE, he is about the brightest star we have hanging around any program coaching wise. Not bad, but nothing to brag on, that is unless just making making the post season is still the standard to judge a coach by.

  14. happypackdad 06/09/2008 at 12:02 PM #

    “It’s one of those things that can’t be proven one way or the other. However, if you judge him by his record at NC State, I do think it’s fair to say, “why would you think things will change” – since he’s coached 12 seasons.”

    Just because things haven’t happened before doesn’t mean they can’t happen. We’ll never know what Herb’s ceiling was just as we don’t know what Coach Avent’s is. That 1st inning yesterday was about as improbable & frustrating as watching Vandy come back & win that game in the NCAAs.

  15. WolftownVA81 06/09/2008 at 12:13 PM #

    IMHO, we let things get too far out of hand in the first inning. However, based on continued scoring by the Bulldogs, it didn’t change the outcome. It was a frustrating day for all but I congratulate the team on a great season. Hope I can make some games next year. Go Pack.

  16. packof81 06/09/2008 at 12:21 PM #

    I’m with old13. NCSU Baseball ain’t what needs fixing first.

  17. Classof89 06/09/2008 at 12:44 PM #

    Am I the only one who perceives an upward trend in the Avent/Holliday era? Last year–made a regional. This year–won a regional, won a game in a super regional. Next two years are important for the program…will they capitalize on the program’s success to go to the next level, or will they slip back into the middle of the pack in the ACC with Clemson, GaTech, and Virginia…

    UNC built themselves into a solid top 5 national, top 3 ACC (those are the same thing) perennial CWS participant in 5 or 6 years…will we turn the same corner with the extra boost Holliday gives us?

  18. choppack1 06/09/2008 at 12:47 PM #

    Keep in mind, I like Avent and don’t have any problem w/ him being retained. It will also be interesting to see how recruiting w/ the “new” baseball facility goes.

    Lie redfred said, he’s probably the most successful coach of the high interest sports.

  19. BoKnowsNCS71 06/09/2008 at 1:37 PM #

    I think that a Coach is often as good as the people he hires. And Coach Avent has hired an awesome Pitching Coach in Holladay who has major CWS wins with ASU and Texas — almost the Norm Chow of pitching coaches — and he will continue to get us better talent in many areas. Lets not get impatient –again — and let this progress.

  20. choppack1 06/09/2008 at 1:44 PM #

    BK – I think that’s a good point. The only problem is where does the genius lie? Holliday is not a spring chicken. I think he’s a great coach, and like I said, I’m in Avent’s corner – but if you need a Norm Chow to be successful, let’s just say that’s not a great sign…Because there’s only 1 Norm Chow, and NC State being where it is in the baseball pecking order (and most sports in general) – what happens when that person leaves for greener pastures?

    Please look at this hypoethetically, not as a position on Avent at present.

  21. adchappe 06/09/2008 at 1:56 PM #

    I disagree. I feel like we should expect excellence in every sport. I understand that mid-level managers aren’t compared against CEO’s…but they are compared against other mid-level managers. Point being, each job demands success at each level. Mediocrity is never tolerated at any level, and if it is…you’re working for the wrong organization.

    I don’t think it really matters revenue vs non-revenue sports. Coaches for every sport should be expected to win and advance the program within reasonable expectations. One of the biggest truths in business (and any other manager would agree with me) is that the results of your team oftentimes match your expectations. If you expect mediocrity…that’s exactly what your team (or coaches)will give you. I hope Lee Fowler is reading this…

  22. Wolf74 06/09/2008 at 1:59 PM #

    I have to agree, I don’t get worked up over Coach Avent although I really feel he has maxed out and would like to see the Pack 9 go to Omaha but don’t really want him fired. One reason is that we are, and I hate to say it, behind the baseball schools in facilities. In the ACC we are at a minimum behind FSU, Miami and Clemson now. We’ll be behind the Heels as soon as their renovation is finished. In close proximity, we’ll be farther behind South Carolina when they open their new stadium.

    As for Coach Avent, IMHO he just doesn’t have that good of a reputation among the NC travel teams and players and that is in a state, North Carolina, that is generally considered one of the top five in the country in turning out quality high school baseball players (behind only California, Florida, Texas and Georgia). I personally believe you have to at a minimum hold your own in recruiting your home state in baseball, even more so than in football, to be consistently competitive. North Carolina and Fox appear to be the darlings on the North Carolina travel ball circuit as they have been focusing on this area for several years – well before they ever went to Omaha the first time. They have a good reputation and are highly visible – something the Pack hasn’t necessarily been.

    The reason for having to hold your own with in-state recruiting has been because baseball was limited to 11.7 scholarships. Therefore players received partials. The Heels have been getting quality instate position players to come to play there for several years for almost peanuts and saving the $$$ to give bigger percentage money to bigtime pitchers. I know that two in-state position players on the UNC team (they’re friends with my son) that started in the two College World Series only got $500 – $1000 (basically book money) per year (approximately 4 to 7% of one scholarship) to go there. This frees up a lot of money for the pitchers.

    Now the baseball scholarship rules change this coming fall. If a player gets any athletic scholarship money, he will have to get a minimum of 25% with a maximum of 27 players on a 35 man roster Fall roster receiving money. UNC & South Carolina have historically brought in 12-18 players per year and essentially had Fall tryouts sending the players they didn’t want off to JuCo and smaller schools. No more.

    Hopefully, these changes may help NCSU and Avent in state as UNC will run out of money quicker. I certainly hope so.

  23. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 06/09/2008 at 2:30 PM #

    Wake me up when it is football season.

  24. Wisc-Wolf 06/09/2008 at 4:02 PM #

    I believe Coach Avent’s job should be secure for now. However, I believe every coach at State should know that they are expected to compete for conference championships and national championships on a consistent basis. I am not saying to fire a coach because he has had two to three down years, but should a coach go an extended period of time and not compete for a conference championship then it may be time for a change. WE should expect exellence at every level whether it is baseball, soccer or basketball. Every school we compete against is in the same boat for the non-revenue sports. Although there are a number of schools where baseball may very well be considered a revenue producing sport.

  25. ncsslim 06/09/2008 at 4:59 PM #

    Anyone who thinks we have somehow “separated” ourselves from Clemson, GaT (both who seen Omaha multiple times recently) and even Virginia is fooling themselves. We have not distinguished ourselves from the middle tier and probably will not. I’m sure Clemson and Tech would argue that they are top tier. The ACC is damn tough. That is fine, but do not delude yourselves. It’s obvious that Tom Holliday has made a significant impact on the program in short order, and although I have no earthly idea how Avent was able to pull him in, I hope we have the insight to keep him. This has not routinely been our calling card. He will help recruiting dramatically (whether he’s hands-on involved or not) and will at least solidify our position as a contender. How did Avent get Tom anyway? Got to be either goat pictures or a jurisdictional issue (just kidding).

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