What Went Wrong?

I may have to update my list of Data Analysis Mistakes to include the nuances of summer football speculation. Let’s review some “notable predictions” from the last few off-seasons:

– The 2003 defense was going to be just fine, even though 6 or 7 defensive linemen were graduating. The top-10 recruiting class was going to make up for the lack of experience with talent.

– The 2004 offense was going to be just fine after Rivers left because all State needed was someone to “manage” the offense. There was enough talent on offense that State didn’t need the QB to win the game.

– The 2005 offense was going to be just fine because Jay Davis had over 2000 yards passing in 2004 and was going to be much improved.

– The 2006 offense was going to be just fine because State had a 6-1 record after Marcus Stone became the starting QB.

I’m not going to waste the time/space to point out just how horribly (and predictably) wrong each one of these “conclusions” was. I just wanted to remind everyone of the recent past as a prelude to dissecting this year’s preferred “analysis”. Namely, State is going to do much better this year because TOB is going to correct the horrible problem with penalties that plagued Amato’s undisciplined players.

There is a slight twist to this off-season’s mindless chatter…the penalty/discipline problem is being parroted by media types from all over the southeast and not just repeated endlessly on the message boards. I attribute the media attention to two different types of sports writers:

– Those writers that don’t want to give up their running battle with Amato. They now have an opportunity to get in some shots while Amato is gone and won’t be able to get any jabs back at them. (Thanks to streaming media, we’ve gotten to hear some of Amato’s shots, even if they didn’t end up in print.)

– Those writers that are either too stupid or too lazy to do their own work. These writers simply recycle anything catchy that they read somewhere else.

Let’s look this “Penalty/Discipline Problem” from several different angles.

1) I work with a guy that used to be a sports writer at a small paper in Florida and covered Florida State. During Amato’s first tenure at FSU, he was known as the disciplinarian. The players didn’t mind being called into Bowden’s or Andrew’s office…but they wanted no part of Amato.

Now I’ve read and heard similar versions of this story in other places. But since this story comes from someone I know, I give it a lot more credence even if it doesn’t mean anything special to you.

I guess that Amato just turned into a mindless softie once he became the head coach.

2) Thanks to RAWFS for finding this quote from TOB on spring practice:

I don’t want to comment on anything in the past. But I haven’t seen any real discipline issues since we’ve been here and on the field. I’m happy with these kids. They’re attentive. They’re listening. They want to do the right things and they’re working hard to do the right things.

I think that if “discipline” were a real problem, it would take longer than just spring practice to get it worked out.

3) Here’s what Terry Bowden had to say recently about penalties and the “problems” that they create:

How many times have you heard the saying that penalties will get you beat? …Of the top 10 teams in college football last season in least yards penalized, six of them had losing records…Incidentally, the national champion Florida Gators finished the season ranked 109th out of 119 schools in least yards penalized and only one team in the final top 10 made it into the top 35 least-penalized teams.

It looks like quite a few people need to work on their cause/effect relationships.

4) Lastly thanks to pointer from legacyman, here is how State and BC compared on penalties last year:

NC State
– 7 penalties per game
– 58 penalty yards per game

Boston College
– 6 penalties per game
– 44 penalty yards per game

No one is saying that penalties are not A problem, but can I have a show of hands of those people that really believe that State can make a dramatic improvement in the W/L record just by “improving” the penalty situation to match BC? (All those with hands raised, I have a unique business opportunity that I would like to talk to you about…)

So what was the real problem? It should come as no shock to any of our regular readers that I have prepared a table to show what really needs to be corrected:

NC State’s National Rank

 

2004

2005

2006

Rushing
Offense

68

83

79

Passing
Offense

71

92

81

Total
Offense

78

103

97

Scoring
Offense

73

95

101

For the last three years, State has ranked in the bottom third of Division I in almost every offensive category. I don’t understand how any State fan that has watched the last three seasons can reach anything other than the most obvious conclusion…a woefully unproductive offense directly led to three mostly forgettable seasons.

The following list summarizes the most commonly blamed reasons for the offensive woes:

– The consistently worst QB play in Raleigh since the mid-80’s (ie before Erik Kramer).

– An offensive line that couldn’t provide protection for the QB or running room for the RBs.

– Offensive coordinators that weren’t qualified to handle play-calling duties for a Pee-Wee league. One OC had the imagination of a pumpkin and the other dreamed up hopelessly complex schemes that produced even worse results than the Pumpkin.

– Position coaches that couldn’t teach and develop the players they had. Or sometimes, the recruiting is blamed for not getting better players.

So what was the chief reason for the offensive woes?
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.
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WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!

What are you going to do even if you could blame only one area or person? I really don’t understand the need to search for a witch to burn. From where I sit, there are plenty of reasons to place the blame on several different areas.

The bottom line is that the offense has stunk and needs major improvement before State fans can expect to see substantial improvement in the W/L column. Unfortunately, it’s not immediately obvious to me that just changing coaches will be enough to fix these problems by this fall.

There are certainly legitmate questions/concerns about several different areas of the team, but droning endlessly about penalties/discipline is essentially the same thing as arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

About VaWolf82

Engineer living in Central Va. and senior curmudgeon amongst SFN authors One wife, two kids, one dog, four vehicles on insurance, and four phones on cell plan...looking forward to empty nest status. Graduated 1982

'07 Football General NCS Football

83 Responses to What Went Wrong?

  1. Rick 04/17/2007 at 7:34 AM #

    “I would also say that the discipline problem — or at least the umbrella term “discipline problem” as I see it — pertains also to the coaching staff consistency and loyalty, and HC as manager.”

    How many more things can we lump under discipline? Dirty uniforms? Wrong sixe cleats? 😉

  2. VaWolf82 04/17/2007 at 8:00 AM #

    How many more things can we lump under discipline?

    As many as it takes so that we don’t have to look and see just how bad the offensive production has been over the last three seasons.

    In my mind there is a huge difference in “lack of discipline” and “mistakes”. You will never eliminate mistakes. But even if you could eliminate every penalty and every mistake…..how do you intend to eliminate the opposing defenses? The offensive numbers show that it didn’t take much defenese to shut State’s woeful offense down.

    There is a usually direct correlation between offensive production and points. There is a usually a direct correlation between points and wins. As Terry Bowden ponits out….there is no correlation between penalities (ie mistakes) and wins.

    Someone said that they didn’t think that anything would get worse under the new regime. Hopefully you are correct. However, I am taking a wait-and-see approach about the defense. I am not convinced that the defenses in the future will be as good as the ones we’ve had over the last several years (with the notable exception of the ’03 season).

    However, I would gladly trade a “little” on defense for some decent offensive production.

  3. VaWolf82 04/17/2007 at 8:03 AM #

    I’m suprised that no one has commented on the fact that Trestman’s offenses were noticeably worse than Mazzone’s. This is something that surprised me when I looked up the stats from the NCAA’s site.

  4. noah 04/17/2007 at 8:21 AM #

    College sports fans HATE taking shots at the players. They’re amateurs, they’re kids…whatever. They just won’t do it. So even if a player is just a talentless, awful, waste of a scholarship, people won’t say it. They’ll blame the coaches.

    Why did our offense suck? I don’t know how you can blame Mazzone or Trestman. They might have been great, they might have been awful. How could you tell? Our off. line has been so horrible that it really didn’t matter WHAT plays you called. Nothing was going to work.

    Go back and look at our recruiting. Aside from Leroy Harris, we pretty much missed entirely on every primary and secondary offensive line recruit until the class with Curtis Crouch. Seems like that was the year that we managed to land Crouch, Julian Williams, Jerrail McCuller and a few others.

    On signing day, we’d usually get the list of recruits and there would be two or three off. linemen on it and we’d all say, “Who is this guy?” And that would be our left tackle for three years. Walk-ons should NOT be able to step into the starting lineup and see significant playing time for top-25 programs.

    Waaay back in the mid-90s, I consistently heard what a great eye for talent Robbie Caldwell had. He was the guy that was able to spot the difference between a 6-6, 300 pound fat guy and a guy who could BE a 6-6, 300 pound tackle. So we ended up with Scott Kooistra, Jarvis Borum, the guy from Lawn Guyland who had the shoulder problems and plenty of others.

  5. choppack1 04/17/2007 at 8:28 AM #

    VaWolf – Why were you surprised in looking at the statistics? Mazzone’s Davis was better than Trestman’s Davis.

    Noah – You are right about the OL. It has stunk recently. Unfortunatley for Amato, changing OL coaches – we had 3 under him, was not an option, nor was changing OCs – we had 4 under him. He never really showed the ability to make the same pitches to up and coming OCs that he did for recruits.

  6. noah 04/17/2007 at 8:30 AM #

    We had one of the best OL coaches on the planet under Amato. You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken…..waste.

  7. StateFans 04/17/2007 at 8:33 AM #

    * Instead of looking at the correlation of penalties to winning percentage, I would guess that turnovers to winning percentage tells a more accurate story for our program (and all others).

    * I mentioned yesterday in a post that I expect Jerriall McCuller and Julian Williams to beef up our OLine. With Crouch, Heppe, and Lathan all having lots of experience – our offense can improve if our OLine can avoid injury.

  8. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 8:36 AM #

    I do think there’s sufficient “low hanging fruit” to take us from a 3-win team to anywhere from 5-7 wins this year. Coaching can do THAT much, I think. You can’t tell me that our roster is significantly less talented than the rosters Coach O’Brien guided to 8-win seasons.

    It’s the NEXT step that will take more time, becoming a real contender for the division crown.

    The problems with Amato were well-documented. It wasn’t that he had a bad streak of offensive coaches – certainly not JUST that, anyway. He was a poor manager with his staff, which led to lots of turnover and morale problems. Ask a former D-1 football player whether that’s important, especially with position coaches (who the player has the most interaction with). I worked with a guy who was a DB under Sheridan, and his observation watching us play the last few years (shared by other former players, he said) was that the players didn’t respect the coaching staff.

    That’s a MAJOR problem, folks – and it wasn’t going to get better. Chuck Amato was laying the groundwork to try to make Marc Trestman the fall guy for his own failings. We are incredibly lucky that the powers that be stepped in and didn’t let that happen.

    Plenty of great assistants just aren’t cut out to be head coaches. Chuck Amato is one of them. There’s a reason why Cincinnati (a job Chuck tried hard to get) or someone else didn’t snap him up. As usual, the market is the best objective evaluator on this “debate.”

  9. Mike 04/17/2007 at 8:38 AM #

    VA Wolf, I dont think anyone here has ever considered me a Trestman supporter. I wrote back when we were considering him that I hoped we would not hire the guy. Then some others came on here and said Trestman was a great mind and would be very successful. Even while we struggled on O, I continued to blame Trestman while others continued to defend him.

    I did notice the downfall in stats, but as you said in your initial entry, no need to blame one person. The blame falls to everyone.

    One other interesting point, and I dont have time to research this, but look at how many long fields vs short fields we had. Start on the 50, dont have to gain many yards, and teams are capable of doing this. Start on your own 10, and you can gain 60 yards, look good on the stats, and still have nothing to show. I dont care who youo are or what colors you wear, it is difficult to consistently drive 80-90 yards every drive. To me, it seemed the last few years we always had the long field, trying to fight our way in the field position game.

  10. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 8:42 AM #

    ^ Would it interest you to know that Trestman was around 10th on Chuck’s “list” – and that most of the names above him wouldn’t even return Chuck’s phone calls? Do you think that maybe Chuck himself interfered with Trestman’s ability to do his job? Maybe that had something to do with the guys who wouldn’t call Chuck back…

  11. RAWFS 04/17/2007 at 8:43 AM #

    Looking at penalties holistically is probably a mistake. There are penalties and then there are unforced error penalties, stuff like personal foul penalties on the defense that continue drives for the opposition, etc.

    Those, I think, were a major problem with NC State the past three or more years. That all points back to poise.

    Poise, or more specifically the lack of it, reared its ugly head all too often when plays were not chosen in a timely manner on the sidelines, leaving inexperienced quarterbacks little time to recognize defenses and thus change the play at the line of scrimmage.

  12. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 8:44 AM #

    That’s not to make Trestman blameless, here. He’s an odd duck, and Chuck was warned about his potential to disrupt staff chemistry before he made the hire.

  13. MadWolf92 04/17/2007 at 8:44 AM #

    “How many more things can we lump under discipline?”

    “As many as it takes so that we don’t have to look and see just how bad the offensive production has been over the last three seasons. ”

    That’s a bit of a straw man. Not every one is arguing that we’ve been bad *only* because of discipline. Our offense has been really bad, and it will take time to improve that. Taking care of the ball, knowing your assignments, and eliminating *dumb* penalties are a collective, fixable “marginal” item (along with luck) that could give us about a 3 win difference *this* year. The offense will take a little more time.

  14. for2n8son 04/17/2007 at 8:45 AM #

    I really feel that a key to everything has been our OL. In the past few years we have not been able to get out running backs into the defense’s secondary except on rare occasion. That hampered our passing game. It also put pressure on the QB and RBs to try to force things when they saw even a glimmer of light on a particular play. Frequently that mind set would result in a turnover of some sort or a drive killing penalty. That kept your defense on the field too long and they would get tired on and on.

    I hope I am not being too optimistic, but I sensed a noticeable difference in the OL on Saturday. They didn’t seem confused about their assignment. They picked up well on the defense’s stunts and they were “nasty” aggressive when they blocked. I liked what I saw and if we duplicate that kind of effort against real competition and we stay healthy, we could all be evry pleased with how we do this year.

  15. RickJ 04/17/2007 at 9:01 AM #

    Great discussion regarding our problems on offense. Allow me to introduce a defensive issue. Wake barely beat the three sorriest teams in the ACC (Duke, UNC & NC State) and ended up as ACC Champions. How in the heck did they do this? I believe the below statistic best explains their success and it hasn’t been widely reported:

    Red Zone Defense – Wake Forest – 67% (1st in league);
    NC State – 92% (11th in league).

    Can somebody give me a reason for this disparity other than coaching?

  16. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 9:09 AM #

    Wake was alot tougher mentally than we were. They reacted differently to getting punched in the mouth, so to speak.

  17. VaWolf82 04/17/2007 at 9:35 AM #

    Looking at penalties holistically is probably a mistake.

    Concentrating our attention on any one stat is usually a mistake. However, wouldn’t you expect there to be a correlation between “general mistakes” and “mistakes that drew a flag”?

    I really feel that a key to everything has been our OL.

    And I saw throw after throw bounce to the receiver or fly 6 feet over his head….without any DL anywhere near our QB. As noah said, no one wants to bash the players, but State’s QB play has been horrendus.

  18. choppack1 04/17/2007 at 9:47 AM #

    VaWolf – do you think it’s just coincidence that 3 QBs had progress, then got worse w/ time under our previous regime?

    Davis
    Stone
    Evans

    -All 3 showed promise at one point, and all 3 gradually lost confidence. I think it has every bit to do w/ coaching. If Jamie Barnette – a kid that MOC, Inc brought into play safety – can be an All-ACC performer, Stone, Davis and Evans should have been at least serviceable.

    There will always be flukes – but 3 flukes in a row???

  19. McPete 04/17/2007 at 9:49 AM #

    I just heard Caulton Tudor’s podcast about NC State and UNC football. He thinks that carolina has 4 or 5 wins on their time, while state could win 7 or 8 if things go right. When asked about which coach will have more long term success at their respective schools, Tudor stated that O Brien’s track record speaks for itself and he didn’t think TOB would be going anywhere. then he said that butch davis would win 7 or 8 games one year and leave for a better job. Hmmm. I’m so sick of the N&O’s unc bias at it again. all this tarheel love is disgusting. like amato said, that paper just has it in for the university.

  20. BJD95 04/17/2007 at 9:55 AM #

    ^ What’s biased about that? CT seems to be saying that UNC is definitely not a “destination job” and that Davis will jump at the first opportunity. That seems more like a slam against UNC’s program than anything else.

  21. Buddygreen 04/17/2007 at 9:55 AM #

    You have to give some credit to the fact that defenses have dominated the acc in recent years also. That only compounded our other problems with the fact that we replaced playing duke with miami, bc, or vt in the past years.

  22. TNCSU 04/17/2007 at 10:02 AM #

    I also don’t see any UNC bias in CT’s statement. It says the opposite to me also. Offensively, I think we’ve tried to fit our players into a certain system, rather than designing a “system” to maximize the talents of the players we have… I think there definitely is a difference.

  23. MadWolf92 04/17/2007 at 10:02 AM #

    Irony much, BJD? 🙂

  24. branjawn 04/17/2007 at 10:49 AM #

    Yeah, MadWolf and I gotcha McPete.

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