A BAD Idea

This entry regarding football recruiting and in-state talent has a lot of information in it.

In the entry we said:

Again – the issue isn’t the gross amount of talent in the state of North Carolina. The issue is the disproportionately large number of local programs that the local talent must support. Add to this mix the fact that UNC-Charlotte is now considering the addition of a Division One football program and you wonder if local schools will soon be starting two-hundred point linemen. (The UNC Board of Governors would do well to squash this ‘dream’ right now!)

Right on cue the Charlotte Observer ran a series of front page articles regarding UNC-Charlotte’s potential interest in fielding a football program. You can click here for the main article that includes a list of related links.

Chancellor Dubois is reluctant to talk about the spot — or any other potential site — because he doesn’t want the UNCC community to think he is in favor of football. He also doesn’t want anyone to think he is against it.

This, he will say: At the next UNCC board of trustees meeting, scheduled for Thursday, he will recommend that a citizen committee study the feasibility of football. “I’m optimistic they’ll agree,” he says.

The “F” Question, as Dubois calls it, has been an on-and-off topic at the school for decades — though never more than in the past five years, as UNCC has grown and tried to shed its commuter campus image. Last year, alumni started a Web site that takes nonbinding pledges for football. Students are rallying, wearing football T-shirts at basketball games.

Big-time football, Dubois knows, is tempting. He is a former University of Wyoming president; he understands how the sport can enhance the student and alumni experience, how it connects a college to its community. Since 1990, at least 40 schools have started football programs or moved into Division I-A, the NCAA’s top level.

“It’s a transformational decision,” he says.

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General NCS Football

18 Responses to A BAD Idea

  1. choppack1 02/12/2007 at 8:43 AM #

    I can think of a lot of schools against this – ECU, Clemson, USC, and UT.

    But if I was a UNC-C grad, I’d be all for it. Their basketball only niche ensures them of little time status. Imagine taking a basketball player on a recruiting trip and going, “Well, we’ve got a soccer game we’re all going to attend at 3:45…then it’s off to Bennigan’s for dinner!”

  2. roandaddy 02/12/2007 at 9:00 AM #

    Sorry.. but this sounds like sour grapes after we had our second straight year of #50’s in the nation in recruiting. If this argument were remotely true.. why did App State just repeat as division IAA national champs? Why is Wofford actually doing well in football? The fact is.. there are tons of players out there.. obviously not all are 4-5 star quality players.. but many can’t make the big schools due to grades.
    I do not fear a UNCC team.. it will be a bottom tier team used to fill up schedules.. but at least its another opportunity for kids to play football that might not otherwise be able to.
    All being said.. look at most NFL rosters and you will see several players from schools that you have never heard of. These small schools help grow and mature talent that may never have been developed. Personally.. if we are worried about UNCC stealing recruits.. we have SERIOUS ISSUES TO WORRY ABOUT!!!

  3. stateguy08 02/12/2007 at 9:06 AM #

    Not good news for nc state. there is already too much competition to get players. It would be great to heavily recruit NC players, but in a way I guess it was a good thing that amato had such strong ties in Florida. There’s no question in my mind that we have to recruit more outside of the state.

    In the past year, State’s and UNC’s programs were down, and App State’s and ECU’s were up. More and more recruits are going to those schools, and this adds a lot more dilema, since our biggest schools are already in Charlotte.

  4. pman27 02/12/2007 at 9:08 AM #

    A UNCC team would be interesting as Charlotte as a city has a bunch of fair-weather fans. They show up in droves for a winner, but vanish if the team is not doing well (see Bobcats and Panthers). Certainly a fledgling D-I program will not be very good for a while, so there might be an interesting dynamic of strong UNCC grad interest and typical Charlotte apathy.

  5. highonlowe 02/12/2007 at 9:13 AM #

    sorry but this arguement is kind of pathetic. Are we afraid of UNCC? IMO, a UNCC football program would compete for recruits with ECU, App, etc, not the ACC schools.

    SFN: the ‘arguement’ isn’t as pathetic as the spelling of the word ‘argument’.

  6. StateFans 02/12/2007 at 9:27 AM #

    Jesus. I’m seriously considering deleting some of these comments for stupidity and an inability to draw accurate conclusions from what is written.

    Who said a word about “fearing” anyone?

    How do you NOT understand the impact of having ANOTHER program sucking on the local tit?

    How can you truly draw a comparison to Division One football and 1-AA football?

    How can you ADD ANOTHER example of a good team in ASU as part of an argumentative position that ignores the impact of ANOTHER team in the area?

    Hypothetically, if just TWO of the Top 50 in the State choose to go to UNC-Charlotte (let’s say for personal reasons because their girl is there) then you don’t have a team that strikes fear into NC State. BUT, that equates to 10 Top 50 players on any one roster (with redshirts) and you therefore have LESS OF CHANCE for NC State to strike fear into other teams.

    It isn’t about NC State or Carolina vs Charlotte. It is about the marginal impact of ANOTHER program on the potential recruiting base of NC State and Carolina.

    If you can’t understand this, then you probably should venture to the message boards as this place is too complex for you.

  7. choppack1 02/12/2007 at 9:51 AM #

    I’m just trying to think of the states that have 6 division 1A schools in them. I know Tejas does. Indiana has 4, Florida only has 6. I’m sure California has 6 as well. Tennessee has 4, Mississippi has 3, Alabama has what 3 or 4. Michigan probably has 6.

    However, I grew up in Charlotte and I have some buddies who went to school there, so I understand their desire for it. It’s really a catch 22 – to be a more effective basketball school, they need a football program. Giving them a football program will probably hurt others in the state.

  8. roandaddy 02/12/2007 at 9:58 AM #

    You want to delete b/c we strongly disagree! Face it.. ELEVEN of these top 50 players went to USC and Clemson.. thats a bigger issue than a start up in Charlotte. You could make a better argument saying, well some player from Independence might want to play closer to mom.. that argument might hold water.
    But want would the UNCC sell be? Better academics? The chance to play in front of 5,000 people each week? To never have the pressure of having to play on tv?
    Again.. if they take two of the top 50.. it will probably be #48 and #50.. and I would guarantee no one in the top 20!
    Bottom line…most recruits view the NC schools as basketball schools (probably rightfully so).. so they go out of state. Thats the bigger hurdle vs another school.

  9. highonlowe 02/12/2007 at 10:10 AM #

    Wow. Sorry if you took offense to my spelleng and my differing opinion, but I still disagree. The addition of one more football program to state of NC, while it may or may not have a marginally negative impact on the recruiting base of NC State or Carolina, will add value to the college football product overall in the state of NC. The best way to minimize the effect of this new competition is to win. Create an elite, winning program and lil’ UNCC is no longer on the same field. With TOB, we’re on the right path.
    But this is just my opinion, it may differ from your’s.

  10. kool k 02/12/2007 at 10:41 AM #

    Ohio has a lot of Division 1A programs: Ohio St, Ohio, Miami(Oh), Kent St, Bowling Green, Akron, Toledo, Cincinatti…that’s all I can think of off the top of my head.
    Ohio St. isn’t affected by this, but that is because they are one of the top 5 traditional national powers. Now, if you take the other BCS program, Cincinatti, I am sure that the number of programs in the state takes away recruits they could get.
    I’m not trying to compare the state of the Wolfpack program with that of the Bearcats. I think they are a good comparison to what a UNC-Charlotte program would be. I do see where SFN is coming from, especially with the point about 2 recruits a year times 5 years:
    “Hypothetically, if just TWO of the Top 50 in the State choose to go to UNC-Charlotte (let’s say for personal reasons because their girl is there) then you don’t have a team that strikes fear into NC State. BUT, that equates to 10 Top 50 players on any one roster (with redshirts) and you therefore have LESS OF CHANCE for NC State to strike fear into other teams.”

  11. noah 02/12/2007 at 10:53 AM #

    I’ve said this before…but last time I checked, you got the same number of points for scoring a touchdown with a kid from Florida as you do with a kid from North Carolina.

    And I’ve never seen college and high school coaches bitch when THEIR kids sign out of state.

    The only reason for recruiting in-state is because it’s cheaper to do so. It’s easier to drive to their games to scout them, it’s cheaper to get to their houses for in-homes and a scholarship for in-state tuition is cheaper than one for an out-of-state student.

    Beyond that….who cares? The United States, east of the Mississippi should be our recruiting base.

  12. RickJ 02/12/2007 at 11:05 AM #

    “a scholarship for in-state tuition is cheaper than one for an out-of-state student.”

    Noah – Wasn’t this changed about a year ago? I believe that an out-of-state student on any kind of full scholarship is now charged at the in-state rate. I could be wrong about this but I seem to remember a big fuss about it at the time. Maybe the fuss was so big it didn’t change. Again, not just athletic scholarships but Park and Caldwell scholars from out-of-state would be the same.

  13. xcharbo 02/12/2007 at 12:05 PM #

    Come on people, Charlotte Football should not be feared. I for one cannot wait until UNC Charlotte has a football program.

    However, those dismissing their impact on other division one programs in the Carolinas should look at how they are going about creating a program. While many will point to the economic problems for Charlotte, the biggest issue is actually conference affiliation. If they solve this problem, the program has a chance to thrive.

    Charlotte will have a few things that could mix in to create a successful division one program:

    1- They are a pro town with the NFL, but love their college (ACC/SEC) sports. (Unlike Boston)
    2- The closest thing to bright lights, big city in NC/SC.
    3- They will not do it unless alums, corporate sponsors, and students agree this it the time. If so, they will invest in the program.
    4- They can look at how USF and UConn started their programs and learn from them.

    Now, suppose the Big East corrects their mistake and asks Charlotte to join. Charlotte can deliver a NC/SC TV market, fill in a gap between current BE programs, and has the potential of opening new recruiting grounds to BE schools. And, restart the UC v. UC rivalry… In that scenario, Charlotte has the potential to sit above Duke, Wake Forest (most years), and the Tar Heels. However, I think this is the only shot as its the only conference with the right foot print. They may have to sit in the CAA/Southern a few years, but it would be worth it.

  14. noah 02/12/2007 at 1:52 PM #

    “Again, not just athletic scholarships but Park and Caldwell scholars from out-of-state would be the same.”

    Assuming there is still a difference in tuition costs…aren’t Park and Caldwell endowed scholarship funds?

    I don’t believe athletic scholarships are fully endowed.

  15. RickJ 02/12/2007 at 2:04 PM #

    Noah – I think you are right about the endowment aspect of the scholarships.

    Coincidentally, in today’s N&O Under the Dome section there is an article regarding the Citizens for Higher Education PAC with the following paragraph:

    “The group flexed its muscle in 2005 to support a special legislative provision that granted in-state status to full scholarship recipients from outside North Carolina at UNC campuses. That law costs taxpayers millions each year to cover the tuition gap, but saves money for private foundations that pay for academic scholarships and booster clubs that pay for athletic scholarships.”

    This is what I was remembering.

  16. BoKnowsNCS71 02/12/2007 at 3:53 PM #

    The down side is when the legislators from the western part of the state start lobbying to make NCSU and UNX play them every year.

  17. Lunatic Fringe 02/12/2007 at 7:26 PM #

    We are talking about the same UNC-Charlotte that is only averaging about 6,000 people to their basketball games right? The sad truth is that I have probably been to more games at UNC-C than the average student/alumni in the past 2-3 years. (I went to see S. Illinios play with a buddy a couple years back)

    The actual cost of the football program is only the tip of the financial iceberg for UNC-C. I have not seen anyone even bring up the issue of Title IX. I am not an expert in the logistics of the rule, but I believe one of the major parts of the rule is that institutions should provide athletic opportunities that are proportionate to the enrollment.

    A quick look at the athletics page shows that UNC-C does not even meet that criteria now (if so than barely) given that 53% of the student population are women. What it all means is that UNC-C is going to have add 3-4 more women’s athletic programs to help account for the 85 male scholarships (for Division I) or 63 male scholarships (for Division I-AA) that it would be adding with the football program.

  18. highonlowe 02/13/2007 at 9:31 AM #

    Charlotte would have to change A-I conferences to make a money (after a beginning stint in A-II). A-10 football doesn’t exactly drawl TV viewers, and profitablity is lot more likely with TV. They’d have to join C-USA at the very least, with Big East as a long-term goal.

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