Fair Thought…Wrong Reason

As we stated in one of our biggest and best entries of the summer:

Over the next couple of weeks SFN will have some entries focusing on the tough summer that Chuck Amato is having in the national media.

Then we went on to defend Coach Amato to TSN based on the incorrect premise and (lack of) reasoning in their blog entry. (Update: NC State now has EIGHT football commitments for the February signing period. EVERY ONE is from the State of North Carolina)

Similarly, Inspin.com – whose lead headline this morning spells the word “ALWAYS” as “ALWASYS” – has run a piece on the most underachieving college football coaches in America. (Link) Inspin takes the easy way out, however, in their ‘analysis’:

Chuck Amato, North Carolina State: The short version of justifying the selection is this: The Wolfpack had three NFL first-round picks on their squad last season, yet managed to lose five games. It appears Amato’s success at NC State was directly tied to former quarterback Philip Rivers. Amato and Rivers arrived in Raleigh at the same time and compiled a 34-17 record in four years — good but not great. In the two years since Rivers’ departure, the Wolfpack are 12-11. The results on the field do not reflect the highly rated recruits that Amato has been attracting. After a No. 34 class in the Rivals.com rankings in 2002, State was No. 7 in 2003, No. 28 in 2004 and No. 27 in 2005. Recruits may have figured out they need to go elsewhere to win since Amato’s 2006 signing class was ranked only No. 54.

As long as you give proper credit to Amato’s overall achievements and definite elevation of the program in the national psyche…I believe that anyone has a case to criticize Chuck Amato for the last three years of underachieving what were relatively fair expectations. Rivers’ senior year (Tangerine Bowl) followed by struggles to get to 5-6 and 6-5 in the subsequent seasons are open for questioning.

HOWEVER, I do NOT think that the popular mantra and lazy proclamation that “State had three NFL first-round picks on their squad last season, yet managed to lose five games” (that started on ESPN on draft day) is the accurate reason to criticize.

The nature of State’s recent talent is actually explained to anyone with a brain in the players that the Wolfpack has sent to the NFL. But, that would require at least a couple of minutes of original thought. All three of State’s first round draft picks, and the large majority of State’s overall picks (Link) were defensive players!

You know…the defense that was ranked #1 in the country in 2004 despite incessantly being on the field because of offensive turnovers…and the defense that was again ranked in the Top 10 in 2006 despite another rash of offensive turnovers in the first half of the season. NC State finished the season 5-1 with the defense allowing around 9 points a game.

When you actually look at the data — how can someone criticize that State’s “talent” underachieved when our talent was almost exclusively a part of one of the nation’s top defenses of the last two years?

Don’t get me wrong, I DO agree that the OVERALL coaching staff deserves some heat/criticism for the underachievement of the last three years. BUT, if you are going to hurl such severe criticism around then you better be able to ACCURATELY analyze and explain your position. This line of (un)reasoning fails miserably.

Chuck Amato General Media NCS Football

47 Responses to Fair Thought…Wrong Reason

  1. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 07/12/2006 at 1:04 PM #

    I’m more than willing to give Amato time. Well then again, Cower only has one year left on his contract.

    I don’t think we can do better than Amato right now so I say leave him unless you KNOW you can do better. I think with time Amato will figure out how to be an effective head coach. He has done what it takes to prepare the university for the next level it is now time for him to win.

    I don’t think State fans expect the team to be a power-house year in and out but we do want to be in the running for a BCS every four or five years. That seems to be the logical next step for the program and if that happens you may even put together that magical season and play for the championship.

  2. Iam4NCSU 07/12/2006 at 1:16 PM #

    “Personally I give the largest credit to Marcus Stone. He carried the team those last 5 weeks and ended the season 5-1. Many of us, without the benefit of seeing anything that the coaches see, felt Stone was a better leader than Davis at the beginning of the season. ”

    ^How can you give the credit to Stone? Anyone can hand the ball off. Jay Davis could do that. The coaches decisions to play conservative and let our defense win games instead of letting our offense loose them is why we turned the season around. But they waited too long. Stone hasn’t proved anything except that he tucks and runs with the slightest bit of pressure. He doesn’t see the field. I hope that changes this year. Stone has all the physical capabilites, but he hasn’t shown the mental part yet.

    I agree that Amato has done great things up to this point for our football program. He has gotten us national recognition and upgraded our facilities. But that wasn’t because of coaching, it was becuase of marketing. We’ll have to wait and see if he can finish the job, or if we need someone else to actually do the coaching part.

  3. RickJ 07/12/2006 at 1:24 PM #

    ^�And I find it hard to believe our WRs will be improved this season. We lost Hall, Brian Clark and TJ Williams. I feel good about the Hall replacement (Blackmon), the Williams replacement, but who replaces Clark?�

    Trout – Great point & question – Lamart Barrett is very steady but we really need Geron James and/or John Dunlap to develop into a star. James was playing pretty well as a true freshman last year before getting hurt. Luckily, he got a redshirt. Dunlap was awfully good as a true freshman in 2004 before wrecking his knee in the off season and really struggled last year. I wish he had redshirted instead of playing. We really need a gamebreaker WR to go with our running backs.

  4. BladenWolf 07/12/2006 at 1:24 PM #

    There is more than enough FAIR criticism for the coaching staff given the underacheivment of the past couple of years. I’m still a Dick Sherridan man, but I also support Amato. Looking at the entire Amato tenure, one cannot contest that we’ve made huge strides in our football program. I need only recall the Tom Reed and Mike O’Cain eras. I think Tau837 pointed out very well the bottom line (win-loss records).

    But disecting all of the Amato seasons, one sees the obvious dropoff after the Rivers era, and now as most of us have concluded, the Chest needs to show us he was not merely hiding behind the greatest arm or riding the best defensive end in the ACC.

    This season should be exciting. I’m looking forward to it!

  5. redfred2 07/12/2006 at 1:38 PM #

    Great heading and comments above.

    Thanks for making me think back and realize once again, the 2 and 3 star high school status of a long line of players who are now in the NFL. That player development is a great accomplishment for the coaches and I know the players are very thankful for what NCSU did for them. Chuck needs to get more of that same type of talent to play smarter and work together in the future while they are still in Raleigh, but he is finding it, getting them to commit to NCSU, and improving on their skills after they arrive.

    I may sound like I’m down on Amato a lot but in the big picture but I am not. I just hate the totally ridiculous and re-occurring mistakes that seem to plague us game after game.

    Admittedly the man hasn’t show any true consistency on the field, but he has managed to make us as fans and supporters feel that we belong somewhere up there with the big dogs in the college football hierarchy and that is a definite change. His arrival also inspired some very impressive improvements to all the facilities.

    I’d hate to see him leave NC State before benefitting from all that. In my opinion he deserves at least a few more years to try to make it happen.

  6. choppack1 07/12/2006 at 2:00 PM #

    “A key point that I think all of us are drawing is that NCSU has NOT had a knack for developing offensive players recently, especially on the o-line. ”

    I don’t know if I agree w/ that…We have Koostra, Colmer and Locklear in the NFL right now. Harris is a likely NFL candidate. Morris will be trying out w/ teams. If Morris makes the league, then you’ll have 4 OLs out there – and usually at least 2 of these guys were playing together at once. Riggs didn’t make it, but had a very effective career, Paulsen’s career was kind of sidetracked by injuries and I doubt McKeon will make it…..help me out here, who are some others I’m missing off the OL? But hey, 3 guys in the NFL, right now off teams for your first 5 years isn’t exactly barren.

  7. class of 74 07/12/2006 at 2:15 PM #

    Until our offense can show it is competent week in and week out I remain skeptical of Amato as a head coach. I think he does know how to develop defensive schemes inside out, but without Chow and Rivers his offenses have not been entertaining or very successful.

  8. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 07/12/2006 at 2:22 PM #

    “How can you give the credit to Stone? Anyone can hand the ball off. Jay Davis could do that.”

    But he didn’t.

    SFN: That was because of play calling…not because of skills and things that deserve “credit”.

  9. RAWFS 07/12/2006 at 3:07 PM #

    Bladen – sorry if it sounded like I didn’t agree with you (I do) — I was just pointing out that Barry had a stellar resume and came her and did squat.

    For my money, Caldwell or Galbraith were both better OL position coaches. Both of those guys made decent lines out of bailing wire and hay.

    ““How can you give the credit to Stone? Anyone can hand the ball off. Jay Davis could do that.â€?

    We repeatedly had this discussion throughout football season (we being NC State fans in general) and the bottom line was that from the UNC game on to the Stone switch, no one respected JD’s throwing ability because he rarely made good passes on the run.

    That allowed defenses to put 8 or 9 (sometimes 10!) players into the box and stuff any run threat we had.

    It took Stone’s ability as a passer (albeit marginal but better) to force defenses to play more honestly — and thus allow for a better running attack.

    Without some balance, you will not rarely be able to consistently succeed in today’s game.

  10. Jeff 07/12/2006 at 3:26 PM #

    Personally I give the largest credit to Marcus Stone. He carried the team those last 5 weeks and ended the season 5-1.

    I don’t understand this at all. He didn’t make many mistakes…but he didn’t “carry” the team anywhere.

    Shouldn’t you have to actually DO something to get credit? Stone effectively ‘didn’t mess up”. That is nice..and worthy of mention…but nothing that merits a whole lot of praise.

    Credit should be given to our coaches for changing the offense, our defense for playing so well, and our running backs for grinding out enough yards for us to control the clock….and THEN Marcus for “not messing up”.

    The guy completed 48% of his passes and couldn’t hit the side of the barn on most throws. That is hardly a description for “carrying the team”.

    Stone managed the game plans did a good job of not making horrible mistakes to kill a team. He was put in that position to execute because of a coaching move that deserves credit.

    Jay Davis “didn’t” do that because his skills were so much greater than Stones that the coaching staff asked other things of Jay. Unfortunately for him, the team lost confidence in Jay’s ability to win. Just because Jay didn’t hand the ball off like Marcus doesn’t mean that he couldn’t. It means that he wasn’t asked to.

  11. duckmanjw 07/12/2006 at 3:32 PM #

    Please rate that article at the bottom of the page so that company or site will realize what type of clown they have writing for them!!!

    Jay Davis sucked up the field for 2 years straight and I blame Mazzone more than Chuck. Sending Mazzone packing is the smartest thing we’ve done in a while!

    I definately think Stone could have played better last year and hope he has improved greatly if we plan to move the ball and score points this year.

    But given that he was put in a unique position of coming in to replace a senior under a new OC, all in all he did pretty good.

  12. Mike 07/12/2006 at 3:43 PM #

    I said this last year when we hired Trestman. I was a huge Brown fan when Trestman was in Cleveland, and he was awful. I still say it. Trestman has had one good season in his many years, and I am not sold he is the answer for OC. More glaring is the fact that Jay/Marcus have had the coaches change year to year, never able to build on the previous year. I blame this on Chuck, and not down on Chuck, but we need to keep our assistant coaches to build a foundation.

    As I was reading down the posts, people talking about our lack of production on OL, and I too thought of 3 OL in the NFL. We have had some good players on the OL. We have had no depth on the OL however, which has killed us. In a season, injuries will occur and we need solid backups to step in and take over. Some quality is there, we just need development…and how do we get that? Oh yeah, keeping the same coaches from year to year.

  13. choppack1 07/12/2006 at 3:49 PM #

    Jeff – that’s an excellent post on Stone.

    I’d also add one thing I picked up on reading about Davis in the Tampa Bay pre-season camp. The coaches mentioned how well schooled Jay was and hinted that he might even have a shot to make the roster. I imagine that this was what our coaches dealt with the last 2 years – a kid who showed up at practice, prepared well and made solid throws in practice. OTOH, you have a QB, w/ enormous physical gifts, who you can’t release the entire package to – for whatever reason. Then your starter – the guy who is doing the right things – doesn’t always produce in games.

    The one thing that did play out was that Davis lost all of his confidence and the team appeared to lose confidence in him. Stone came in and led the team w/ a low risk game plan. (As an FYI, I give Stone credit for the VaTech win 2 years ago making him 6-1 where he was able to decide the outcome as QB.) I would say that we should have tried that 2 years ago, but I don’t know if it was possible w/ TA’s fumbling probs.

  14. BladenWolf 07/12/2006 at 3:58 PM #

    RAWFS-
    No problem; I thought I may have veered from my point.

    The “Caldwell or Galbraith were both better OL position coaches. Both of those guys made decent lines out of bailing wire and hay” quote was good.

    You also make a good point about the rest of the team losing faith in Davis a bit during last season. His throws were as ugly as Billy Kilmers and very seldom met the intended target. Stone was a hair better as far as passing, but the problem (as I have stated before) was the weak offensive line. It’s pretty hard to throw an accurate and crisp pass when you’re running for your life even before you take three steps back.

    Now back to coaching: This weakness was identified by the staff and that’s why I believe we went to a more conservative offense playbook, not necessarily due to the varying QB skill sets. It’s like the chicken and the egg thing. You have to have the time to throw before you can pass judgement on your QB’s passing skills. I may be wrong, but I didn’t see a whole lot of difference (skill level) between the two, with the exception of footwork and self-confidence. Davis seemed to play with his head down while Stone at least tried to get it down field on occasion.

  15. StateFans 07/12/2006 at 4:01 PM #

    May we just interject how much we appreciate the manner and nature of the way that you all have conducted this conversation.

    Fantastic points.

    Intelligent thought.

    Expressed appropriately.

    Thanks so much!

  16. BladenWolf 07/12/2006 at 4:11 PM #

    …and I realize we’ve place a few O Linemen in the NFL. BUT… they are not dominant players at their position, well… Sean Locklear may be an exception as he continues to improve at Seattle, but the rest mentioned are simply average. And when compared to the D-line players…

    But I have to agree with Class of 74 regarding how Amato has dealt with this phase of the game: “without Chow and Rivers his offenses have not been entertaining or very successful.”

    Very true.

  17. Tau837 07/12/2006 at 5:52 PM #

    Regarding this: “without Chow and Rivers his offenses have not been entertaining or very successful.�

    Chow was at N.C. State for one year. I thought he was great and wish he was still here, but our offense was just fine for the first three years after he left, with two different OCs.

    I’m sure that was due in large part to Rivers, but also to varying degrees to some of our other offensive players like T.A., Hall, Cotchery, etc. It is not only at QB that our offensive talent has fallen off a bit from those years–I think it is at every offensive position except RB.

    I’m sure good coaching played a role as well, even after Chow. The thing is, while Rivers was able to excel with 3 OCs in 4 years, most QBs probably can’t do that. So I think there are two things that must be done to right the ship:

    1. Get and keep good offensive coaches. Hopefully Trestman will prove to be one and will stay.

    2. Get better offensive talent. While I really like and respect our players, I can’t see our offense improving without a new QB, and as mentioned above without a very good WR emerging. And better OL play would help a lot, as that would allow our RB talent to make a bigger impact.
    Anyway, a modified version of the quoted statement that is more accurate is “without Rivers his offenses have not been entertaining or very successful.�

  18. Wulfpack 07/12/2006 at 10:28 PM #

    “Sure, I want more… but I have low expectations this year, so I’m looking at at least 2 more years before passing judgement.”

    If we are mediocre for the next two seasons, why in the world should Amato be allowed to stick around? Do we honestly believe we can’t find someone better if this is the case (as most publications are predicting this year)???

    Bottom line: the program has NOT improved in recent years. Watching this team last year was like pulling teeth. I’m willing to give Chucky one last shot at it. But the fact of the matter to me is that we have regressed, and regressed in a very big way.

  19. choppack1 07/13/2006 at 8:24 AM #

    Aside from Rivers – having that good OL and a healthy TA made us hard to beat. Can someone help me out here – I’m thinking that our OL in the Gator Bowl year was Koostra, Colmer, Riggs (center??), and Locklear. I think Paulsen played some too. In addition, you had Berton – the best blocking TE I’ve ever seen wear the State uniform. Cotchterty and Pete were both good blocking WRs too. It’s no wonder we were able to run effectively. Think about that – you’ve got 11 starters – and if my calculations were right 6 of those guys are already in the NFL – another was just drafted (TJ played some that year too.)

    I do think we have 2 future NFL’ers on this line in Harris and Crouch. Hopefully, we’ll see the return of a solid and consistent running game. If we can do that, we can have a good year.

  20. ncsuang 07/13/2006 at 12:55 PM #

    Don’t get me wrong, I love NC State football but here are a little perspective from what sports writers are looking at.

    Many have written about how we finished 5-1, that’s great and I hope we continue the trend into this fall. But if you look at the talent we have and the games we won it doesn’t paint the prettiest picture. Our non-conference schedule for the past few years has been shameful. And even with the gimme wins we beat Eastern Kentucky… well its Eastern Kentucky, we beat G. Tech in a game we easily could have lost because Calvin Johnson only misses that catch once in a blue moon, SMU… thank heavens we had Andre Brown, FSU…at last a decent win, MTSU…once again our power schedule, and Maryland who have been struggling just as bad as us the past few years.

    So I guess my point is if you look at this year’s schedule we should beat our non-conference teams of App St, Akron, SMU, and ECU. So if we win two conference games, possibly Wake, Carolina, UVA, or Maryland and we make it to another crap.com bowl should Amato stick around? We’re settling for mediocrity and not contending for a conference title.

  21. RickJ 07/13/2006 at 1:39 PM #

    ^”we beat G. Tech in a game we easily could have lost because Calvin Johnson only misses that catch once in a blue moon”

    This is a pet peeve for me – I have read & heard this so many times. We certainly could have lost this game but we won it because of an absolutely great play by Marcus Hudson & Garland Heath.

  22. class of 74 07/14/2006 at 6:39 AM #

    Re: my comments about Chow and Rivers. I will always believe Chow’s teaching set the foundation for Rivers and his success here at State. Phillip took that teaching, and with his smarts and talent, had a fantastic career. And his final year, although not his best, was pretty good even with Mazzone as OC. Finally, I don’t think Trestman is in Chow’s class as a QB coach or OC but maybe he will prove me wrong, I certainly hope so!

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