“Barnes likely sees NC State as Clemson”

General NCS Basketball Quotes of Note53

Wow. Right when I think that Pack Pride couldn’t get any worse, they do. The agenda and the craziness over there is so bad that old JB34 committed internet suicide this weekend. (I didn’t want to be too tempted to burn the place down after Rick Barnes beat the hell out of our program).

Today, you can get a good view of the ‘subtle’ agenda by looking at the articles that have been chosen to be featured in their webrun. Honestly…the fact that those morons would use one of their two “featured stories” on a poorly-written article about the 1974 team TODAY, after our beating to Texas last night is sickening. Riiiiight. Just close your eyes and pretend it didn’t happen. Especially in light of Tommy Burleson’s comments last week and the fact that the losers in the current administration couldn’t dream of that type of success in their wildest, drug-induced hallucinations.

This piece from San Antonio will hurt any Wolfpacker in the world. But, folks…we get what we deserve. We’ve let losers and idiots run our Athletics Department for years and we continue to experience the results of inadequate leadership and poor decision making. Ten years of the “great Herb Sendek” era had created a national perspective where NC State is viewed like Clemson. Unbelievable. Congratulations to the others in college athletics smart enough and motivated enough to create situations where they succeed —–

Buck Harvey: Among friends, Barnes remains what he’s been
San Antonio Express-News

DALLAS — Rick Barnes hasn’t had his Mack moment yet. If he wins another game, he will get his chance in Atlanta. Duke is to basketball what USC was in football.

But Barnes did something else Sunday. He remained in the NCAA tournament. He remained a notch above Billy Gillispie, the rising star at A&M, and he remained at worst on the same plane as Bill Self. He remained the builder of a prominent program, with another top-level recruit scheduled to arrive next fall, and he remained the envy of others.

He remained what he has been — and what North Carolina State wants for its own.

Barnes wouldn’t have fallen too far had he been beaten Sunday. Roy Williams lost to an underdog, after all, and most think he still can coach. As for other comparisons to Mack Brown, who was in the arena Sunday: Barnes has yet to endure the lows that Brown endured before last season…

…Again impressed, this time with an up-close view, were North Carolina State fans. They like what they see in Barnes, a North Carolina native, while questioning their own coach, Herb Sendek. Sendek’s job status has become an annual issue, and it was in Dallas. His players wanted to win for him. And to his defense came an old friend, Barnes. He once hired Sendek as an assistant at Providence, and they’ve stayed close.

Little wonder Barnes defended Sendek this weekend.

“First of all,” Barnes said, “Herb has an incredible personality, if you get to know him. I don’t think there’s a finer coach anywhere. I look at the job he’s done at N.C. State, I think it’s remarkable, really. I think he’s one of the most underrated coaches.”

Barnes tried to make the same pitch Sunday evening. Even after the Wolfpack shot only 26 percent in the second half — launching a series of half-hearted 3-pointers — Barnes still saw the best in his friend. “We beat a well-coached team,” he said.

Sendek might be capable. He might be suffering as many in his profession do, stuck with an unfair tag. But perception matters to both alumni and recruits, and it’s something that Brown has fought through. For Sendek, the perception is strong. That’s why a Raleigh newspaper story said this past week that N.C. State fans “want, well, Barnes.”

There was a time when the N.C. State job came with considerably more prestige than any in the state of Texas. And maybe that’s why people there think Barnes would be a logical replacement. Surely he would rather coach the Wolfpack, right?

Barnes likely sees North Carolina State as he once did Clemson. It’s the ACC, all right, but does the prestige match the reality? Competing against North Carolina and Duke is daunting, and keeping up with Wake Forest isn’t easy, either.

Texas fans today will celebrate those words. They’ve never felt better about their program or better about their coach. Especially with another Sweet 16 appearance this week.

General NCS Basketball Quotes of Note

53 Responses to “Barnes likely sees NC State as Clemson”

  1. Cardiac95 03/20/2006 at 12:47 PM #

    Re: Barnes wouldn’t take it because Herb was a former assistant…

    That didn’t exactly stop Roy Williams, now did it?

  2. Mr O 03/20/2006 at 1:01 PM #

    Roy to UNC isn’t a fair comparison. Would Roy have taken over for Eddie Fogler at South Carolina? That is a closer comparison because Roy would have been leaving one of the top programs in the country. UNC actually gives him an even better chance to win so it was really a no brainer. NC State doesn’t give Rick Barnes a better chance to win plus Rick never coached or played at NC State either.

  3. GAWolf 03/20/2006 at 1:01 PM #

    Mr. O… unmeasurable rewards in the competitive sense. As in the rewards that you can’t measure such as salary, shoe contracts, etc. I agree with you that if we want a big time coach, we’re going to have to pay for it. Sorry for the confusion.

    That brings me to another point I’ve made to friends while discussing this in person. Is it possible that Fowler loves Herb so much because Fowler knows Herb is underpaid? The mediocre results equal the mediocre pay, and that’s good enough for Fowler as long as FOWLER can boast that we’re one of the top 10 money producing basketball programs in the nation. If Fowler’s athletic department was paying for a bigtime coach, we would probably not be in the top 10 after all the bills were paid. That bolsters Fowler’s resume considerably… and all the while our financially devoted fans aren’t getting anything close (Top 10?) for what they’re paying for.

  4. Mr O 03/20/2006 at 1:08 PM #

    Gawolf: By those standards, then our job isn’t potentially anymore rewarding than most other ACC jobs. I understand what you are saying and certainly that is one way to sell our job. But essentially, you are taking what is so difficult about our job and trying to appeal to the competitive nature of potential coaches.

    I agree that it would work for younger coaches. But I don’t see it happening for an established coach like Rick Barnes. Again, that isn’t a bad thing either IMO. There are a lot of future Rick Barnes types out there, but they haven’t reached that level yet because they haven’t had the opportunity. Herb Sendek has certainly had the opportunity already.

  5. choppack 03/20/2006 at 1:39 PM #

    To touch on O’s point regarding the established, successful coaches.

    Here’s basically what he’s saying – if a coach has established his program as one of the Top 15 in the country, and has done so over a sustained amount of time and they are able to get Top 15 talent over a sustained amount of time, State would be considered a lateral move at best. For these coaches, taking this job represents a significant risk – and those risks aren’t realized in their current situation – but the reward is the same: conference and national titles.

    In order to get these kind of coaches, it will probably take more than money. An emotional attachment to the region or school helps – Rick Barnes is from NC, so this is probably why some of entertain what others on the national scale or from elsewhere consider a pipe dream. A bad relationship w/ an AD and/or chancellor would be advantagous as well.

  6. Mr O 03/20/2006 at 2:40 PM #

    Thanks Choppack. That is exactly what I was trying to say. Coaches at smaller programs have nothing to lose by going to NC State. A coach like Barnes would be leaving one of the top athletic programs in the nation with an endless supply of money. He has little competition in his home state which is also has one of the largest populations of any State in the country. Essentially, he has one of the best jobs in the country.

    We have a great job to offer as well, but unless we offer him $2.5 million+ I don’t see him giving us any serious consideration. I am not sure what he makes now, but I would guess it is somewhere between 1 and 1.5 million.

    Maybe Tubby Smith is ready to leave UK this year? UVa made a run at him last year for 2.5 million.

  7. SaccoV 03/20/2006 at 2:47 PM #

    GAwolf has an interesting point but the problem with that is Duke, Wake Forest and UCONN (three schools much smaller than NCSU) have spent more money for basketball and had better results recently than NC State. If the money is there (via TV or ticket sales or whatever) the coach should be ready and willing to come coach here. Although I agree that getting a high profile coach is going to be tough, getting a better coach than Sendek is a distinct possibility as the coaching landscape has been given a few more coaches to at least interview for big-time coaching positions (Brownell, Larranaga, etc). These other coaches should get serious attention from big schools for openings.

  8. GAWolf 03/20/2006 at 2:55 PM #

    That is where you and I disagree Mr. O. I understand your logic completely. However, I think an established coach (as defined by choppack) in another “BCS” conference who longed for the ultimate professional challenge would consider no place in the country to be equal to a job on Tobacco Road. The intangibles of coaching in the “mecca” of College Hoops seem to me would outweigh any concern of having to compete against the best.

    Basically, what you call “what’s so difficult” about our coaching job is exactly what I see as being “what’s so great” about it. I think anyone who is at his core a competitor would agree with me. I understand your logical approach, and I appreciate your point as it makes total sense to me. However, competitive people… truly competitive people… are not always creatures of logic. Sendek is a creature of logic. His approach to basketball is nothing short of how I approached a bad MA 241 equation… something I never did understand. For that reason, math never appealed to me. Confrontation, competitiveness, firey speaches, goals bigger than I can probably ever tackle appeal to me. Hence, I traded the engineering office for a courtroom. I’m a competitor and I feel at home there.

    It would have been much more logical for me not to borrow the $100,000 to go to law school and stay in the cozy office of the engineering department of my hometown papermill. However, being a truly competitive person, I received no sense of self-worth sitting in that very logical, very safe, very reasonably paying office. Looking back, borrowing that money was downright stupid… but at least I took the chance. Logically speaking, I’ll never be a Johnny Edwards or Johnny Cochran. I’m no idiot. I knew the chances of getting truly wealthy practicing law were somewhere between slim and none. However, I knew there was a chance… an opportunity… to make more than I ever would sitting in that office at the papermill fixing problems with the computer system on the paper machine.

    The point being… great coaches aren’t really logical creatures. Sure. There must be at least some level of understanding the logic of the sport, the necessary tools to succeed at it, and the means to obtain and utilize those tools. However, the true measure of most of the great coaches has nothing to do with logic. It has everything to do with getting normal people to do something logical people say they can’t.

    If Sendek is no longer our basketball coach in the coming weeks… I hope we find someone who doesn’t look at the “logical” reasons why State isn’t a good job. Instead, I hope that the candidates look at our coaching position as the ultimate challenge… something they’re willing and even excited to accept…. regardless of where they’re coming from. We all know it’s where you’re going that counts, and hopefully we’ll get a coach who is coming here to bust the supposed logical reasoning that NC State can never compete with Duke and UNC in basketball.

    What do you call the guy that takes over a decent, not great, NC State basketball program and turns it into a national contender right in the backyard of the best two programs of the last two decades? A GREAT basketball coach. While Rick Barnes, for example, has no doubt solidified his place on the list of “Good Basketball Coaches,” I’m not sold that he’s on the list of Greatest Basketball Coaches of All Time. I’m not sure that he could ever do that at UT. I’m positive if he came to State and took this program over the hump and restored the conference’s best rivalry to the State/Carolina game by winning some big ones, he’d be considered one of the greats.

    I guess it just all depends on what one wants out of life… logically he shouldn’t leave UT for Raleigh. It’s a gamble. He’d have tougher competition. He’d likely have to beat his way out from under the shadow that is the DUKE/UNC hype machine. It’s all pretty crazy to take on, actually. Why would anyone want to ever do that when they have a cozy position in Austin that pays well? Perhaps the only difference is that it’s… well… in Austin, TX… the mecca of college… football.

    Quite frankly, I think that sort of “logic” is for losers. And unfortunately, I think it’s the “logic” that our current athletic administration has bought into hook, line and sinker.

  9. VaWolf82 03/20/2006 at 3:15 PM #

    Here’s the logic that I think that State’s adminstration is using:

    Wins/Dollar…Herb wins “enough” and is cheaper than going after one of the proven, successful coaches.

    Going after the next rising mid-major coach is risky. For every “K”, there are proabably a hundred “Gillens”. Land a “Gillen”, then you have to buy out his contract….and pay for the next gamble as well….which costs money.

    Let’s face it….State is stuck on pretty good.

  10. choppack 03/20/2006 at 3:32 PM #

    GA Wolf – that’s a nice manifesto, but it’s based on the assumption that any job in the ACC is better than a job in the Big 12, the Big East, the Big 10 or the Pac 10. I don’t think that’s the case – while the ACC is better year in and year out, the Clemson job isn’t as good as the Michigan State job – or as Rick is proving -even the Texas job. I do think we’re an elite program – but I also think that this job, to an established coach in one of the BCS conferences – loses it’s luster. If you really believe what you are saying – we’re stupid to go after Rick Barnes. The man we should really be pushing for is Jim Calhoun.

    Whether you’re at Texas, UConn, Syracuse, UCLA, Michigan State, Kentucky, Duke, Carolina or State – ulimately, you’re competing for the same thing. In order to improve upon Herb’s results, Rick will have to accomplish at State what he’s accomplishing at Texas vs. teams chalked full of McDs and coaches that have combined for a lot more national championships and final 4s than he currently faces. (In other words, he’ll have to do a better job here than he’s doing at Texas.) That’s why $$ and the “competitor factor” is not enough. You need someone who really wants to be here for other reasons. Does this mean that you don’t ask a Rick Barnes if he’s interested? Heck no. You find out if he’s interested, because he may have other reasons. Unfortunately though, college basketball doesn’t have a lot Larry Brownesque vagabonds he just build championship winners and move on to the next team.

  11. class of '74 03/20/2006 at 3:33 PM #

    Never underestimate the egos of top tier coaches. If they think NCSU offers them the chance to be the next K or Dean then they will be interested. If we give them the idea we only want to talk about being great and not give them the support needed to compete then they will not be interested. We offer one of the top 15 jobs in the country so we should not worry about who will be interested we should focus on who we want of those interested. But first someone has to take Herb.

  12. wopacker1980 03/20/2006 at 3:41 PM #

    I’m sorry.
    I’m sorry for so many of you Wolfpack fans who were brought into the fold after the 1990 season which effectively ended the Valvano era with the departure of Monroe and Chris Corchiani.
    You don’t know what you missed.
    You don’t know what its like to watch David Thompson fly above the rim (quite a feat at that time). Or watch Tommy Burleson (whose sister roomed with my wife) banging inside with Len Elmore, or to see Kenny Carr, or Hawkeye Whittney, or see Rodney Monroe drain 48 points to erase a 20 point deficit, or to watch the “bookend guards” from DeMatha High perhaps the greatest back court in ACC history and the biggest recruiting coup of 1978. THAT was real poetry in motion. Or to see ‘fire and ice’ who were almost equal to the former, maybe even better.
    You don’t know what its like to camp out for a couple days to get one of the 200 sideline seats at Reynolds or what it was like when “the Grand Ole Lady” was rockin’. Hard to believe that there was a day when playing the Wolfpack at Wm. Neal Reynolds Coliseum was feared as much as playing Duke at Cameron. State was just as dominating, the crowd just as tough.
    In 1987, the year of State’s last ACC Championship, State had 10 ACC’s, UNC had 10, Duke had 7. State had two NCAA’s, UNC had 2, Duke 0. Since then? State has the same as they did in 1987 while UNC has 15 ACC’s and 4 NCAA’s. Duke has gained 16ACC’s and 3 NCAA’s.
    What a shame.

    No, you guys have been convinced that simply making the dance is good enough. You’ve been told that there certainly is no reason to think that you can compete with the likes of Coach K or Roywonderboy. Better just keep what you got than risk reverting to the Les Robinson era.
    Well I’m here to tell you, Everette Case is rolling over in his grave!
    You certainly will never grab the brass ring if you don’t go for it!

    You know, I just can’t accept that the Wolfpack Nation just needs to wait for 10 years for Roywonderboy and Coach K to retire.
    You know where the ‘Silver Fox’, Everette Case came from? He came from a high school. That’s right, a high school! You know what he did when he arrived? He won 6 straight Southern Conference Championships plus 4 more ACC Championships in a row. That’s 10 conference titles in a row.
    I’m not suggesting that we hire a high school coach but I am suggesting that we hire a fiery energetic coach who can get our program rolling.
    Is there a chance we could do worse than Herb? Sure. For a time.
    Is there a chance that there is the next Everette Case, Press Maravich, Norm Sloan, or Jimmy Valvano out there? There certainly is!

    I say let’s ere to the side of being proactive instead of settling for ‘whatever’.

  13. Mr O 03/20/2006 at 3:43 PM #

    Gawolf: Can you name a few examples of “great” coaches making comparable job moves like going from Texas to NC State?

    In the entire history of the ACC, I can’t think of a single example of a coach having made a move similar to the one you are describing. It just hasn’t happened.

    There will be plenty of coaches looking to dispell the myth of us not being able to compete with Duke and UNC. It is just unlikely that those coaches will be guys on the level of Rick Barnes, Bill Self, Tom Izzo, Jay Wright, etc….Those guys are in positions where logic will definitely play a role in them leaving their current jobs.

    We could have hired Izzo as a MSU assistant, Wright prior to getting the job at Nova, or Barnes away from Clemson. But IMO it is too late for those specific guys and guys that currently have top 15 type of jobs. We would be looking for guys like these three who have yet to get their shot at a school like NC State.

    You and I are looking for te same type of coach. We just disagree on where he would come from.

  14. GAWolf 03/20/2006 at 3:51 PM #

    Choppack, I think you’re looking at my point way too narrowly. I agree with you that we’re going to need someone who has other interests in the position than JUST money because we no doubt present a daunting task. However, I disagree with the concept that a coach is not going to come here because of the nature of the challenge. If a coach is hesitant to come here to compete against K and Roy, we don’t need him. It’s the Fowler-esque attitude of “well who IS supposed to compete with K and Roy” that’s festering the miserable results we’re seeing now. We pick the right guy and he’ll jump all over the chance to go nose-to-nose with these guys on the court, in the media, and on the recruiting trail.

  15. choppack 03/20/2006 at 3:54 PM #

    “Never underestimate the egos of top tier coaches. If they think NCSU offers them the chance to be the next K or Dean then they will be interested.”

    So what programs were Dean and Coach K running when they took their last hc coaching jobs?

  16. GAWolf 03/20/2006 at 4:00 PM #

    Mr.O… I don’t care where he comes from, and perhaps you’re right. However, it’s damn sure worth trying to get the best of the best. I’d hate to think we’d set our sights too low and miss out on an opportunity. To be honest, Barnes’ quotes from this past weekend don’t give me any reason to believe he’d be interested in the job. However, my sole point of all that was simply that if the coach is concerned about the tough job in going up against K and Roy, I don’t want him. If it takes an unproven coach to replace Herb (assuming that’s all that’s interested), then at these stage I say let’s take a shot. Considering the status of things now, we have nothing to lose. However, I’d be very suprised if there aren’t at least a few “proven coaches” looking towards Raleigh with interest right now.

  17. choppack 03/20/2006 at 4:11 PM #

    “However, I’d be very suprised if there aren’t at least a few “proven coachesâ€? looking towards Raleigh with interest right now.”

    Who do you consider those coaches to be? Excluding the titans – K, Roy, Boeheim, Calhoun, and Izzo – who else do you consider elite?

    I mean, if I was AD, I’d approach Barnes, Few, Belein, Montgomery, and Donovan. I don’t think those guys fear Coach K or Roy – they just may feel they are in a better position to build a national power in their current positions ( this, of course, excludes Montgomery and maybe even Belein.)

  18. VTPACKFAN 03/20/2006 at 4:20 PM #

    “In the entire history of the ACC, I can’t think of a single example of a coach having made a move similar to the one you are describing. It just hasn’t happened”.

    First Frank McGuire left the St. Johns to come to UNC, then jumped ship to USC. Both moves could not be characterized as lateral.

  19. class of '74 03/20/2006 at 4:35 PM #

    Let me remind you guys we offered the job to a high school coach in 1980! That’s right Morgan Wooten from DeMatha was offered the job prior to Jimmy V accepting the job.

    ^^^^ Dean’s only head job was at UNC. K’s only head job other than Duke was Army.

  20. Mike 03/20/2006 at 4:38 PM #

    Thanks Wopacker1980 for some great memories. Shame that is what they are – memories. Looks like all my kids will ever know too. Looks like it might be all we old guys have too.

  21. choppack 03/20/2006 at 4:57 PM #

    Mike – those memories aren’t contingent on us getting an established coach. They are contingent upon us picking the right one.

    I’m w/ O on this one, there aren’t a lot of uber-successful college coaches who jump from big-time job to big-time job.

  22. Mr O 03/20/2006 at 5:04 PM #

    VTPackfan: That is one example in 53 years. But good example nonetheless.

    Great coaches can come from a lot of different places, so I don’t fear losing Herb Sendek at all. I can’t think of anything more exciting to go through at this point then a coaching change.

  23. SaccoV 03/20/2006 at 8:44 PM #

    Although ACC history might not be chocked full of great, successful coaches coming to the conference from big-time established programs, there are lots of instances of assistant coaches taking the reigns of another team and doing outstandingly well (Bubas being the most notable cash). Other coaches have succeeded in the this conference despite not being so successfull at other big jobs (Gary Williams is the best example here coming from Ohio State). Lefty Drizzell took Davidson to a NUMBER ONE RANKING and had wonderful success at Maryland. Cremins was a player at South Carolina before taking Appalachain State to the tournament and Georgia Tech to national prominence. K from Army, V from Iona, McGuire from St. Johns, Smith from Kansas, Case from Indiana high school. Regardless, there is a great coach out there. Hell, he might be coaching at the YMCA in Hattiesburg, MS. Either way, find the bastard and give him a job.

  24. class of '74 03/21/2006 at 6:43 AM #

    ^The salient point being we are not losing ANYTHING if Herb leaves and we get someone who is not the high profile guy! Just being at NCSU and in the ACC makes you a high profile guy! Just get someone with purpose, pride and passion and the rest will fall in place.

  25. choppack 03/21/2006 at 8:36 AM #

    Class of 74 – Are you confident in the leadership of Fowler, Oblinger, et al and their ability to select a great coach?

    And I don’t think we’re at a point where firing Sendek guarantees success or improvement either.

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