Bsketball Fever has officially begun

For anyone that did not see the games last night, you missed some incredible basketball. The Zags beat Michgan St in a triple overtime thriller, Texas overcame Iowa and UConn defeated Arizona. All three games were enjoyable to watch but the best was the Gonzaga victory as Adam Morrison (43 points) hit clutch shot after clutch shot in a tireless effort. The high level of play is something you expect to see in March not November and even my wife (who will suffer through NCSU games with me but is not really a basketball fan) was enthralled in the game.

While watching these games several things crossed my mind…

(1) All six of these teams gained valuable exposure from these high profile contests. How many recruits saw Ager hitting the last second shot in regulation to send the MSU game into the first OT? Losing a big game like this is better for the RPI than beating up a cupcake

(2) Besides exposure, these teams learned things in this game that will prepare them for tournament success. After MSU freshmen Goran Suton missed a wide open layup with 4 seconds left, the camera showed Tom Izzo talking (not yelling) to the young man. This was a learning opportunity that was invaluable for the freshman and Izzo handled it masterfully. All of the players have now played in a high pressure situation and will learn and get better because of this opportunity.

(3) The offenses for both Gonzaga and MSU are already hitting on all cylinders. Some teams seem to struggle offensively this early in the year but the Zags and the Spartans are hitting on all cylinders. The announcers said that MSU runs a very complicated system of set plays and yet they did not seem to struggle.

(4) Both the Texas/Iowa and the Gonzaga/MSU games highlight the importance of end of game management. To win in the big games coaches must call the right plays and the players must be prepared to produce.

The question I have is why can’t NCSU seem to get into these high profile tournaments? There are 16 teams in the NIT, 8 teams in the Maui and 8 teams in the Alaskan shootout (which seems to have lost alot of its luster). Over ten years that is 320 opportunities, even if you assume each tournament will only take one ACC team a year, that is 30 opporunities we have missed. If NCSU expressed true interest in playing these tournaments, I find it hard to believe we would not be able to garner one of those spots. It is truly a story of wasted opportunities.

About Rick

1992 and 2002 graduate from NCSU. Born and raised an NCSU fan. I remember the good ol' days and they weren't in the last 20 years.

General NCS Basketball

24 Responses to Bsketball Fever has officially begun

  1. Jeff 11/23/2005 at 10:35 AM #

    You obviously don’t realize how much all of the other schools out there are scared to play us!! It wouldn’t surprise me if these tournaments had teams threatening to withdraw if NC State was included just out of sheer fear.

    I think your point #4 is very key, “(4) Both the Texas/Iowa and the Gonzaga/MSU games highlight the importance of end of game management. To win in the big games coaches must call the right plays and the players must be prepared to produce.

    And to know what to call in crunch time requires that you have been through some crunch times with your current set of players. Not getting battle-tested until January usually costs us at least a couple of wins in conference play when the games get tight.

    But..hey!! We’ve made the NCAA Tournament four years in a row. What else can you want!? What else is there?

  2. BJD95 11/23/2005 at 10:53 AM #

    I am really beating myself up for missing the Zags/Spartans game. Just the SportsCenter highlights were thrilling.

  3. Mr. O 11/23/2005 at 10:58 AM #

    It is mindboggling why we haven’t been in one of these tournaments yet. There doesn’t seem to be any drawback. The only thing that I can think of is that Herb Sendek simply doesn’t believe in playing in these events.

  4. Bigor 11/23/2005 at 11:10 AM #

    Weren’t we supposed to play in the preseason NIT but because Boston College is now in the ACC and they are in it also, we were bumped.

  5. Jeff 11/23/2005 at 11:14 AM #

    ^ LOL!! Yep!! In year eleven we finally (supposedly) wanted to play in the Preseason NIT and…shucks….Boston College gets to do it instead of us. Discussed here.

    Mr. O, you KNOW that our absence in these tourneys is not that Herb does not believe in them…it is that Herb Sendek really believes in making the NCAA Tournament, and playing in these tournaments would keep us out of the NCAA.

    Because of our embarassing & totally unacceptable performance against any OOC team played outside of Raleigh that has an ounce of decency, playing in such a tournament is a huge risk. See the record if you don’t believe it.

    Conversely, we pad our record with ‘extra’ games allowed over the NCAA’s cap of total games with the BCA, CoSida, etc.

    Over the last 4 years, if you removed the 3 sure wins from our record that we have given ourselves in these weak tournaments, and then replaced them with losses that we would have generated in tougher tournaments, then an easy case is made that we would have made ONE NCAA Tournament in the last four years instead of four.

    That is the reasoning behind the philosophy…

  6. Trout 11/23/2005 at 11:15 AM #

    “Not getting battle-tested until January usually costs us at least a couple of wins in conference play when the games get tight.”

    But I think playing Notre Dame in Indy, Iowa@ Iowa, Alabama@Bama and GW in Raleigh will certainly be 4 “battle testing” games. 3 of those 4 teams are ranked, and ND under Mike Brey is always a good team, usually NCAA quality.

    “But..hey!! We’ve made the NCAA Tournament four years in a row. What else can you want!? What else is there?”

    There is a lot more. Simply making the tournament is the baseline.

    The Zags/MSU game was incredible. One of the best November games I’ve ever seen. The star for Gonzaga reminds me a lot of 2 people: Larry Bird, or any number of porn stars from the 70s. 🙂

  7. Jeff 11/23/2005 at 11:20 AM #

    Unfortunately, Trout…there is NOT a lot more to many Wolfpackers. Making the Tournament is THE PRIMARY CRITERIA of success for far too many people.

    I agree with you about the improved road schedule THIS YEAR to help us get battle tested. That is 1 out of 10 years. I guess we’ll reconnect on the issue in 2015 and see if we are batting .500 yet.

  8. Trout 11/23/2005 at 11:23 AM #

    Next year we have Alabama in Raleigh, a Big 10 team in Raleigh, and we travel to WVU, Seton Hall and to DC to play GW.

  9. Rick 11/23/2005 at 11:28 AM #

    “Weren’t we supposed to play in the preseason NIT but because Boston College is now in the ACC and they are in it also, we were bumped.”

    I can hear the conversation now
    NIT committiee “Lee I got some bad news, we have two ACC teams scheduled for the NIT next year, both you and Boston Co…”
    LF “We are glad to pull out”
    NIT “llege. And one of you cannot… wait, what did you say?”
    LF “We will happily pull out. That way we can bilk our season ticket holders of more money and get three sure wins. Thanks”

  10. Trout 11/23/2005 at 1:10 PM #

    Because I know statefansnation enjoys research, I present “The last time NC State played in the:”

    Dec 17, 2002: Jimmy V Classic. Lost to Gonzaga

    Nov 22, 2000: Tip Off Classic. Lost to Fresno State

    Dec 21-23, 1998: Peurto Rico Classic. Beat Middle Tenn State, lost to Ohio State, beat Oklahoma

    Nov 11-12, 1997: Coaches vs Cancer Classic. Beat Georgia, lost to Princeton

    Dec 7-9, 1995: Rainbow Classic-Honolulu. Lost to UMASS, beat Missouri, lost to Illinois

    Nov 24-27, 1993: Great Alaska Shootout. Lost to Weber State, lost to Wisc-Green Bay, beat Hawaii

    Dec 29-30, 1991: Chaminade Classic-Honolulu. Beat Chaminade, lost to Western Kentucky.

    Nov. 1989: Big Apple NIT. Beat Richmond, lost to Depaul.

  11. Mr. O 11/23/2005 at 1:15 PM #

    JB34: I think you and I both agree that losing to quality competition doesn’t hurt our chances of making the NCAA tournament. Just like beating cupcakes doesn’t help our chances. I know you believe total wins helps at some level, but I just don’t buy that theory and it is OK to disagree on that issue.

    However, I honestly think that Herb doesn’t believe in these types of tournaments to develop his team. He has stepped up the competition this year with Alabama and Notre Dame thrown in with the Big 10 challenge on the road.

    We have 3 top 25 OOC opponents on our schedule with 2 on the road and 1 at home. I think that is a sufficient schedule. Though it would be nice to add some excitement for the fans and players to get us in one of these pre-season tourneys.

  12. Jeff 11/23/2005 at 2:02 PM #

    Trout…those are some ‘great’ flashbacks (in some cases).

    The numbers tell an interesting story — In every year that Herb chose to play in a real early-season tournament (“Jimmy V Classic” and “Tip Off Classic” do not count since they are no different than any other single game except they have a name attached to them) he failed to reach the NCAA Tournament.

    Definitely supports my point. I wouldn’t play in these things, either! In 9 years, Herb has played in 9 ACC Tournaments, 4 NITs, 4 NCAAs, and 2 real pre-season tournaments….and he has won NONE of them. 19 Tournaments. No Titles. I’d avoid them as well.

    MrO, I see your points. I also think that we have a ‘sufficient’ overall OOC schedule this year. I also wish that we respected and valued the season ticket holders who support the program enough to reward them with some kind of interesting match up at home. At least 2 or 3 per decade.

  13. Mr. O 11/23/2005 at 3:45 PM #

    Jeff: In my mind, I see a big difference in the last 4 years so I don’t continually hold the first 5 years against Herb Sendek. It just doesn’t make sense considering where our program was coming from IMO.

    We have played BC and Syracuse at home. We had a Sweet 16 team in W Va last year. We have Alabama next season. Again, after viewing schedules of other ACC programs I don’t know that we have much ground to stand on in terms of complaining about our scheduling.

    I saw Wake fans complaining about their schedule today as a matter of fact.

  14. newswolf 11/23/2005 at 9:25 PM #

    I have really enjoyed watching the Maui tournament the last couple of years. You have 3 NCAA Tournament level games in 3 days, and the kids get to go to Hawaii. I think it would be tough for us to ever crack that field. You know they want Duke and UNC as much as possible, then they will toss in Tech and MD

  15. Rick 11/23/2005 at 11:30 PM #

    “Jeff: In my mind, I see a big difference in the last 4 years so I don’t continually hold the first 5 years against Herb Sendek.”
    OK then how many tournaments has Snedek won in the past 4 years?
    There is ample evidence that says Sendek is not a tournament coach. He and his system excel in regular season situations.

  16. Patrice 11/24/2005 at 12:38 AM #

    It is dissapointing that nc state is not getting any top 25 respect and is not getting a nationally televised game until next saturday against notre dame, but hey, its November!

    From reading Peeler’s bytes on gopack it seems like the team has loads of potential, and I can’t wait to watch them play and play against ncaa tourn caliber team. Hopefully they can make a mark this season.

    As for the Herb rants I’ve read on posts, I know we would all like to say “Hey Herb, its great that you got us out from under the NCAA tourn suspension cloud back during Valvano and later Les Robinson era, and have consistently gotten us back to the NCAAs lately, but could you kick it up a notch and have us be competitive with Duke and make final four appearances? Something like this. By the way looks like the recruiting is going well, can’t wait to see what McCauley and Costner can do with Evtimov and Atsur as the helm, and growth of Grant, Simmons, and Brackman. Keep up the good work!”

    -P

  17. Jeff 11/24/2005 at 8:29 AM #

    “Jeff: In my mind, I see a big difference in the last 4 years so I don’t continually hold the first 5 years against Herb Sendek. It just doesn’t make sense considering where our program was coming from IMO.”

    I’m sorry if I give the impression that I hold the first 5 years against Herb. (I forgot that those years didn’t really happen and I wasn’t shelling out thousands of dollars for LTRs and tickets during those times.) Seriously, the reason for including the first 5 years in the discussion (other than the fact that they happened) is because they indicate what Sendek can achieve. Had we won the ACC Title in Herb’s first year, would we carve that out because it was followed by 4 bad years? of course not.

    Irregardless…screw it…in the last four years, we haven’t won any titles…even in small tournaments. Point remains the same.

    We have played BC and Syracuse at home. We had a Sweet 16 team in W Va last year. We have Alabama next season. Again, after viewing schedules of other ACC programs I don’t know that we have much ground to stand on in terms of complaining about our scheduling.

    O…we played Syracuse at home over 5 years ago…in one of those seasons that you don’t want to count. Can we decide if we want to include those seasons or not?

    One thing about all of those visits from those decent teams that have visited that you mentioned —- we LOST.

  18. Rick 11/24/2005 at 12:02 PM #

    There were some more great games on TV last night. I watched about 5 hours of basketball last night and enjoyed evey minute of it.
    Of course our game was not considered interesting enough to even put on TV.

  19. Mr. O 11/24/2005 at 7:45 PM #

    Jeff: If Herb had won an ACC title and been to a couple of Sweet 16s and and a Final 8 his first five years and then followed that up with 4 straight NITs, then I guarantee you that NC State fans would have carved out his first 5 years in an attempt to get him fired.

    “I also wish that we respected and valued the season ticket holders who support the program enough to reward them with some kind of interesting match up at home. At least 2 or 3 per decade.”

    In your discussion of scheduling, you referenced a longer time frame than the last 4 years.

  20. Mr. O 11/24/2005 at 7:58 PM #

    It is interesting see the comments about Herb’s tournament coaching:

    “Last season, Sendek took his sixth Wolfpack squad to postseason play and became just the seventh coach in the storied history of the ACC to take three of his first seven teams to the ACC Tournament championship. For the second straight season and the third time in his seven years with the Wolfpack, his squad knocked off the tourney’s top seeded team.”

    Also, he had the upset at Miami, Oh over 5th seeded Arizona. He also has an NIT semi-final and a Sweet 16.

    I wouldn’t describe him as a bad tournament coach at all. I think he has only lost in the ACC tournament 1st round once. I would describe him at age 42 as a very young coach who simply wasn’t prepared to coach in the ACC at NC State when we first hired him. Through the struggles of the first 5 years, he now seems to be prepared to coach at this level.

  21. Rick 11/24/2005 at 8:28 PM #

    If “this level”=”middle tier of the ACC” then yes he is coaching at this level.

  22. VaWolf82 11/24/2005 at 9:02 PM #

    I know that Mr.O doesn’t throw around praise about Herb lightly, but I don’t see how you can say that Herb seems to be prepared to coach at this level….assuming that you mean the ACC. I hope that you are right, but by my count, Herb ranks behind K, Roy W, Gary W, and Skippy. So far, he hasn’t shown the ability to consistently compete with any of these coaches.

  23. Mr. O 11/25/2005 at 10:16 AM #

    Coach K = Greatest coach in ACC history
    Roy W = Hall of Famer
    Gary W = Hall of Famer

    I wouldn’t come close to putting Skip up there with those three guys. He really hasn’t proven anything yet. He tookover a stocked program and got a couple of recruits that may not have gone to Wake had the situation been different at NC State. He doesn’t have any sustained ACC success with 100% guys he has recruited, so judging him at this point is pre-mature IMO.

    So of the other three, Herb is behind 3 Hall of Fame coaches in your eyes.

    When I said “prepared”, all I meant is that he has the experience now to coach at a program like NC State. Gary Williams had coached at two major conference schools before coming to Maryland. Skip Prosser coached at Xavier for 5 or 6 years before coming to Wake Forest. He coached 1 year at Loyola and was an assistant for Gillen for 7 or 8 years. He also coached HS basketball for 6 years and is now over 50 years old. Roy Williams is almost 60 years old and coached at Kansas for 10 years prior to coming to UNC.

    We hired a 32 year old coach to takeover an ACC program in shambles with zero talent. Clearly, he wasn’t the guy we should have hired for a quick turn-around and clearly he was in over his head for several years. However, he now has coached in the ACC for 9 years. He has been through almost everything a young coach needs to face to be able to learn to coach in the ACC. That is what I mean by saying he is now “prepared” to coach in the ACC. He has the experience.

    If we were ever to change coaches, then does anyone believe we would get a guy with a decade of head coaching experience in a major conference?

    Note that this doesn’t mean I necessarily believe that Herb is the next Hall of Fame coach from the ACC. But I at least have an open mind about it.

    Jeff will love this gem from Skip Prosser’s bio:

    “Coaching isn’t wins and losses,” Prosser said. “It’s teaching. That’s the reason I got into coaching and the reason I’ve stayed in coaching.

  24. Jeff 11/27/2005 at 7:46 PM #

    Putting Skip ahead of Herb does not inherently mean that anyone intimates that he is in the same class of Roy/Gary/K.

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