My reaction is somewhat mixed. It seems clear from the N&O’s writeup of Tom O’Brien’s comments that the coach and I saw Beck’s performance similarly. Beck was light years better than a shellshocked Daniel Evans (last night was his worst performance in a Wolfpack uniform - and that’s really saying something). However, Beck continues to be somewhat reckless with the ball, and makes at least half of his throws off his back foot. He can (and did) throw the ball 40-50 yards downfield that way…but it’s still not a good idea. A legitimate defense will bait Beck into serious mistakes, and have CBs better suited to defend the jumpballs that Beck frequently throws. The biggest red flag last night was not the late pick six - it was a throw that Beck completed. Harrison scrambled under pressure, and at the last second found the tight end across the middle for a seven yard gain. However, the throw was against his body, off his back foot, and in the general vicinity of five defenders. If that extremely difficult pass floats, or is off just a little bit, it’s intercepted, with 50/50 odds of being returned deep into Wolfpack territory. Simply put, it was a major risk for a fairly small reward - and over time, those kind of decisions will bite you in the ass, hard. Russell Wilson knows how and when to throw the damned ball away.
On the other hand, I don’t like Russell Wilson getting back into the lineup so quickly after a serious head injury. I have no doubt that he is receiving top-notch medical care, and that team doctors have cleared him to play. But next week’s game is again in a hostile environment, with a big, athletic front seven that will likely get several clear shots at the QB. It’s also a game that the Pack will lose by at least two TDs, regardless of who’s under center. I would rather re-insert Wilson at home against ECU or South Florida, and see if we could still a win (with the opponent having very little tape to study). But these are the hard decisions that Tom O’Brien is paid to make.
The N&O coverage also noted that the Pack WRs were able to get open for Beck, as they had been unable to do for Evans. Their analysis stops there, and does not mention three crucial factors:
1) Opening up the field. Any coaches who have not been lobatimized have no doubt seen the tape of last year’s game against Maryland. The lesson is clear - put 8 or 9 men in the box. Don’t let State run, and aggressively cover the short routes. Evans can’t keep defenses honest with deep or even intermediate throws. William & Mary employed this tactic, and Evans led the Pack to zero first downs over his 7 or 8 possessions. Beck came in, and immediately challenged the Tribe deep, and with intermediate seam routes. After converting several big plays, the shorter routes opened up significantly, and the Pack began moving the ball crisply (at least through the air).
2) Opening up the playbook. With Evans in the game, it seemed as if the Pack only ran four or five plays. Evans’ one deep throw was a third down duck, aimed in the vicinity of a pair of Tribe defenders (but no Pack receiver). William & Mary intercepted the ball and returned it to NC State’s 20. Evans was bailed out by a fumbled option pitch that killed the Tribe’s chances to take the lead. Beck used the whole field and at least double the number of pass plays, and even had a few nice runs. A defense that doesn’t know what is coming is one that plays back on its heels, and is far less aggressive and confident.
3) Confidence/Hope. The rest of the team had some bounce in its step once Beck came into the game. From reading the players’ body language (this was confirmed by several people who attended the game in Columbia), they have no confidence whatsoever in Daniel Evans. When you have little to no faith in your QB, you can’t help but be a step slower. Watching the players interact with Beck, it is clear that they like him and at least have some hope with him under center. This should be even more the case when Wilson returns, as every offseason report we heard praised Wilson’s leadership ability.
Last night was an important win, because it was a win. We don’t have to worry about going 0-for-12, and that most certainly was a realistic fear in the South Carolina aftermath and throughout most of the first half last night. Now, the focus shifts to a handful of remaining games against several non-descript ACC foes (Maryland, Duke, UNC, Boston College). An upset against ECU or UCF also can’t be ruled out, as these teams will not have overwhelming personnel advantages. I would be shocked if State can even be competitive against Clemson, Wake, Miami, or Florida State.
A couple quick notes:
Evans looked like he had to try really hard to throw the ball last night. The shoulder surgery does not look to have been a success (at least on the football field). Having just been through ACL surgery, I can attest to the “gun-shy” factor. When he was on the field, the offense lacked any sort of timing or punch. Flat.
The crowd cheered when, on 3rd and long, Beck chucked a ball from the W&M 45 to the end-zone. (Help me out with the receiver) didn’t catch it, but the Tribe had at least three men in coverage after that.
The Clemson game seems like the perfectly wrong time to put Wilson back in. He’ll be only two weeks away from having his brain rattled and Clemson, probably more so than USC, has the horses to do the same. We are not expecting a win out of Death Valley and it would be nice not for Wilson to get crunched his first game back from injury.
Russel Wilson should start. He needs game experience even with poor line play. Who knows, maybe he’ll develop into a Patrick Pinkney. BTW, it was amazing watching other teams, Ole Miss for one, get very good quaterback play, yet State can’t seem to get a quaterback who can lead an offense.
packsage makes a valid point, BUT, I would prefer for the chunky gunslinger to get the start this weekend … If we’re going to go down hard, go down guns blazing - and if he throws 12 Int’s so what … I’d prefer to get Russell another week of recovery if he’s not all the way back
That said, I really like Russell and if he is indeed fully recovered then he’s absolutely the choice … I’ve got full confidence in TOB, so hopefully Russell is and will be fine
At least when Beck throws most of his INTs, they’re way down field. Its almost more of a punt than an Evans pick.
packsage, olemiss’ QB is a transfer from Texas who just barely lost the job to colt mccoy when he was at Texas.
If R Wilson doesnt play this week, then when will he play. ECU’s front seven destroyed WVU and USF has the best DE in football with Seville. There isnt an easy game to ease him in.
Lastly, I’ve cant remember a wolfpack crowd turning so quickly on a player. Granted he played poorly, but the entire crowd was booing after that first interception.
I was watching the pitiful video feed from ACCSelect. One of the few things they showed was the coin toss. I was scared from the beginning watching Evans’ body language at center field. I know some might say I’m reading too much into this observation, but it was very clear from the opening that Evans was wishing he was not the guy starting.
My friends and I refer to Beck as “Harrison ‘Screw it, I’m going long’ Beck. My football coaching associates say Beck goes through he progressions too fast and — almost invariably — just decides to chuck it as far as he can rather than toss it away or do what he is supposed to do.
Let’s not lose sight of coach’s job to put the best possible team on the field each week. If Wilson playing means that, then he should be out there.
That being said, a concussion, no matter how mild, is not something to be played through. I have long believed that players diagnosed with a concussion — regardless of severity — should sit out of game action a mandatory 4 weeks.
“Lastly, I’ve cant remember a wolfpack crowd turning so quickly on a player. Granted he played poorly, but the entire crowd was booing after that first interception.”
This “part of the crowd” wasn’t booing Evans, this part of the crowd was booing Bible. Actually I didn’t boo — I just don’t like booing State players no matter what — but I was disgusted with the coaches choice of personell, play calling and offensive design adn not necessarily in that order. If I were Bible, I’d fire my quarterback coack… wait a minute, Bible is the quarterback coach.
For starters the design of the pass offence is obsolete. Sure we catch a few balls, get open some but by and large it is either defensive breakdown or excellent offensive execution. We appear to be “flooding the zone” I guess that is what we are doing. Certainly our pass attack appears to be designed to give our QB several options. Unfortunately we haven’t had a QB who could check the options quickly enough to find the open man and deliver the ball.
Throwing short passes does give the defense the opportunity to get some of those 8 and 9 men “in the box” opportunity to get in the pass coverage. It looks like our QB is trying to pick out a receiver in the Brickyard at noon.
Lou Holtz (back in the days he was at NCSU and I gave a shit what he had to say) used to talk about using his WRs to “run off the D-backs” meaning you didn’t have to block them if they were turned away from the play sprinting to keep our WRs in coverage. When you go deep with 2 or 3 receivers, there is room underneath for the tight end to cross underneath and the backs in delayed swing routes. Sending our backs out with our WOs 7 and 10 yards down field makes for the kind of hit that Morgan put on the poor William and Mary receiver last night.
I said all that to make this point: I am not impressed with our Offensive Coordinator and given TOB’s value on loyalty, I don’t expect much change. Fool me Tom. There is talk about the package put in to take advantage of Wilson’s running ability. If we keep everybody within 15 yards of the quarterback to block, it stands to reason that defenders are there too. I just don’t think it’s all execution. We don’t seem to have an offensive philosophy and if we do it doesn’t seem to stand a chance of succeeding.
There doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason to our play calling. On 1st down Brown picks up 6 yds. On 2nd down Graham is almost killed and we almost gave up 6 on a 2 yard pass. What was that play setting up or when did we set that play up. Does Graham have a reputation ala GT’s Johnson of a few years ago? Did any defender have any reason to fear DE going deep? Could DE throw deep enough to give Graham a chance to create some separation with his speed? I mean we had him open against SC on blown coverage and DE couldn’t get it to him in a situation that Beck likely would have overthrown him.
We sent the defensive coaches to learn how to defend the spread. Why do that? Is the spread something to fear? Is the spread an offense that moves the football? If the answer is yes, then why are we running the ‘no name’ offense?
I am just concerned about the psyche of Wilson. His first experience as QB of the Pack in Columbia was a bad one. Now he gets to play his first full game in Death Valley, and then there’s the mighty Pirates and after that we have South Florida, BC and Florida State. There is no easy game in there for sure. I just hope we can get through this stretch without being absolutely pummeled, both on the scoreboard as well as physically. If Wilson begins taking a ton of shots, and we’re down big, you’ve got to pull him for the sake of his own development. I undertsand TOB is going to want to win these games, but the probability is not all that great and you have a fragile freshman QB leading the way. Not exactly the ideal circumstances for a young player to learn and to grow.
Allowing Wilson to play QB next week is borderline criminal.
With our Offensive line Nate Irving is our only hope at QB.
If I never hear “Thunder” again it will be too soon.
last night was the first time i questioned TOB and Co as well. Leaving Evans in the game as long as they did was wrong! flat out wrong. Evans has taken his last snap in a wilfpack uniform and rightly so. look i like Dannie Evans, he is a good kid. and he has had MORE than enough opportunities to proove he is worthy of PT. he just is not any good. period. end of discussion. I lookk for Wilson to start, then O’Brien to pull him in the 2nd quearter for a few series (which i also do not agree with) and for Wilson to play out the season, assuming the O-line can give him enough time to avoid a SERIOUS spinal injury this time
Scoot.. the pick 6 beck threw was Evansesque to the flat.
I am okay with Wilson starting.. i guess TOB wants to give us our best chance to win the next game.
Regarding Wilson’s thoughts and fears, this is not his first day in football. And he could be playing at safety or CB. I assert that if given the green light, he could dish it out as well as take it.
He didn’t get pummeled in South Carolina. Oh, it would seem like a beating to me, just being hit, but the “pummelling” he took was late hits and a spearing and an “accidental” knee to the head — all of which should have been penalized. (I didn’t realize it but celebrating a TD is a far more serious offence than late hits and spearing. BTW we didn’t celebrate any more and the late hits would have stopped, too. A penalty and a warning and an ejection would have seen to that.)
I saw football players last night. Beck punished a defender ala Marcus Stone last night. Underwood choose to hit a defender going in for his touchdown in lieu of some evasive move that would have gotten him in as well. Our D is expected to hit but they exceeded my expectations more than once.
If it were DE we were talking about, I would agree with the psyche bit, but not a football player. This is football, ladies, not badmitten.
I’m still chuckling over the idea that shoulder surgery was going to make Evans shoulder *stronger.*
Really? When has that ever happened? When has an MLB pitcher ever had shoulder surgery and come out throwing harder??
Sure the offense wasn’t at the top of its game, but why should we reveal all our plays to Clemson…Bible is smart for playing conservative against W&M…he will open the playbook next week.
Evans actually has one (I’ll pause here for you to wipe the coffee or other beverage off your screens) major problem. He is vertically challenged…too damned short. At 6′ 1″ there’s no possible way he can see over his own O-line, much less the D-line. Beck being much taller, he can see the field and therefore can progress through his receivers better (when he does). Wilson can tuck and run when he has to, but Beck showed he was not afraid of running or blocking. It may be the opinion that it’s too soon to put Wilson back on the field, but I’ll trust TOB and the team doctors….Let’s wait and see.
BTW….it was really nice to see…..and hear….a huge hit by our defense again (I think it was big Nate). That poor kid didn’t see stars…he saw constellations. Scratch that..galaxies. I sit in the end zone seats (the old field house area) and we all heard that hit like it happened in our seats. GREAT TO SEE A HARD NOSED DEFENSE AGAIN!! Anybody get that one on video???
It is football and the the facts are in the kid’s first game he was taken off a stretcher and sent to the hospital. I would imagine that would have an impact on anyone’s psyche, most certainly a freshman’s, no matter how tough he is.
Good analysis and I agree. Wilson is a better leader, has a solid arm (better than DE, not as good as Beck), and seems to be a good decision-maker from what little we saw in Columbia. More than that, the coaches like what he brings to the team. End of story. I don’t agree with the argument that he should be held out vs Clemson for a later week. Frankly, based on results, ECU looks like a better defensive unit than Clemson, so not sure starting him vs the Pirates would be any better.
Why is anyone questioning the coaches? You could maybe question a play here or there, but geez people. We are completely out-maned out there for the most part on offense. Our OL got pushed into the backfield by *William & Mary* most of the night, and our best play-makers (Eugene, Hill, Bowens) aren’t available.
Repeat after me: it’s not the Xs and the Os its the Jims and the Joes.
On a bright note, it was good to see TJ Graham and George Bryan make some plays out there. Those two will be key contributors for us in the coming years. (It’s also scary that we have to rely so much on two freshmen.) And what more can you say for Nate Irving? That dude is clearly our best defensive player, and I can’t see how it’s even close. Two games, double-digit tackles, TFLs, key fumble recoveries, INTs… the guy is everywhere. All-ACC material this year.
I think some folks said in the game thread that was the only win all year. Please come off the ledge. No we are not a very good team right now, but we managed to win 5 games last year after a terrible start, so I think we will carve out a few more wins somehow. And hey, the defense is forcing plenty of TOs this year, so if we can just get some decent offensive consistency, we will win a few games.
The O line is not effective, granted, but does this mean the O-line can’t be coached and improve? This looking at one play or series or one or two games and projecting that for the season is conceding that our coaches are ineffective. Wait… maybe this is the problem. If our O-line can’t move bigger, stronger players out, then our OC and OL coach should be designing blocking schemes that let a player do what he can succeed at, take advantage of what they can do.
TOB’s rep for developing O-linemen may be the source of our failure as an O-line. While WF now has very good linemen, WF used schemes that allowed OL to be successful BEFORE they developed into good linemen. Development works but working inside a players ability works also.
And remember, the sun don’t shine on the same dog’s ass all day. Our day is coming.
Graham is gonna be a monster. He made some great grabs last night. Bryan was a pleasant surprise when he was pressed into service, made some tremendous plays himself. Bright future in those two.
Here is what I believe was the coaching staff’s thinking heading into last night - they knew Wilson would start the following week, so it wasn’t about finding the best QB going forward. They felt that we should be able to run a limited offensive package (all Evans can handle) and get away with it - rather than play the allegedly riskier Harrison Beck.
I can see that argument, just think they stayed with Evans a few series too long.
Granted, Beck makes riskier throws…but remember, with great risk comes great reward.
A moving pocket doesn’t require dominating the D-line. If we are getting pushed in the backfield, then the coaches complaining (to themselves of course) about the Mikes and Joes is not coaching. All coaches adjust the Xs and Os”. The ones who make the adjustments at half time and win the second half aren’t adjusting the Mikes and Joes. Maybe that’s all YOU know how to do but I expect our coaches to know far more than that.
The only two instances where Xs and Os don’t matter is when you have big, fast, skilled players and small, slow and unskilled players. It doesn’t matter what you run in either of those cases. USC(Cal) doesn’t need advantages because they have big, fast, skilled players. Unless NCSU has the latter, we had better give our players some advantages until we have the former.
For what it’s worth I say the medical considerations and concerns are the only valid concerns regarding Wilson’s playing. If he is shy about taking a hit, one or two games off will not make a difference.
Quotes:
“Lastly, I’ve cant remember a wolfpack crowd turning so quickly on a player. Granted he played poorly, but the entire crowd was booing after that first interception.”
I boo-ed lustily. First three throws were:
1 completion for -1 yard
1 pick
1 pick that the DB dropped.
When the screen pass landed 8 yards behind the running back, I had seen enough.
I’m not proud of that, but doggone it enough is enough.
“If I never hear “Thunder” again it will be too soon.”
+1. Is our game day production crew out of Junior High school yet? And now, let’s introduce the Pack’s biggest fans, Mr. & Mrs. Wolf… How lame is that.
On a bright note, it was good to see TJ Graham and George Bryan make some plays out there. Those two will be key contributors for us in the coming years.
+1
Nate Irving reminds me a LOT of Stephen Tulloch. He’s all over the field. Easily our best defensive player.
RabidWolf
Sep 7th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
BTW….it was really nice to see…..and hear….a huge hit by our defense again (I think it was big Nate).
It was DaAndre Morgan. Nate picked up the resulting fumble. How about some props for former Walk-on, Robbie Leonard who had a shirttail full of tackles also.
Another Morgan making big plays for the ‘Pack….you gotta love it! Now if we could only find another Maddox.
Seemed to me that Evans threw the ball mostly east and west. Not toward the endzones. He also threw short passes and out our receivers in the position of getting nailed at full speed by the defenders. Maybe he can’t see the field or open receivers more than 10 yards away. Really bad that our “stable of running backs” are either injured or unable to find holes so far.
I did get to enjoy the new suites and that was fun.
My word, ECU is #14 in the AP top 25, #20 in USA Today poll.
I too am surprised they are going to put Wilson in the game against Clemson. Grade three concussions usually take three weeks to heel at minimum so it’s not so much a function of whether Wilson’s psyche is in the right place to play but more so, have his eggs descrambled themselves.
I have faith that the doctors, coaches and Wilson have sound judgment but when it comes down to it, you have to question how important is the game over life.
Don’t get me wrong, when that clock starts, there is nothing more important beyond the walls of my Condo than that game (and I’m sure the same goes for the player) but I could have given two shits about the game when Wilson went down.
I wasn’t saying I don’t support Wilson starting. I trust that the facts are known and the correct decision has been made. What I am saying, though, is if we are getting beat badly and our offensive line continues to struggle as it has, he does not need to be left in there to be fed to the dogs.
^^^ That’s what happens when you upset 2 preseason Top 25s. I am not looking forward to playing the pirates. I bet the Big East is regretting not allowing them in the conference now…
BJD’s article is spot on…
Evans is not strong enough to throw the out and not strong enough to throw the bomb, so you better have a 1500-1600 lb line and be able to run or you are completely dead with him in there.
Beck has a cannon, so at least the other D has to worry about getting burnt, even if Beck is a risky gunslinger with questionable mechanics sometimes.
I would go with Beck down at Clemson. It is nice to say Wilson is your man from originally earning the job, but it is asking too much of the kid, I think, to put him back in after a scary injury on the road vs a team who is likely to win big either way. Why let the youngster’s confidence be destroyed so soon? Plus, Bowden is such a scumbag, he would probably tell his kids to knock Wilson out just like he did when he basically ended CJ Leak’s career over at Wake.
1) I think it’s a travesty that ECU is #20 in the AP. #14 I agree with but #20? How are there 19 teams in the country who has done what they have done?
2) This is more reason than ever that preseason hype is the only way a non-BCS school can have any chance at a national title. I’m not pulling for ECU to win, but when you start your season with two tough games (games you are favored to lose by a touchdown or more in each), you deserve some better recognition in the polls. ECU is, at this point in the season, the best team in North Carolina. They could take a nosedive for the season, but I think Skip is looking to skip over to South Bend or to Clemson or maybe to the Big Ten or maybe even to Tennessee should Fulmer drop another terd season in Knoxville.
3) I’m very upset that it took East Carolina only two seasons to create a stir in all of college football. In my lifetime (32 years), I don’t believe that we’ve had a start to our season as great as theirs through two weeks in 2008. Sorry to be walking the ledge, but I’m not optimistic about this season, or really next season given what I’ve seen through injury, player development, and recruiting. As a State fan and graduate, I’m wondering how long we allow ourselves to wait for O’Brien to create his BC successes here? Are we willing to wait until year 5? Can he wait until year 5? I hate to call this season “recyclable,” but I’m struggling to find a better adjective.
I was watching the UM/UF game it and it reminded me of our game with USC. It was a close game, but UM couldn’t get their offense going. Eventually the defense couldn’t carry the load anymore and UF was able to pull away late. The key playing being the one which the receiver landed on his elbow and they called it a catch.
I believe both UM and State are not far off, but need to be able to produce on offense just enough to provide rest for defenses that are thin and/or inexperienced.
I’m sorry, but much of this discussion is silly. TOB said the doctors cleared Wilson to play THIS week. In other words, TOB was being overly cautious in holding Wilson out of the W & M game. Why the hell should he hold him out of our first conference game a week later?
I also disagree entirely with the notion that we will be lucky to stay within a few TDs of Clemson. Did you watch the Bama-Clemson game? Clemson looked like crap, then on Saturday the Citadel threw all over them. This is not an unwinnable game (provided that Evans does not see the field). No need to throw in the towel on this season.
Put anybody in the backfield you want but until the OL opens holes to run through we are dead in the water. Our only option is to attack the seams with some type of option and Wilson is our best bet for speed on either side.
I hope we win a few more games this year but until we get a competent OL and QB we are sitting ducks.
Recruiting has to continue to be better than good and approaching great to turn this disaster around. I am optimistic and think that we can produce a winner with Coach O’Brien but the natives are getting restless early.
Wolf in ATl and tvp1,
I agree completely. Our D looks very athletic and ready to play. If we can move the ball offensively, we should not lose any games badly.
This is not an unwinnable game
Let’s see how the game plays out. I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be happy to admit if I turn out to be wrong about the Clemson game or this season.
ECU deserves to be #14. Like I said, they are better right now than any ACC team, including Clemson or Wake. I do think that a look at their roster of recycled ACC/SEC rejects (Jamar Bryant, Doug Palmer, Brandon Setzer, Marcus Hands, Khalif Mitchell, etc) deserves some media attention. Maybe that sounds harsh, but in addition to Holtz being a fine coach, there is a reason a non-BCS school like ECU has become this good this fast.
BTW anyone notice that UF’s last minute, meaningless FG allowed them to cover the spread vs Miami? Line was UF by 22.5, and Meyer opted for a FG to make it 26-3. Hmmm… Musburger mentioned during the broadcast that the FG might be considered running up the score for voters and S.FL recruits, but the spread never entered the conversation (for obvious reasons).
Yeah i totally noticed that since gameday reminded us 100 times that the spread was 21 points. I guess Meyer rewarded the Gator fans with faith in the program. A lot of money changed hands in the 5 seconds it took for that field goal.
So many thoughts here:
1) I can’t stand the booing of Daniel Evans. I have been a critic of him a long time, but that’s inexcusable. The kid is out there trying his best. That’s 10 times worse than booing Chuckles on the Jumbotron. (And yes, I realize some of it was the playcalling, still.)
2) Beck played awesome. A couple of excellent points by BJD95 - #1 - I stated to those around me that the really cool pass floated across the middle to Bryant may have looked good, but it wouldn’t work against a good Division 1A secondary. #2 - It was amazing to watch the field open up after those deep passes.
3) If the coaches and Wilson believe Wilson is ready, he needs to go. Emotionally, this concerns me, but if he has reached MMI, then let him if he’s ever going to go again.
4) Aside from the booing of Evans - I was impressed by the fans w/ the exception of the start of the 2nd half - I see why all of our coaches would like to dump pass out.
5) Beck had some really interesting comments. First off, he came across as extremely classy -saying that it’s his job to support Daniel and Russell - even when they are getting booed. Secondly, he said our OL was better than last years. (Maybe I should have made item #5, item #1.)
It amazes me that DE was in the mix. We could use Burke now.
Our coaches play SMALL BALL. Let W&M dictate the play last night for a good bit of hte game. We are not going to beat anyone playing SMALL BALL. Why would we let a D 2 team do that to us. Embarassing.
I am very disappointed in the stubborness of TOB and Bible. Go down playing ball, guys, if we don’t go deep,we will not win another game. Look what MD and USC did to us.
We are trying to win with BC plays from 10 years ago and picked a QB that can’t throw the ball downfild.
Really disappointed. Do you think Lou Holtz would whimp out and play small ball instead of stepping up and putting in some wide open plays.
If we play small ball, we will not win another game. RW will get beat to death with small ball coaching.
One more reason why I believe the receivers get open more for anyone not named Daniel Evans. Evans does not protect his receivers and often leads them into trouble.
Seriously, I would want NO part of a pass across the middle from DE since it almost always means that I am going to get killed by the safety/linebacker.
I think part of it is due to the fact that the lack of arm strength does not get the ball to the receiver in time so it gives defense time to react. I also think that he gets happy feet and simply gets rid of the ball. A QB has to put his guys in a position to make a play, but he has to also earn their trust that he will not lead them into danger.
Can someone give Harrison a free case of Slim Fast? His belly was follping up and down when he ran onto the field like a fat stripper. But give the boy some credit, he can throw a football.
Greywolf:
The spread offense is taking over college football. Originally the idea was that it spreads the field horizontally to allow smaller faster teams a chance against physically superior opponents. Look no further than Winston Salem if you won’t to see a success story. But now, its not just the small teams running it. Florida, Texas, West Virginia to name a few big boys who run it. Instead of smaller and faster players, they have the luxury of having larger and faster players who run it.
Damn my habit of consuming beer during games b/c I can’t remember but we ran a few spread plays against South Carolina when Wilson was in. We actually ran option plays in the spread set. They seem to go hand in hand. Traditionally, TOB runs a pro-style offense which is what we mostly see. However, it doesn’t work unless you have a quarterback and O-Line which we don’t have either. Wilson was sort of running a hybrid offense that combined, option, spread, and pro-style. Anxious to see more of him next week.
BTW, we have signed a 4.4 speedster quarterback out of Jack Britt in Fayetteville. Apparently, TOB and staff’s whole coaching paradigm is changing with the times. However, he’ll have to wait for Glennon before he gets any PT.
The only frustration I have is that we are 2 games in and still have no clue what our O is intended to be. This isn’t a comment on coaching, it’s just the way it’s played out.
What is clear is that our play calling is VERY QB dependent. DE is there to hand it off and little more. Beck goes in to chuck it. Wilson is the man that we’ve obviously built around but he hasn’t had more than a cup of coffee so far. It’s an exercise in delayed gratification… or a stay of execution… or some other such thing.
Point is, I’m ready to start analyzing something that actually matters, as opposed to OVER-ANALYZING these short-lived, survival tactics.
As far as Wilson starting we do not know what is going on behind the scenes.
First as far as the concussion goes I am sure the doctors have or will clear him before contact.
This kid is likely determined and expecting to start Saturday. He is a competitor and if he is reasonably healthy he is not going to be comfortable sitting on the sidelines.
Second as far as TOB’s coaching I for one am at this point completely comfortable that he has both short term and long term plans that he is working. No plan survives contact with the enemy of course so he is adjusting it. He doesn’t have much to work with, but I think we are in good hands for the future. No matter what his plan is I am pretty sure it doesn’t include giving up on the next game before it is played.
I am not going to pretend for one second that I know anywhere near as much about footbal as TOB, but I am not blind. So far this season we have had the opportunity to watch all three QB’s for about a half of football each…with the following results:
Wilson has produced 0 points, 12 yards, and 20% completions.
Evans produced 7 points (defense aided), 49 yards, 27% completions and 3 INT’s
Beck produced 27 points, 246 yards, and 61% completions.
Now…given that USC is a much tougher opponent than Bill & Mary…here is my conclusion:
1- If Daniel Evans EVER plays another meaningful down TOB should be fired. (exception: Wilson & Beck are hurt)
2- Beck is the better passer between he and Wilson. Against a USC defense that will be very similar to Clemson’s, Wilson was 1-4 for 12 yards. I like the kid, but let’s face it ..he wasnt all that good in that game.
3- Given the injury to Wilson (and likely re-injury against the speed and size of Clemson)…there is NO reason to play Wilson in this game….PERIOD!
IMO….TOB and his staff have decided they like the spread option for this team…and are not willing to adjust. Therefore…until he cracks his head open again, Wilson will have to play.
PQ - You can really compare passing statistics against USC on the road to those against W&M at home. Besides, Beck has looked great in backup duty before…the D can adjust to him as well.
I think Russel is being put in there to manage the game. An incomplete pass is better than an INT. The bad news is that we haven’t seen RW manage an entire game. We’ve seen it from Beck, and the results were not good.
With all due respect, I think we learned what Evans and Beck can do last year. I’ve seen nothing this year that would change my impressions. I’d play Beck over Evans b/c he opens up the field but I’d also expect 2-4 INT’s a game. Neither guy is going to win you many games and neither guy is likely to develop substantially from here.
With Russell, you have a new tool set that, hopefully, is a better tool set. Can we judge pro or con on 1 full quarter of play? Heck no! However, the coaches have a lot more info than we do on this one (2yrs worth of practice). Plus, there is no denying that Russell’s development potential (as an RS-Fr) is huge relative to 4-5yr guys like Beck & Evans. The coaches know that there is no present or future with the other guys and they’ve decided to optimize the O specifically for Russell. That’s a long view that I can accept from TOB. It doesn’t mean that Russell makes us a winner but it doesn’t mean the opposite either. It just hasn’t played out yet. We’re headed for game 3 but we really haven’t seen anything yet. Frustrating but unavoidable, IMO.
The sample size for Wilson is about 5 passes. That’s nowhere near enough to draw any conclusions. Plus, at least 2 of his incompletions were very smart (threw the ball away - which is something Beck and Evans really suck at).
Beck got away with alot of stuff against W&M that a good defense would capitalize on.
The offense is 100% tailored to RW. It should be fun to watch if we can excecute as a team.
Off the top of my head I remember one offensive penalty - a hold on a true frosh walk-on TE playing FB from Leesville. I recall to special teams penalties and maybe one penalty on D. Regardless, that is really impressive.
Military appreciation day was awesome, we had a great time and we’re so grateful to be in their presence. We have so much to be proud of being a part of NC State considering the amazing sacrafices so many have made and still are making.
Some of you ought to re-read some of your comments. You are entitled to your opinions and I’m entitled to mine. My thoughts are that if you compared your spewings to reality you would consider shutting up and/or going away. You are instigators trying to argue nothing coherant. Suck it if you think TOB isn’t doing an amazing job with the cards he has been dealt. I can deal with one Eyore in Noah but thats all I can tolerate.
I think the bottom line with Beck is that the coaches just don’t feel he is dependable. He seems intent on doing things “his way” and has made public comments that lead one to believe that he takes coaching as a suggestion rather than a mandate.
I also suspect that Beck’s “conditioning” work over the summer has really pissed the coaches off. There is no doubt that they had a workout regimen for everyone and unless Beck had some undisclosed injury that prevented him from hitting the gym it’s clear that he didn’t bother to follow the plan. A college football player looking like he does is not good and he didn’t seem heavy before. If he sat around eating pizza and drinking beer all summer while his teammates were in the gym then I suspect TOB doesn’t feel he’s worthy of a start.
From what little you see publicly Beck just does not appear to be very mature and this in his 4th year of college. Probably not going to have a turnaround at this point in his career.
“Did you watch the Bama-Clemson game? Clemson looked like crap”
It would be nice to compare favorably with the 2nd worst team Nick Saban will probably ever have at Bama, but there may not be a guy on State’s team who compares favorably with Bama’s true freshmen, much less their huge talented and experienced offensive line, etc. Wasn’t one of their inside DL’s a legitimate 400lbs?
Bama’s not THAT good yet, but in game 1 of year 2 Saban showed us all what you have to become and do if you want to be a powerhouse—dominate the trenches on both sides of the ball, wear the other team out with hard running on O and crushing D. TBowden always falls short, even with good talent, because he gets too caught up in his flash guys and forgets those things—but, make no mistake, TBowden is going to try to make a statement with his first ACC game after Bama’s beatdown and a sleepy game vs a no name.
It doesn’t matter who your qb is—Wilson, Beck, Evans—if you can’t run and you get killed every play OR if your D can’t get off of the field in a timely manner by stopping someone. It all starts with the hogs…
Par Shooter - excellent comments on Beck and his weight. He does seem intent on doing things his way..and evidently, that now applies to his conditioning. Like you said, there could be an excuse, but as someone who has to find time to work out to stay in shape in between working and being a father, a college athlete being out of shape really tees me off.
In his post game comments though - I was very impressed w/ Beck. He does seem to have matured - at least he says all the right things. I don’t know whether it’s just words or really is as mature, support and as humble as he came across, but I’m now pulling for him.
He also said the OL was better at this point this year than it was last year, so I’m taking we can gleam some hope from that.
If the Citadel can run up 427 offensive yards on Clemmons, can we at least get half of that amount and play good defense?
There was a nice article about Clemson on packpride.
http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/sep/08/bowden_still_concerned_about_lines53429/
Clemson got its first and only sack of the season against the Citadel and against either Alabama or the Citadel, Clemson has had 3 total 3-and-Outs. Sounds like they are having a bunch of injuries and Bowden is starting true freshman all over the OL and DL.
Also saw some really positive press about T.J. Graham. This kid was a 2* recruit and came to NCSU camp and blew everyone away. The whole TOB regime in my mind is awesome at discovering talent. The best thing about this game was the play of Jarvis Williams who, if he wasn’t 6′5 might not have caught that touchdown, Owen Spencer and T.J. Graham.
I hope i never have to watch another AccSelect game, the incessant commercials on the jumbotron and coming back 2 seconds before the ball is snapped is too nerve racking, not to mention a little cheap in my opinion
Perhaps there was too much blood in my alcohol stream, but I don’t think the offensive line has been THAT horrific. It is certainly leaps and bounds ahead of week 2 of last season. I won’t confuse our O-line with the New England Patriots anytime soon (hey, didn’t Brady get hurt behind that awesome line??); but they’re serviceable. Not where we need to be to consistently win in the trenches, but I don’t expect them to be grossly overmatched either. There is at least some semblance of depth, and for the most part the players act like they know where to be.
Wilson’s risk of reinjury isn’t so much a matter of protection- it’s whether he is victimized by cheap shots (whether intentional or not- the injury was a freak occurrence). Wilson will also need to learn very quickly that he is not Tim Tebow– learn how to avoid taking contact. If you run with the ball, you’ll get hit. Try to limit the contact and certainly don’t go lowering your head to plow into people.
BJD:
“The sample size for Wilson is about 5 passes. That’s nowhere near enough to draw any conclusions. Plus, at least 2 of his incompletions were very smart (threw the ball away - which is something Beck and Evans really suck at).
Beck got away with alot of stuff against W&M that a good defense would capitalize on.”
^ This is worth repeating and I agree totally.
Someone made a “small ball” comment. Listen, we do need to throw it downfield to keep the defense honest, but you can’t chuck it down the field without some OL protection (4-5 seconds) and last time I checked our OL isn’t very good. If you chuck it down the field, you risk not moving the chains and not giving the defense some rest (SC). A good stat line for us would be 150 yds rushing and 200-250 yds passing with some good ball control and possession time.
BTW, not sure if anyone has mention his name but Josh C is looking promising as a kicker. His 2 FGs vs W&M looked solid and his one miss on the season was the long one vs SC.
We at least have an outside shot vs Clemson if we can muster a decent ground game, keep our defense rested, and take advantage of forced TOs. I wouldn’t bet on it, but you never know.
^ Agree that Josh C. was a real positive on Saturday. Made 2 medium length FGs from the hash, which aren’t “gimmes” in college.
I must admit that I didn’t notice his blocking one way or the other - but George Bryan is already a better pass-catching TE than Ant Hill. His hands and footwork are freaking amazing. If he can block at all, he may have serious NFL potential.
I can deal with one Eyore in Noah but thats all I can tolerate.
Call it whatever you want, but he hasn’t been proven wrong about this FB season.
We at least have an outside shot vs Clemson if we can muster a decent ground game, keep our defense rested, and take advantage of forced TOs. I wouldn’t bet on it, but you never know.
You especially won’t know if you ignore the available information. Specifically:
NC State hasn’t averaged four yards per carry for the season in 10 years.
http://www.techsideline.com/news_archive/showArticle-3860.php
Against W&M, State had 67 yards rushing on 30 attempts. (Thank God State had Mary to pick on.)
Even though Josh missed badly in the SC game, the ball had plenty of leg from 49 yrds but he just didn’t turn it toward the goal post.
I am looking forward to seeing our starting QB play an entire game.
VaWolf - The issue isn’t whether we’ll average that for the season, but what we can do for a game. Last year, we rushed the ball well vs. UNC. This year, we rushed it pretty well against USC.
This doesn’t mean we’ll rush the ball well vs. Clemson - just that - even in the last 10 years, there have been games when we’ve rushed the ball. When we do, I imagine our win-loss record is very respectable.
DrBP - I think the question is whether or not the refs are going to protect the QB. Against USC there were a couple of borderline shots when he was sliding. Someone made a good point on an earlier thread that NCAA refs seem more concerned about excessive celebrations than they are about shots to the head. I would think if they want to eliminate this dangerous part of the game, they should call shots to the head when there is any doubt. (of course, this could lead to more knee injuries and more defenders getting hurt as they point their head at the moving legs of the ballcarrier.)
Doctor BP,
I tend to agree that I don’t think the OL has been as terrible as some make it out to be, but just extremely inconsistent. The OL will have 2 good plays than immediately follow it up with 1 horrible play so that inevitably it leads to a short series for the offense. I think the original post alluded to part of the problem when it talked about opening up the offense with Beck/Wilson.
Once we prove that we can actually throw beyond the first down marker than the OL play should become more consistent. The linebackers and secondary will have to be respectful of the pass so there will be fewer bodies to have to block.
It is simple math:
5 OL + 1 TE + 1 RB = 7 Potential Blockers < 8 or 9 Defensive Men in the Box
LF - to agree w/ your point, there were 2 plays were W&M’s DE went right aroud our tackles and had a direct shot at the qb.
I think O’Brien has done about all he can with what he had to work with.
When Tom Reed left and Sheridan came in, he left Sheridan with an NFL QB and three NFL WRs (Jeffires, Worthen and Peebles). He also left him with a defense that was league-average and an NFL kicker (Cofer).
When O’Cain left and Amato came in, he left Amato with an OL that had two future NFL players (Colmer and Kooistra), an NFL WR (Robinson), the reigning ACC ROY (RayRob), and a defense with an NFL DE (Corey Smith), an NFL LB (Fisher) and three NFL DBs (Holt, Wilson and Williams). He also had gotten a commitment from one of the best QBs to ever play in the ACC in Phillip Rivers.
When O’Brien came in, he was left with decent RBs, but no OL and no QB. Not even a DECENT quarterback on the roster. He was left with an awful OL and even worse, a roster of OL that weren’t going to contribute in the future, so you have to wait for them to leave to free up some scholarships. The WR corp was average. The DL had some decent players, but the LB corp was empty and no depth at DB (especially safety). And the cherry on the top was the pitiful play of the special teams.
O’Brien’s had basically 1.5 recruiting classes and he’s done really well. That first class has had a number of nice surprises in it. The first full class (O’Brien’s second) was terrific and I’ll take one just like it every single year. The third class (class 2.5) isn’t going to be great, but there’s going to be a number of players that fit very specific holes and it will contribute.
One of the biggest things working against us is depth. We don’t have 85 guys on the roster. We’re probably not going to have 85 until the year after next.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBv5auITPvc
Enjoy!
I like TOB’s decision to start Wilson. He opens up our offense more. I would like to see us run some option type plays like Florida does and Wilson can do that. Hopefully Eugene will be back also and that opens up our offense even more. Would not be surprised if TOB rotates Wilson and Beck some, especially if we get behind by a couple of touchdowns. Then I would not be surprised to see Beck in the shotgun. One good thing going for us going into Clemson is they got OL problems and we got a good D line and that makes winning possible if we avoid turnovers. And thank god Beck didn’t transfer. The joke around Maryland is Frid. won’t be run out of town, they going to fork lift him out!
Noah - Your list really has the luxury of hindsight.
We know that one player from last year’s team is already in the NFL. We could have a future NFL running back or two, we could even, gasp - have future NFL OLs…I suspect, he inherited at least one future NFL WR.
I guess what I’m saying is that things are bad, but not necessarily that different from what previous regimes - namely Amato and Sheridan inherited. Of course, in year 1 of TOB, we beat ECU and UNC, and we didn’t have the luxury of playing Duke…The UMd and Wake teams that TOB played were vastly superior to the UMd and Wake teams that Amato and Sheridan faced.
In other words, last year’s 5-7 was about as good as a 5-7 team could be - and I thought, represented a solid coaching job. Now, the blowout defeats vs. UMd, Louisville and Clemson - and the performance against UCF weren’t encouraging, but they can be chalked up to transition….just as this year’s USC game can be chalked up to the same. If we are seeing games like those in 2 years, I’ll be very concerned.
Also, it should be noted that even with all of the talent Sheridan inherited, he could only manage 4-7 in his second year. And obviously he was a hell of a coach.
VaWolf82 says: “Against W&M, State had 67 yards rushing on 30 attempts. (Thank God State had Mary to pick on.)”
I didn’t see it that way. I thought we handled William pretty good…
(OK, so I stole that line from Earl Edwards when asked after a 7-6 loss against W&M, how he thought his team played.)
I think - unless total incompetence is proven w/ the existing players - you have to give the guys a chance to see what he can do when he gets his own guys on the roster. The problem w/ Amato isn’t what he did w/ MOC’s guys. The problem is that the longer he stayed, the worse we got.
Eugene seems a little small to be an NFL RB. Barring a miraculous comeback, I doubt anyone even invites Baker to camp. Andre Brown is a guy who could be training camp fodder. But Brown has a habit that drives coaches absolutely insane. He dances. He’ll take the handoff and instead of sticking his nose in there and taking what’s in front of him, he wants to dance around from gap to gap. Do that in training camp and you’ll have a nice man telling you that the coach wants to see you…and bring your playbook.
Curtis Crouch is the only lineman I see who has an NFL body. I don’t need to rehash the problems with Curtis Crouch though.
At WR, there are plenty of good college players, but I don’t see any that have the combination of size and speed to be an NFL guy. We’ll see though…
And the problem with Amato was that once Doc Holliday left, he couldn’t recruit anymore. That was it.
He had more problems than that.
Well, only if you count: Being unable to spot talent unless it has a Florida zip code and being unable to keep a coaching staff together “problems.” If you’re going to get all nitpickey, than yeah…
The guy spent his career here doing the equivalent of chasing shiney objects. Instead of building an OL and/or signing D-1 level QBs, he was obsessed with recruiting 190-pound “Athletes” from Miami.
VaWolf, I was speaking in general terms about only this upcoming game, not the season. I’m not saying we will win or I expect it; CU is a much more skilled team, but with Tammy and a few favorable bounces, you never know, and they certainly looked terrible vs Bama. We somehow managed to beat ECU and UVA last year with Daniel Evans at QB (hard to believe now, I know).
If we can move the ball reasonably well, play solid defense, and keep it within 2TDs, I will be content.
Potential NFL talent? Hmmm. Only considering upperclassmen, I’d say Anthony Hill, Andre Brown, and perhaps Eugene and Antoine Holmes may get a look. None of those guys are first day players though.
Reading some of these NEWEST comments about our somehow SUDDENLY NEW and IMPROVED offensive line kind of reminds of Linus, in “A Charlie Brown Christmas”.
“I never thought it was such a bad offensive line afterall. All it needed was a little love.”
Then they all join in and sing…
Ole TomO’Brien, Ole TomO’Brien, how faithful…
Noah,
You say, “Curtis Crouch is the only lineman I see who has an NFL body. I don’t need to rehash the problems with Curtis Crouch though.”
Vermiglio is a 6′-3″ 315 lbs and reportedly is athletic for that size, is sophomore and started some games at left tackle as a true freshman. I don’t know quite what an NFL body looks like but those stats have got to be close enough for government work. What is it about this guy that has you disregard his prospects of playing in the pros?
greywolf,
Vermiglio was brought in by the current staff. i thought the discussion was about what amato left for TOB. if you include all the current o linemen, you have to mention RJ Mattes. his dad was a pro, he wants to be a pro, and i wouldn’t bet against it. but he’s not going to play this year i’m sure.
McPete,
I missed that it was about the players that Amato left. I had rather talk about now and what we have for the future. Complaining about what Amato left is like his complaining about Akron’s players.
My apologies to Noah, even though I wasn’t calling him to task. I really did wonder what was missing for Vermiglio. (He has gone from starting tackle to back-up guard and I really did wonder if Noah knew something.
i just rewatched the game on ACCSelect. I missed alot of the 2nd half. One thing i didn’t realize was that W&M blitzed on almost every down. So not only is it disheartening that DE couldn’t throw the ball, but that he didn’t recognize it. All those little dink and dunk passes should have been there for him. And as much as you guys think it was Beck’s long throws that opened up the field, i think it was just as much hitting the underneath routes as well. I am not that concerned with the OL. If you firesale rush (or whatever its called) there’s no way you got enough guys to block all of them so you just have to get rid of the ball, Beck made some pretty good decisions. There were some of those plays where Beck rolled the pocket and hit George Bryan. I can’t believe you guys haven’t talked about Bryan more; the guy looked like a seasoned veteran out there, awesome footwork.
I think the WR’s are really coming around.
What’s not been mentioned is that once Beck and the WR’s started hooking up, it really opened up the running game. AB and CW had some nice runs in the 2nd half; especially about the time Curtis Crouch came in.
Noah, i’ve seen Meares Green do that thing you noticed last year where he just gives a high-five or a low-five to the DT as he’s barrleing at the QB, hopefully crouch will just win that job cuz the OL looked alot better when he was out there.
I’ve read where some of us are terrified of what is going to happen to Russell Wilson against Clempson because of our OL, how it’s no wonder Evans couldn’t pass because the OL, how we need 4 to 5 seconds to get a pass off. I checked the stats and we gave up 2 sacks against SC and 2 sacks against W&M. Before the “Ol sucks” crowd points out the Beck had to elude tacklers several times, let me ask did you see the Panthers/Chargers game? Me too. PR had to dodge the Panthers pass rush more than a few times.
Not only did we allow only 4 sacks in the 2 games, we sacked the Cocks and Tribe QBs exactly twice that number. So where does the fear of Russell getting killed come from? Why would it be “criminal” for Glennon to have played, not that I am suggesting he does.
Wilson is going to get hit every time he runs the ball and we plan to run him more than once. The problem we are having or were having with offense in the first half vs SC could well be getting adjusted to playing an offense that NONE of our players is accustomed to playing.
Meares Green missed a block or two and when he did it looked terrible. Neal (#14) missed a tackle or 2. There were some missed blocks and tackles on Sunday, too. It seems to me that some of us delight in profiling some of our players and then posting complaints about them that fit their profiles. If Meares is out there, he is the best we have at that position that is not being disciplined by being held out.