As you no doubt know by now, the Georgia Bulldogs advanced to the CWS yesterday, shit-canning the Pack Nine 17-8. I was disappointed, but in no way surprised or really upset.
Elliott Avent has been at State a long damned time. He has not won an ACC title, and twice bumped up against the “Sendek glass ceiling” - losing in the Super Regionals (i.e., Sweet Sixteen). His teams are consistently pretty good, but never great. Do I think Avent’s a great coach? No. Do I want him replaced? No.
You may ask yourself whether I am being intellectually inconsistent. But I have different standards for revenue sports (football and mens’ basketball) than the non-revenue world, even high profile non-revenue sports (baseball and womens’ basketball). And I think that’s completely fair.
Championships and major milestones (such as reaching the CWS) in non-revenue sports are to be celebrated and rewarded - but not necessarily expected. Analogize it to the business world - one would expect more out of a $750K salaried executive VP than a $60K salaried middle manager. The executive VP is well compensated for the demands of the job, which includes “no excuses” responsibility for the bottom line. “Solid” performance by the middle manager might mean smaller raises and being passed over for promotions. But rarely does that mean a pink slip is forthcoming. And the salaries we have paid Avent over the last decade haven’t made him set financially for life.
That does NOT mean non-revenue sports coaches should have lifetime contracts. Obvious failures like George Tarantini should have been fired many years ago. And it also does not mean that the athletic department should fail to strive for championships. Coaches that do achieve the highest level of success should be paid for it. As a Wolfpack Club member, I would heartily endorse part of our dues going to a “Champions Fund” which paid significant bonuses for non-revenue coaches leading the Pack to ACC titles and major national milestones. Give coaches a tangible reason to strive for the top rather than settle for the middle, and give aspiring “star” coaches an incentive to come here (note to Lee Fowler - offering de facto lifetime “no expectations” employment does not entice star-caliber people).
Also, one can argue as to whether baseball is truly a non-revenue sport. Like womens’ hoops, I think that it is - just a high profile one. Yes, I am generally more aware of (and interested in) Wolfpack baseball and womens’ hoops than, say, gymanstics or soccer. But really, who knows anything about the ACC’s television contract for baseball? Did anyone care about ACC expansion’s impact on that? How many games are even televised, prior to the tourney stage? How much are you charged for admission? Hell, just look at the newspaper coverage - Chip Alexander might as well be writing about Pee Wee soccer. It’s all mellow, “feel good” stuff, with lots of human interest angles. No detailed anaylsis, mostly just “great win” or “tough loss.” This is not the pressure cooker of ACC mens’ basketball, and the media coverage and fan interest bear that out.
I agree with you about Avent and that baseball is definitly a non-revenue sport. I go to a lot of the games and I think that anytime 17 and under get in free it should be classified as non-revenue.
I think it’s a revenue sport at some places. I’m sure Fullerton makes money off their program. Probably the true elite programs do as well.
I’m not disappointed because they exceeded expectations, and let’s face it, super-regional in baseball here is a good year. Hopefully this is a stepping stone for what is to come.
I like the idea of the Champion Fund. This way, we as fans can demand the success that LF does not. Are there other universities with similar funds?
The recent statistical look at achievement across the athletic department certainly indicates that there are lots of low hanging fruit that would need to addressed before we get to baseball. Baseball had a good year and achieved more than just about any other sport - that’s worth 2 yr immunity from getting voted off the island. Now the rest of the deadwood idling around Raleigh…
If I was AD or Chancellor - that would be part of an incentive package. (I’d actually have several incentives, not just limited to championships.)
Like you, I don’t think baseball is the problem. I would say, however, that a program like this is the most difficult to manage. If you are doing some good things, but can’t quite turn the corner - it makes decisions on that employee difficult. (In this case, you’d have an operation making profits, meeting base expectations every year, but never really exceeding them or doing anything special.)
Times like these, perhaps a change is best for both parties if you ever want to exceed expecations.
The last thing we need is the boobs upstairs making changes- they always make things worse.
Has coach Avent maxed out hos potential? Is the Super Regionals as high as he can go?
hpd - I’m not sure. He has been here a long time - and it’s as far as he’s gotten. The good news is that he’s gotten here before. The bad news is that he hasn’t gotten past it or won ACC tournament title.
The optimist in me thinks that - especially w/ Holliday as an assistant - we can turn the corner. However, I think it’s only logical to wonder if one can get any farther. He’s been here since the 1997 season.
It’s one of those things that can’t be proven one way or the other. However, if you judge him by his record at NC State, I do think it’s fair to say, “why would you think things will change” - since he’s coached 12 seasons.
I would also note that I wouldn’t call this “accepting mediocrity”…his results are pretty good. However, one has to wonder if we’ll ever get any farther than we got this year. And like I said, that’s impossible to answer.
To me, Avent’s 12 years is a little hard to evaluate. He’s had two distinct periods: the early years at the ‘old’ Doak and the later years at the ‘new’ Doak. That facility change made a big difference in his ability to recruit. We need to see how much difference the new stadium makes.
I like the idea of having the ‘Champion Fund’. My only question is: Who would manage it and make the allocation decisions? It scares me to death to think Jed would be in charge of it.
As someone who has called Avent “Sendek 2.0″, I think a very fair analogy would be comparing his hiring of Holliday to Sendek’s hiring of Larry Hunter. Avent has, in fact, said that he didn’t make one pitching decision all year. I think adding a great coach like Holliday has really elevated our team, much like adding Hunter elevated the basketball team.
Now, I never would think that Avent would be in any danger of losing his job. Let’s get real. He definitely has a longer leash than other coaches, and that is saying something. See Tarantini, George and Kerrigan, Laura. Who do they report to? That’s right. Him again.
I went to the Wolfpack Club Caravan in Raleigh a couple of weeks ago and Avent was by far the most entertaining coach that talked. He is very engaging and funny. I thought that if I was a HS kid looking at State that I would like to play for Avent.
My concern is that he has reached his ceiling. I hope not, but 11 years without a title nor CWS appearance is a bummer to me. And the ACC is tough. Miami and FSU are always good. And in the past few years, UNC has been one of the top 3 teams in the country. Clemson had an aberration this year. Virginia, Georgia Tech, and Wake are usually pretty good. This is an extremely tough conference. Even as good as we were this year, we were only 4th in the conference.
Our best recruits seem to never come here (get drafted and go pro (Hamilton, Upton for example), not that I can blame them) and we always have one area where we are average at best every year. That comes back to bite us. This year, our hitting wasn’t anything real special. A couple of years our bullpen wasn’t great. Some years, we only have one really good starter. It always is something.
I think that baseball is one of the last Wolfpack sports that needs to be tinkered with AT THIS TIME. With so much mediocrity (or worse) across the Wolfpack board, there are many other kinks in the armor that have a higher priority for improvement. If, however, the Athletics Department as a whole should show marked improvement in both administrative performance as well as athletic achievement, (not under you-know-who’s watch, of course!), then maybe baseball should be addressed from the perspective of raising expectations and performance.
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Not making excuses for Avant’s record but, HE IS AT NC STATE afterall, and based just on his history HERE, he is about the brightest star we have hanging around any program coaching wise. Not bad, but nothing to brag on, that is unless just making making the post season is still the standard to judge a coach by.
“It’s one of those things that can’t be proven one way or the other. However, if you judge him by his record at NC State, I do think it’s fair to say, “why would you think things will change” - since he’s coached 12 seasons.”
Just because things haven’t happened before doesn’t mean they can’t happen. We’ll never know what Herb’s ceiling was just as we don’t know what Coach Avent’s is. That 1st inning yesterday was about as improbable & frustrating as watching Vandy come back & win that game in the NCAAs.
IMHO, we let things get too far out of hand in the first inning. However, based on continued scoring by the Bulldogs, it didn’t change the outcome. It was a frustrating day for all but I congratulate the team on a great season. Hope I can make some games next year. Go Pack.
I’m with old13. NCSU Baseball ain’t what needs fixing first.
Am I the only one who perceives an upward trend in the Avent/Holliday era? Last year–made a regional. This year–won a regional, won a game in a super regional. Next two years are important for the program…will they capitalize on the program’s success to go to the next level, or will they slip back into the middle of the pack in the ACC with Clemson, GaTech, and Virginia…
UNC built themselves into a solid top 5 national, top 3 ACC (those are the same thing) perennial CWS participant in 5 or 6 years…will we turn the same corner with the extra boost Holliday gives us?
Keep in mind, I like Avent and don’t have any problem w/ him being retained. It will also be interesting to see how recruiting w/ the “new” baseball facility goes.
Lie redfred said, he’s probably the most successful coach of the high interest sports.
I think that a Coach is often as good as the people he hires. And Coach Avent has hired an awesome Pitching Coach in Holladay who has major CWS wins with ASU and Texas — almost the Norm Chow of pitching coaches — and he will continue to get us better talent in many areas. Lets not get impatient –again — and let this progress.
BK - I think that’s a good point. The only problem is where does the genius lie? Holliday is not a spring chicken. I think he’s a great coach, and like I said, I’m in Avent’s corner - but if you need a Norm Chow to be successful, let’s just say that’s not a great sign…Because there’s only 1 Norm Chow, and NC State being where it is in the baseball pecking order (and most sports in general) - what happens when that person leaves for greener pastures?
Please look at this hypoethetically, not as a position on Avent at present.
I disagree. I feel like we should expect excellence in every sport. I understand that mid-level managers aren’t compared against CEO’s…but they are compared against other mid-level managers. Point being, each job demands success at each level. Mediocrity is never tolerated at any level, and if it is…you’re working for the wrong organization.
I don’t think it really matters revenue vs non-revenue sports. Coaches for every sport should be expected to win and advance the program within reasonable expectations. One of the biggest truths in business (and any other manager would agree with me) is that the results of your team oftentimes match your expectations. If you expect mediocrity…that’s exactly what your team (or coaches)will give you. I hope Lee Fowler is reading this…
I have to agree, I don’t get worked up over Coach Avent although I really feel he has maxed out and would like to see the Pack 9 go to Omaha but don’t really want him fired. One reason is that we are, and I hate to say it, behind the baseball schools in facilities. In the ACC we are at a minimum behind FSU, Miami and Clemson now. We’ll be behind the Heels as soon as their renovation is finished. In close proximity, we’ll be farther behind South Carolina when they open their new stadium.
As for Coach Avent, IMHO he just doesn’t have that good of a reputation among the NC travel teams and players and that is in a state, North Carolina, that is generally considered one of the top five in the country in turning out quality high school baseball players (behind only California, Florida, Texas and Georgia). I personally believe you have to at a minimum hold your own in recruiting your home state in baseball, even more so than in football, to be consistently competitive. North Carolina and Fox appear to be the darlings on the North Carolina travel ball circuit as they have been focusing on this area for several years – well before they ever went to Omaha the first time. They have a good reputation and are highly visible – something the Pack hasn’t necessarily been.
The reason for having to hold your own with in-state recruiting has been because baseball was limited to 11.7 scholarships. Therefore players received partials. The Heels have been getting quality instate position players to come to play there for several years for almost peanuts and saving the $$$ to give bigger percentage money to bigtime pitchers. I know that two in-state position players on the UNC team (they’re friends with my son) that started in the two College World Series only got $500 - $1000 (basically book money) per year (approximately 4 to 7% of one scholarship) to go there. This frees up a lot of money for the pitchers.
Now the baseball scholarship rules change this coming fall. If a player gets any athletic scholarship money, he will have to get a minimum of 25% with a maximum of 27 players on a 35 man roster Fall roster receiving money. UNC & South Carolina have historically brought in 12-18 players per year and essentially had Fall tryouts sending the players they didn’t want off to JuCo and smaller schools. No more.
Hopefully, these changes may help NCSU and Avent in state as UNC will run out of money quicker. I certainly hope so.
Wake me up when it is football season.
Sorry for the thread hijack, but check out the good news for Vinny!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3433896
I believe Coach Avent’s job should be secure for now. However, I believe every coach at State should know that they are expected to compete for conference championships and national championships on a consistent basis. I am not saying to fire a coach because he has had two to three down years, but should a coach go an extended period of time and not compete for a conference championship then it may be time for a change. WE should expect exellence at every level whether it is baseball, soccer or basketball. Every school we compete against is in the same boat for the non-revenue sports. Although there are a number of schools where baseball may very well be considered a revenue producing sport.
Anyone who thinks we have somehow “separated” ourselves from Clemson, GaT (both who seen Omaha multiple times recently) and even Virginia is fooling themselves. We have not distinguished ourselves from the middle tier and probably will not. I’m sure Clemson and Tech would argue that they are top tier. The ACC is damn tough. That is fine, but do not delude yourselves. It’s obvious that Tom Holliday has made a significant impact on the program in short order, and although I have no earthly idea how Avent was able to pull him in, I hope we have the insight to keep him. This has not routinely been our calling card. He will help recruiting dramatically (whether he’s hands-on involved or not) and will at least solidify our position as a contender. How did Avent get Tom anyway? Got to be either goat pictures or a jurisdictional issue (just kidding).
BJD- you’re a good writer… but, seriously. You make no mention of Holliday, no mention of the fact that the incoming class (and previous ones) are increasingly better. This is complete tripe. “State lost, let’s dump and bitch”… You’re better than that. (OK, maybe I’m grumpy today… related to the 4 hour hospital visit…)
NCSSLIM- see the Georgia/State preview– there is a link in the comments describing how Holliday arrived (he’s a longtime friend of Avent’s)
In other news.. did anyone see that Vinny Del Negro was offered the Bulls job?
Not a bad gig.. and you get the first draft pick in the next draft!
BJD- after a thorough reading, I retract my vitriol… Doesn’t seem like you were dumping (too much, anyway).
SFN, I disagree with you totally on the importance of non-revenue sports.
I believe we ought to selectively emphasize one or more non-revenue sports and build a national championship caliber program. Hire the best coaches, pay the bucks, improve that sports facilities and not just win, but dominate. Looke at what Wake has done in the non revenue sports. Look at Duke. UNC certainly has made some decisions along this line.
State has never dominated in anything on a national scale. With all due respect, we aren’t likley to do that in FB or BB either.
Think of how our image and self-respect would change if we just had one model program to built a university sports program around. I really don’t care which one it is, along as it has an ACC championship. Cross Counntry is the closest thing we have, but it has never brought a national championship.
The money it would take to build a non-revenue program is generally peanuts. What, maybe a few million a year.
NC State has never sustained success, except in Cross Country. We get a good coach, he builds a program and then what– either he leaves or becomes disenchanted with the lack of investment in his program.
What if we had emphasized baseball when Espo was here, invested in the facilities, did everything top notch from travel, game emphasis, recruiting budget, support staff, and declared we expect to compete for national championships, and assessed coaching and AD performance according to stated goals. Good Lord, do you not think we would have something to be proud of by now. We would probably have a $30M stadium the likes of which are going up all over the place in college ball.
Instead we have a tiny, but nice little underfunded new stadium, with no leg room, no cover over the fans, no room to expand, and in the ugliest part of campus. How do you like the view of the motor pool area when you drive in from Western.
For the life of me, the administrators at NCSU continue to f%^k things up. Instead of putting a new ball field over on Centenial or someplace where there was room for one, they stick it where it will always be second class.
And, guess what, they put the tennis center right next to it. Our university architects and planners should be sh&^ canned.
I overheard a wolfpacker trying to explain to his SC budddy at the Sunday night game about how NCSU was in a budget crunch when the staduium was being built. The SC fan was asking some obvious questions. And the alumni was putting a positive spin on it, but it sure was painful to listen to.
Instead of having 10 average minor sport facilities, I would take 2 cream of the crop, 3 highly competitive, and 5 shi^^t facilities over 10 average ones any day.
Heck, if we were competitive in just something, I think our alumni would rally areound it and provide all the financial support needed for that program.
Non rev? What world are those that contest living in?
4 FREAKING outlets on the tube for college baseball and you deem it non rev?
Ya know …awh forget it…there still is not a freaking SINGLE one of you that has been able to answer the question posed more than once here!
Never before and never since. NCCA milestone and baseball was a big part of it. I don’t even wish to pose the question again. What’s the point if you don’t already know the answer. It is something that every true Pack heart should know.
The Wolfpack is the only school to have done it and 35 yrs. later plus an eternity before…come on what’s the answer?
Cool, Badger. My post was just to indicate why I wasn’t bitching and moaning about missing the CWS. I’m totally fine letting Avent run his program and see what happens (since it’s not football or mens’ hoops). If he wins an ACC title or makes the CWS, I hope he is compensated for it nicely.
all college sports started as Non Revenue.
when Vegas has “a line” then it’s revenue.
UNX is building diamond “facilities”.
follow the money.
A couple of thoughts on some posts above:
1) I don’t know of any corporation that fires a significant % of their workforce if they are in the upper-echelon of their division unless there are other differences or unless the corporation has had stellar results.
2) I like the idea of seeing where Avent can go w/ the new facilities. We got some good pub (up until the first inning Sunday) this weekend
3) You have to put the non-revenue sports and their results in perspective. A lot of hiring and firing spends more $$ in these sports than you can hope to recoup. However, as BJD correctly mentions, there are some coaches at NC State who don’t meet the basic criteria for keeping their jobs.
4) In addition to the bonuses - if coaches won a certain # of titles - I’d make sure that their pay was comparable to the elite in the business.
“(note to Lee Fowler - offering de facto lifetime “no expectations” employment does not entice star-caliber people).”
The board of trustees and other influentials need to raise the expectations of the athletic director. Until that is done the fact the current athletic director is very comfortable with the status quo
will not change. That comfort zone with no additional pressure on the athletic director is exactly what the university is getting & it will not change until those at the top of the university re-define the AD’s job.
The other problem is our locale among the other two major universities in the Triangle neighborhood. Those schools put an extraordinary amount of emphasis on the non-revenue sports and specifically the Sears Cup for overall athletic success that Stanford usually owns on a regular basis.
I have a good friend who is very close & active with the Duke athletic dept. One of his good friends sat on the search board for their recent athletic director search. My friend said the thing that surprised the search board member the most when talking to many major athletic department members who were interested in the Duke job was
the level of NON-interest at most other schools across the nation in the Sears Cup.
These were major schools with very succesful athletic depts. such as Michigan, Oklahoma, etc. and when asked about their Sears Cup emphasis overwhelmingly most said the Sears Cup was NOT a priority at their school. They were only interested in the success of the revenue sports and maybe a couple of non-revenues that they were regularly successful with.
The point is the Jones’ next door think the Sears Cup (aka-emphasis on non revenue success) is important but it isn’t in most other college neighborhoods. So locally the media will harp on it just because the blues harp on it.
Finally the thing I like about Avent is his positive, confident approach particularly when dealing with the media. After the 10-6 win vs. UGa, a reporter three times kept asking how Avent felt regarding Uga’s undefeated record in home elimination games. Finally Avent responded by saying we (State) are not worried about teams that played 10 years ago because we are only playing this year’s UGa team. Yes, we did get pelted but Avent wouldn’t fall for the reporter’s attempt to dig out doubt in our baseball team’s psychie. (It wouldn’t surprise me if it was Chip Alexander since he was the reporter who kept hounding Amato about losing to the “likes” of Akron more than a week after the game until Amato finally broke.)
I would love to have Ray Tanner back but we could do much worse than Avent.
ummmm… ‘73 baseball, football and basketball teams all ACC champions?
Holliday will get us over the hump.
Thank goodness we beat USC. Had we not, we’re talking textbook NC State fan meltdown. With that said, I don’t know where we would be without Holiday. Our pitching toted the load this year and the team often won despite our lack of bats. If Holiday goes, and assuming so does the pitching, I think the heat rises on Avent. Until then I agree with most, as far as proven results (on the field/court/etc) we don’t have a better program at the school.
Pretty sad…
Plywood, I think you are correct.
regarding Doak Field…was it designed/constructed with a second set of renovations/expansions in mind?
DAMN PLYWOOD…Gave up on it. Hope you find this.
Answer is yes! Well done my man.
Never before and never since has a single school swept what most right thinking people consider the 3 men’s majors within their conference.
I can now lay this to rest.
“The board of trustees and other influentials need to raise the expectations of the (ENTIRE DAMN ADMINISTRATION, WITH REGARDS TO ACADEMICS AS WELL AS ATHLETICS, STARTING AT THE VERY TIP TOP WITH CHANCELLOR, JAMES OBLINGER, then working their way down to the asleep at the wheel) athletic director.”
redfred tell us how you really feel!
LMAO, very funny comment
One of the questions you have to ask is…does he not only deliver a quality product. But what kind of support is he given from his university? Is he competing on a level playing field?
It’s an awful lot to ask a man to win a gun fight when he’s only armed with a butter knife.
I’m not sure what your facilities, recruiting base and budgets are like. But FSU, UNC, GT, Clemson and Miami have some really nice assets.
GT has the East Cobb County feeder system to pull from. And Florida is SWIMMING in baseball talent.
Little story:
UGA has had the same swimming coach for 25 or so years. For the first 15 years of his career, he did ok. Nothing special. But nothing embarrassing. Around 1994, we built the finest Swimming and Diving facility in the nation.
5 years later, he finished either 1st or 2nd in women’s swimming for 8 consecutive years (4 first and 4 second place). He now coaches the Olympic Swimming Team.
Like I said…I have no idea if you’re giving him the tools or not. I just know that he is a tool. lol.