Trestman Follow-up x3

It was only a few weeks ago that it seemed as though NC State’s Offensive Co-ordinator, Marc Trestman, was really coming into his own as a play caller and leader of the Wolfpack’s offense. We talked about it in this great entry.

But it doesn’t take long for that tune to change after a couple of weeks of horrendous offensive output against two poor defenses.

To be clear – we aren’t looking to conentrate undue amounts of criticism on Trestman because of just a couple of tough performances. Hell, in light of the fact that just a couple of weeks ago we were highlighting Trestman’s successes, then I’d say that we are pretty consistent in our conviction to talk about whatever the relevant topics of the football team are whenever they arise. We can’t help what reality; we can only discuss and analyze reality.

With ^this in mind, three very interesting related items popped up on our radar today that deserve note today.

(1) First is Section Six’s statistical analysis that “Trestman’s system peaked in its very first game”. I have often discussed with friends that I thought that the mix of offensive execution and play calling was fantastic in last year’s home opener vs Virginia Tech.

The Pack’s first possession of the game–and Trestman’s first series calling plays in college–was a fantastic 14 play, 83 yard drive that ate up six minutes and was capped by a 25-yard Darrell Blackman touchdown run. Though we ended up losing, I remember being excited about the offense’s marked improvement.

I spent the rest of 2005 wondering where that offense went. Now we’re two-thirds through 2006 and I’m still wondering.

But, take a look at the yardage numbers from the first few games of last year compared to the last thirteen games since Andre Brown had a career day against C-USA’s Southern Miss sqaud last year. In the 18 games that have followed Trestman’s first two games last year vs Virginia Tech and Eastern Kentucky, the Wolfpack has:

* gained over 350 yards only once (Andre Brown’s big performance vs So Miss).

* gained 300 or fewer yards in 12 of the last 18 games

* scored only three points in the first quarter of the past seven games.

* failed to score more than 24 points in EVERY game

(2) A poster on Pack Pride’s message boards takes ^Section Six’s analysis a step further and did an analysis of total points scored by the Wolfpack through 8 games.

NC State has scored only 148 points through 8 games this season. Over the last 20 years NC State has only ONCE scored less points through eight games than have been scored this season. That was the 4-7 season in 1987 when the Pack was shut-out twice and managed only three points against Wake Foresta 3rd. 7 of the 20 seasons have seen the Wolfpack fail to score at least 200 points at this point of the season – 2 of those 7 occurences have been turned-in by Marc Trestman.

(3) The post-game “Good & the Bad” article at Pack Pride is really good this week. The following quote is very insightful into the conversation about Trestman and what is wrong with the Wolfpack’s offense. We haven’t seen any of this – or any of the statistical information – in the mass media.

No Identity: Watch teams across college football and you generally know what they are going to do on offense… you get a feel for their offensive philosophy.

Wake Forest is going to run the ball out of a spread formation, using misdirection, reverses, and counters… but you can count on them to continue running the football. BC is going to play smashmouth football and come at you with playaction. UVA, as mentioned early, will use their athletic offensive line to run stretches, screens, and bootleg leads. Clemson is going to pound away with a strong offensive line and C.J. Spiller and James Davis. The question is, what is NC State’s identity?

I think this remains a question because of offensive coordinator Marc Trestman and his west coast offense that is being instilled from his NFL background. Teams like UVA, Wake, and BC almost appear too simplistic on offense, however they are effective because they know exactly what they are going to do and practice, practice, practice those same formations every day of the week. With NC State, you never know if they are going to come out in five-wides or three-wides, the power-I or split backs, shotgun with two tight ends or shotgun with two tailbacks… you get the idea. NC State appears to be TOO “multiple” on offense.

Realistically, can that offensive unit practice sufficiently ALL of those different formations or packages in practice and be expected to operate flawlessly without mistakes on Saturdays? College football isn’t the NFL. You don’t get to practice plays eight hours a day and work on various formations throughout the week because the NCAA limits practice time. This could be an underlying factor in NC State’s consistent problems with missed assignments, illegal formations, and illegal shifts on offense.

NC State needs to find that identity. They need to find out what they really want to do on offense and base everything else off of it. Do they want to go to a no-huddle offense with Daniel Evans and keep him comfortable while using an emerging group of wideouts? Do they want to run, run, and run the ball with their two tailbacks like Clemson does each week?

Whatever it is, they need to find it because as the saying goes, practice makes perfect, and maybe there just isn’t enough time to practice and perfect everything NC State is currently doing on offense.

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'06 Football General

91 Responses to Trestman Follow-up x3

  1. Micky McCarthy 10/30/2006 at 11:28 AM #

    I agree with the assessment that Trestman is trying to squeeze too much out of players in a college system

    I also think the staff is trying TOO hard to spread the ball around to all of the weapons that we have, rather than sticking to a core group of 3 to 4 receivers and 2 backs.

    Look at Ohio State, Texas, Michigan, and other programs that are also loaded at the skill positions. Players have to earn their touches by working hard in practice and not making mistakes on game day, and the coaches reciprocate by sticking to a limited number of players.

    No matter how talented, make the young players pay their dues before sticking them out on the field.

  2. redfred2 10/30/2006 at 11:33 AM #

    I asked the question months ago. Should we expect to see all of the offensive recruits being redshirted and sitting out until they only have 1 or 2 seasons of eligibitity left, in order to learn this offense.

    discounting athleticism + over complicated offenses= NC State athletics

  3. joe 10/30/2006 at 12:07 PM #

    Since Holtz was hired, the Pack has failed to score more than 24 points in a game only once, in 1985 which was Reed’s final season. The UNC game may the best shot for the Pack to top the 24 point barrier.

  4. RAWFS 10/30/2006 at 12:12 PM #

    “Since Holtz was hired, the Pack has failed to score more than 24 points in a game only once, in 1985 which was Reed’s final season.”

    Say, what, again?

  5. Mr O 10/30/2006 at 12:24 PM #

    I think he is saying the last time we didn’t score at least 24 points in one of our games for an entire season was 1985.

    We have good players on offense.

  6. partialqualifier 10/30/2006 at 12:33 PM #

    Great job with all of the analysis of the UVa game. Even better job putting this offense into the context of the past 20 years. I was in Charlottesville, and that was one of the worst college football games I have ever seen. The truely sad part was that high paid Marc Trestman with all of the experience in the world was out-coached by Al Groh’s son….a young inexperienced OC with a redshirt freshman QB. How in the Hell does that happen….again?

    I spent a restless Saturday night (yea…I know…I need to let go..LOL) wondering how I should feel. Obviously I was very, very angry…but what was perplexing was that I honestly feel like our program is in really good shape. If, and I know this is a HUGE IF, we could only have a decent offense this FB team would be 5-3 or 6-2 and we all would be happy. The defense has played well enough to win in all but one game…especially given that they are always on the field. Special Teams could be better, but hell it is still better than 90% of Special Teams at State in the last 25 years. Our fans are great…we finally have a real home-field advantage. Our kids always paly hard. But our offense is KILLING us!! It is killing our season…but worse it is killing our entire program! The perception is that NC State’s FB program is barrelling over a cliff…when the reality is, other than the worst offense in Division 1 football everything else is better now than ever before…by a longshot!

    I was so glad to see today that SFN and RAWFS are seeing what I am seeing. The sad part is, as much as I would like to see Amato succeed at State I have very little confidence that he will go out and get an OC that can turn this thing around. Because make no mistake, if Cignetti at UNC…or Norm Chow…or any numerous others were running this offense…we would be all talking about going to Jacksonville as opposed to calling for heads.

  7. Mr O 10/30/2006 at 12:40 PM #

    Partialqualifier: Nice comments. When you look at the offensive roster, we have some really good players. We have a solid group of 4 receivers(Blackman, Dunlap, Barrett and Bowens), 2 very good RBs, a QB who IMO gives any OC a chance to succeed, and a very good TE. Our OL play is IMO serviceable with the collection of talent at the skill positions.

    We should at least be an average offense. But we aren’t even close.

  8. Par Shooter 10/30/2006 at 1:07 PM #

    Not to be a pimp for SFN, but it really all boils down to the 2 issues discussed recently on the site – the horrid OL and questionable play-calling.

    In fairness to Trestman, it has got to be very difficult to get any rhythm in play calling with such a poor OL. Between penalties and negative yardage plays, we end up in all kinds of bad spots for an OC. I don’t think that Trestman always does a good job of masking our ineffectiveness in run blocking but he actually did OK in covering for poor pass protection until the last 2 weeks. I’ve said going into the last 2 years that we’d be as good as our OL and unfortunately, that’s been correct and our OL has stunk. I really hoped that the removal of Barry and Morris would combine to make this line hungry and sound but its basically a carbon copy of years past.

    I wonder if Chuck has so alienated Marty Galbraith that he would be unwilling to return to coach our OL. While he took some flak as a play caller, I always thought he was a very good OL coach. Anyone know where he is these days?

  9. colapack 10/30/2006 at 1:09 PM #

    Off subject, but as for coaching styles, you definately notice a much more involved and hands-on approach with all the top 10 programs with the head coaches of those programs. It is different for Bowden Sr. and CTC.

  10. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 10/30/2006 at 1:10 PM #

    Congratulations to the NC State Rugby team for winning the state championship this weekend. Once again demonstrating that luxury suites, underwater tredmills and hundreds of millions of dollars don’t win championships but hard work, determination and dedication is the key to being a champion.

  11. Mike 10/30/2006 at 1:16 PM #

    There people go again criticizing Trestman. He is a smart man with NFL experience. He is a great OC.

    What is the NC State identity? Toss sweeps where we cant block the corner to get the back outside, swing passes to the back where we cant block or chip the end, and dump passes where a receiver catches the ball 4 yards beyond the line standing still.

    I’m not blaming Stone, not blaming Evans, not blaming Jay Davis. It all starts with the teacher. Heck, Davis was very impressive in TB camp this summer – they were impressed with his talent. The OC needs to bring out the talent in the players. The OC needs to come up with a system that suits his players. We have some great talent, but our scheme is awful.

  12. partialqualifier 10/30/2006 at 1:29 PM #

    Mr O…you are right on about not even being close to decent. We are resonable people…mobody is asking that we look like Texax Tech or OK State or USC….but damn….can we at least look as good as App State on offense?

    As for Par Shooter….

    I will give you that this OLine is struggling, but when you are as predictable as Trestman is teams often have more coming than u can defend. Also NC State has NEVER been known for strong OLine play, but yet other coaches over the past 25 years have been able to muster something that resembles a college level offense. Certainly Anthony Barbour wasnt running behind any ALL Americans when he wa at State, yet he managed a pretty damn good career with the Pack. Coaching isnt about having the best talent, it’s about taking what you have and making it as good as humanly possible. Using any parameters on earth…it is impossible to say that Trestman has done that.

  13. partialqualifier 10/30/2006 at 1:33 PM #

    Let me rewite what looks like incoherent babbling in my second paragraph….LOL!

    “when you are predictable as Trestman, teams often send more defenders to the point of attack than you can block”

    There. That makes a little more sense!

  14. waxhaw 10/30/2006 at 1:36 PM #

    The line from Tommy Boy keeps popping into my head while reading this….. “Hi Carol.. Let me tell you why I suck” Insert we for I and it pretty much sums up this season.

  15. Mike 10/30/2006 at 1:38 PM #

    OK, I dont know how to effectively search the archives. I will get blasted by Wolfpack4ever and Noah for this, maybe a few more. I wrote when CTC was interviewing Trestman that I hoped he did not hire him. He was awful then, no reason to think he had improved.

    I wrote it last year and got blasted. I wrote it again this year, and got blasted. Now all of a sudden many are now questioning Trestman.

    Do I have all the answers? No. I have always been taught not to talk about the problems without a solution. I dont have the perfect solution. The fact that our OL is poor does not help. However, it is highly possible out OL might be better given the right teaching and development. Our OL might look better wiht the right play calling. One example – how about DE rolling out to throw? Moving him in the pocket essentially eliminates some of the backside rush (yes I know rolling also eliminates part of the field for throwing). Rolling the pocket can also change the dynamics of a blitz and gives the backs protecting an easier job as well. DE throws very well on the run. Why not try something like this? I would not base my whole offense on the roll out pass, but throw some variables to the D and see how they react.

    Some plays are designed not to be big gainers, some are designed just to see how the D reacts. Some are desgined to set plays up for later. Why run a 5 yard pass on 3rd and 8? It might be the defense has the play stopped elsewhere and to avoid a sack, play the field position game, take the 5 yards and punt. Heard Rivers say it also, sometimes better to take a few yards and punt than throw into coverage and give up an INT. BUT WHY DO WE RUN OUR PRIMARY RECEIVER 5 YARDS AND 3RD AND 8? I see no clue on the offensive (pun intended) side of the ball. And if Trestman is doing exactly what Chuck wants, then he is even more of a clueless idiot than I thought. “This is my offense, I will run it as I see fit. If it does not work, then you can say something, but you hired me to run the O, and I will do it my way” should be Trestman’s answer. After all, with Trestman’s resume, he should be coveted by all teams if he stands up to Chuck and Chuck lets him go.

  16. brown pelican 10/30/2006 at 1:40 PM #

    excellent coaching is excellent teaching—excellent teachers get the most out of their students—our students appear to have more potential than their performance on the field has shown—hence—we ain’t gettin it done with the teaching that is being practiced now—we need to change the methods—the materials—the teachers—or the students—take your pick

  17. tooyoungtoremember 10/30/2006 at 1:41 PM #

    I really hope most of the blame falls on Trestman and not Amato. I agree wholeheartedly with Partialgualifier’s first comment about the state of affairs with the other aspects of our football team.

    Why do we always wait until late in the first or second half to get drives going?

    I think it could be because the players know the 2-minute offense well but the full playbook is too big. Rip 80% of it out and practice what’s left and go with that.

    Unfortunately, it may be too late for Trestman to redeem himself.

  18. tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc 10/30/2006 at 1:44 PM #

    Either Trestman sucks or Amato should of never recruited Jay Davis, Marcus Stone and Daniel Evans. I find it easier to believe that Trestman has no clue what he is doing than the three QB’s that has started under Trestman are not qualified to be playing Division III ball.

  19. RAWFS 10/30/2006 at 1:58 PM #

    Amato didn’t “recruit” Daniel Evans. Evans was given a scholarship when Brent Schaeffer went to UT.

  20. 74eegrad 10/30/2006 at 2:06 PM #

    We all knew that OL recruiting was poor several years ago, and many were predicting bleak days ahead for the OL. Those days are here now. Why recruiting was poor then I don’t recall, but I think we targeted some good guys and whiffed on most of them.

    I am having a hard time criticizing Marc Trestman at this point. If your line can’t block, there aren’t many ways to hide it. You might at least make your opponent spend a lot of time preparing for multiple formations, so he does that. With limited practice time, you have to work on the things you think you can be successful with, and unfortunately for us that doesn’t seem to be much. You end up running the same plays out of multiple formations and that makes your play calling look unimaginative, but you don’t dare call something you haven’t been able to successfully practice. Hell, you can barely accomplish the things you have been practicing. To top it off, someone jumps early or holds and that really limits the play you can call next. We did try throwing on first down, but DE rarely seemed able to pull the trigger downfield, and our short passes were stopped for little gain. We have good wide outs and running backs, and I think DE is a servicable QB if he can get in a groove, but that has only happened once, in the second half of the FSU game.

    Having said all that, there are some mental mistakes I see us repeat that drive me crazy, and you know these guys should have learned better in high school. When it’s third and four you have to go out 5 yards, not three. When you are going to try to draw someone off sides, you have to pay attention to the snap count. In the ACC, the refs will call the dive into the end zone every time. I blame all of the coaches and the players for this stuff.

    One improvement on the penalty front this year is at least we don’t see all of the personal fouls away from the ball and the unsportsman fouls that used to pepper our games. Most of our penalties are of the 5 yard variety, which aren’t as bad. However, with an offense with a limited capability as ours, 5 yarders are still drive killers.

  21. Mr O 10/30/2006 at 2:19 PM #

    Daniel Evans had 21 completions on Saturday. If the OL can’t block, then how did he throw for 220 yards(a career high)?

    The penalties on the OL killed us Saturday, but our OL isn’t that bad at protecting the passer IMO.

  22. StateFans 10/30/2006 at 2:26 PM #

    ^ To the same point….how did the OL protect him enough to beat FSU and BC?

  23. BJD95 10/30/2006 at 2:45 PM #

    My only fear is using Trestman as a scapegoat. We all know that – other than the ONE year of Norm Chow – Chuck Amato has been very “hands on” with respect to his assitants. So, even beyond the “CEO model of accountability” that I subscribe to, there is ample reason to pin much of this on Amato. And I don’t want to do anything to reset Amato’s clock, where expectations are lowered next year b/c it’s the first season with a new coordinator.

    IMHO, the only rationales for retaining Amato are (i) Cowher wants to come, but only after a year off (see last week’s discussion); or (ii) we get to see if there is a “great leap forward” in the third season with the same coordinators.

  24. Mr O 10/30/2006 at 2:48 PM #

    Again, the OL penalties killed us Saturday and against Maryland.

    But is our OL really that bad?

    Andre Brown – YPC = 6.1 yards per carry
    Tony Baker – YPC = 4.2 yards per carry

    Evans – completing 57% if his passes

    We have only given up 13 sacks so far this season. I tried to find ACC stats, but couldn’t locate to see where we stand in sacks allowed.

  25. Mr O 10/30/2006 at 2:51 PM #

    BJD95: I have always been under the impression that Trestman has gotten to do his own thing at NC State. I think the conservative change in our offense last year along with the switch to Stone was after Amato decided to become more hands on.

    Does anyone have any insight as to how the offense is being run?

    We have had serviceable offenses every single year that Trestman was not our OC.

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