Coaching Conversation – Compare all Candidates to Haith
Contrary to many Wolfpackers preconceived notions, the sun did come up today!!
Instead of moping and whining about some slimeball that played us, it is time to turn our sights to the future. We think that most people already have.
Before we get going we want to thank some NC State “insiders” who we understand have been very complimentary of SFN. We understand that few people close to the search have commented on SFN’s accuracy, discretion, and quality of conversation. We very much appreciate the comments:
The Wolfpack Today
* Barring an unknown & unexpected event with some kind of “mystery candidate”, NC State’s coaching search has probably entered a different phase where “Stage B” candidates will need to be properly vetted if they have not already been analyzed by Lee Fowler and team.
* We would be severely disappointed if Fowler had not taken advantage of the last ten days (not to mention the couple of weeks before Sendek’s announcement that Fowler claimed to have knowledge of Sendek’s potential departure) to do his homework. People close to NC State claim that this is not a problem and that Fowler was engaged in creating a contingency plans prior to Barnes & Calipari.
* Relatedly, some in college basketball tell SFN that Lee Fowler’s “shotgun approach” to the market may have hurt NC State’s reputation amongst coaches worse than publicly missing on two of the best names in coaching. Evidently, Fowler (NC State) made so many initial calls to named coaches that had no connection or reason to be interested in leaving their current position that we came across as disorganized and desperate. We understand this. But, we call a little bit of “BS” on this as we don’t think that this ultimately made a difference to anyone whom we had a legitimate shot to land.
The ultimate question now is which candidate will ultimately rise to the top (and why) of the “next tier.”
Standard of Evaluation
One of our biggest pet peeves during this process is to watch and listen to idiots just throw names out of the blue as potential candidates for no legitimate reason or “fit”.
One of the worst mistakes that fans make is taking a potential candidate’s historical record somewhere else and extrapolate it to NC State. Fans have a very bad habit of taking a coach’s overall record and latching on to it as if it would be transferrable to other jobs. Fans need to analyze how a coach has performed compared against the resource base of their past jobs, compared to the historical performance of the schools where they coached, and compared to the performance of their peers during their coaching tenure.
Steve Lavin is a good example of this folly. Many fans just pull up Lavin’s biography and see some decent numbers. They fail to acknowledge that he had one of the five best basketball jobs in America and that his numbers were so unacceptable when framed against the backdrop of his resource base that he was fired after seven years.
Would we be pleased with Lavin’s seven years at UCLA? Probably. But, the real question is, “would he be able to deliver those seven years at NC State today when it was the best that he could do at UCLA after inheriting a program just a couple of years after winning a National Championship and when there was no UNLV with which to contend out west? Probably not. (Click here for more on Lavin)
Frank Haith – State’s Floor Provides Comfort
Many people have asked, “why aren’t you more devastated by the Rick Barnes & John Calipari situation over the last ten days?” The answer lies in what we think is NC State’s “floor” in this search. In other words, “what is the worst that NC State can do?”.
Barring a God-awful mistake like John Brady (that we honestly do not think that the Wolfpack Club would allow to happen), we think that the “worst” that NC State could do is hire Frank Haith. If you don’t know much about Haith, then click here to give yourself a little background.
Step away from all of your pre-conceived notions for a moment. Think about this and realize that State is in a position that the “WORST” (for lack of a better term”) that we can do in this search is get: a current Atlantic Coast Conference head coach who was the lead assistant in the ACC for successful Wake Forest teams before becoming the lead assistant and top recruiter for Rick Barnes at Texas. By all personal accounts, Haith is an articulate, fiery, tireless worker who has valuable ties in local recruiting networks and is going to be a super coach.
And, some people are upset thinking that the search isn’t going well and is supposed to be bad?
Stop thinking that the sky is falling and realize that State’s downside in this search is very limited — a current ACC Head Coach with great upside! What is their to be worried about?
For some more relevant and poignant discussion related to Haith and the obstacle of him currently coaching within the ACC, please click here.
Scoop
* As you have hopefully noticed about our coaching updates – we try to focus our “scoop” on de-briefing on events that are in the past and that public disclosure would not negatively impact NC State. We spend more time analyzing and discussing “what ifs” and “what we thinks” than we do trying to ‘spill the beans’ on scoop.
* Unless there is anything of which we are unaware brewing with Jay Wright (or some other mystery ‘name’ candidate), then NC State’s coaching search is entering a phase where secrecy should be at a premium. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to pursue Rick Barnes and John Calipari. And, its not nearly as ‘embarassing’ to have been turned down by them as many people seem to think (especially in light of how genuinely interested that Barnes was and how publicly interested that Calipari was). BFD.
* But, the next phase is going to be different. We don’t expect there to be much information that would be prudent to be shared publicly considering where the search is today. < * We do think that the Athletics Department continues to play the local and national media almost as effectively as they were played by John Calipari. We think that department continues to leak the names of obviously sub-par candidates like John Brady and Steve Lavin in an attempt to lower Wolfpackers standards and generate fear about “how bad” things could be. This helps Wolfpackers naturally accept the names of candidates that had not previously been higher on the preferred list. We think that this is a great strategy is proving quite effective.
“The List”
This leaves us with “The List” that we hoped that we would never have to compile.
The following are the names that think represent a BLEND of whom we think that NC State should consider, who we think is realistic to consider, and who we think is actually being considered
Potentially Being Considered
The following are names that we have reason to believe have been or are being considered by NC State. Other names not included on this list may be under current consideration:
Billy Gillispie, Texas A&M
Gregg Marshall, Winthrop
Frank Haith, Miami
Steve Lavin, ESPN
John Brady, LSU
Should they be Analyzed/Considered?
The following are names that we toss out as names that may be on NC State’s list &/or may be worth examining (at this point in the process):
PJ Carlisemo, San Antonio Spurs
Sidney Lowe, Detroit Pistons
Dennis Felton, Georgia
Mark Turgeon, Wichita State
John Pelphrey, South Alabama
Dave Odom, South Carolina
Sean Miller, Xavier
Should NOT be Discussed
The following are names we don’t believe deserve discussion right now either because of their legitimacy as a candidate in the reality of the search or because of they absurdity of their candidacy. (Any comments about any of these coaches will be deleted from the comments section)
Bobby Lutz, Charlotte
Monte Towe, New Orleans
Dereck Whittenburg, Fordham
Conclusion
It has been no secret that behind the scenes Frank Haith has been lobbying hard for the job. We look at it the current situation this way — Haith is the floor under which State should not allow themselves to fall.
At this point, all candidates should be compared to what Frank Haith offers NC State. When we look at the list, we think that the situation boils down to Greg Marhsall of Winthrop vs Billy Gillispie of Texas A&M vs Frank Haith of Miami.
We don’t know the ins and outs of each candidate. We don’t know a lot of their ‘backstory’ within college basketball. We don’t know who is the right “fit” for NC State. This kind of granular research is why you pay Lee Fowler what you pay him.
If somebody else who was ACTUALLY PLAUSIBLE had a significantly better resume, then maybe you make a play. But we don’t see it right now. We expect the search team to use Haith as the standard by which other candidates are compared. In our opinion, Haith’s familiarity of the area and legitimate passion and energy for the job ultimately get him over the finish line.
And, this excites us more and more with every passing moment.
Postscript: We wrote this last night and wanted to wait until the middle of today to post it. Great minds must think alike because the folks at Pack Pride have just posted detailed information about the candidates that we have been discussing. This is their link in case you need some research on this names.
I can’t believe SFN actually put Dave Odom’s name out there. Guys, think about that. Cross it out. You CANNOT be serious.
Up & comers I can deal with. Deacon dregs, absolutely not.
I’m assuming you forgot to add the “strike-through” formatting on that name.
Had to finally register and post. Great article. ^beo, wrt Odom, read Jeff’s comments again. I’m almost positive he’s saying Odom “may be” on the list, not “should be.”
Yeah, someone forgot the strike-through on Odom.
^ You are correct.
*WHEW* THANK GOODNESS!
If SFN goes, there will be no hope left!
Is there precedent in other major conferences regarding the “poaching” of other teams’ coaches? I’m wondering if some sort of “cash settlement” might not make Miami look the other way.
The more I think about it, the more I like Haith.
I still have to be convinced that Haith is a good choice period. Sendek beat him twice and he did not make the NCAA’s and how long has he coached? Does he have enough of a track record?
Thank you. This is the soothing, comforting, reassuring info that we all needed to hear.
StateFans:
What is your opinion on the “gentlemen’s agreement” that’s been discussed regarding a coach from another ACC school. (Haith specifically)
SFN: Jeff will have a piece on this later in the afternoon. That “gentleman’s agreement” was put into agreement long before Miami joined the conference…things have changed.
Is it possible to even “touch” Haith with the new extended contract he just signed? I am not as worried about the “don’t touch another coach in the ACC” theory. We NEED a basketball coach and if Haith would rather come here he should have that option. Over the past couple of days I have come to the conclusion that he may possibly be the best choice. Maybe even better than Cal or Barnes. Haith is hungry to prove himself. Much like the great coaches of our past were when they came aboard. I think he would understand the tradition we have at NCSU and work to bring that back to the fans. Maybe then all these non-believers out there would then see how NCSU should be viewed as one of the top basketball programs in the nation.
Go Pack!
Gregg Marshall is the One! He fits every criteria, but the unknown is recruiting. That’s going to be a gamble somewhat anyway.
How has Haith’s recruiting been his first couple years at Miami, compared to Miami’s history of recruiting?
I really wish that Sean Miller had a few more years experience so that he could be a legitimate candidate. It would be neat to have the Miller brothers coaching at State. While he would be a nice sentimental favorite (along with Archie), the timing is just not right.
I can’t imagine any Wolfpack fan that would not support Frank Haith. There are just too many things to like about him not to give him 100% support and a reasonable shot at success in Raleigh.
Is there precedent in other major conferences regarding the “poaching� of other teams’ coaches?
Kentucky got Tubby from Georgia.
NCSU4LIFE, I don’t think Haith has signed that new contract yet… take it for what it’s worth.
Also, I would think that a coach jumping from a new ACC team to one of the original teams wouldn’t be as big of a deal.
From time to time, coaches have jumped within conference, but it is one of those “unwritten” rules that coaches do not do. I dont know what ill effects that could have in the coaching fraternity. Like it or not, the coaches are a franternity and do stick together. The relationships these coaches build goes a long way in many aspects. Suppose a top recruit is trying to decide between school A and B. School A is coached by a “traitor”. You know there are coahces at schools X and Y that have no shot at a kid, but will do everything they can to persuade that kid not to play for the school/coach. Dont think that happens? I bet it does every day.
Haith may be the best candidate, but at the same time, would that cause more harm than good? Yes, Herb owned Haith, but look what Haith had to work with. Let me shoot 30 times a game, I will make 10 to average 20 points. That does not necessarily make me a prospect though becasue i scored 20 points a game. I could have won National Championships coaching USC football. Give to Bush, give to White, pass to Bush, play some defense to keep the other team below 40, and we win.
We need to look at the entire package. What would this coach do with this team, this university, this tradition? It might be Haith, it might be Calipari or Barnes, or it might be someone no one has mentioned. Haith may be the best, but in the inner circles, this jumping within conference is very risky to the coach and institution.
Being a 25 year old male, I’d find it difficult to leave Miami’s cornucopia of sunshine, bikinis, mojitos, etc…
To me, Sean Miller makes less sense than anybody on the do not discuss list.
I find myself warming to the idea of Haith. There was a long story about Haith a year or two back (maybe when he was hired at Miami). It was in the N&O or the ACC Sports Journal, I think. Maybe one you Internet sleuths can dig it up. My memory is that he is a very driven guy. When he was at Elon as a part time coach and teaching in middle school, he used his teaching salary to supplement Elon’s pitiful recruiting budget. That made a real impression on me.
Great article/comparison. I very much agree with the final 3 SFN has come up with for very much the same resons.
Regarding this coaching search, we need to step back and look at the program in order to chart direction.
I think we should de-emphasize basketball. Obviously the best we can ever hope for is a distant 4th in the ACC and a 6-10 seed in the NCAAs. We were stupid to run off Herb. He was doing as well as our little crappy program can do. So I say screw it all and hire Whitt. He won’t jerk us around. As we de-emphasize basketball we may as well live through the past directly and help out an alum.
Of course, somehow through some bizzare historical anachronism in the past we were able to have regionally and nationally significant teams, but those days are long gone. Having Duke and UNC “so close” in today’s world is somehow completely different and makes it laughable that we should aspire to anything more than 1 sweet 16 every 10 years. Quick, someone look up some US Geological surveys online. Apparently Durham and Chapel Hill have moved closer to Raleigh over the past 20-30 years. Amazing as that sounds it must be true! I never heard this “Duke and UNC are too close to us” crap until just recently.
All of our “basketball history” apparently is meaningless now. We need to accept that our HC job is a crappy job and nobody with any name recognition would ever want it (why would he?, the program is just not expected to ever compete at any serious national level). Why would any coach (think about this) want to come to a place where the fans are supposed to accept getting our heads knocked in every single time we play a rival?
So let me admit I was wrong to be critical of Herb’s results. Apparently that is as good as it can ever get heretofore.
So what do we do now? Starting this fall our football facilities are second to none. Obviously this program is where we should put our emphasis. Nationaly (or even regionally) competetive basketball, for whatever reasons and due to whatever forces I cannot understand, has become an impossibility at NC State. But, our “clown” football coach has somehow managed a .500 record v. UNC, so I guess we are “allowed” to compete with UNC in that sport. Good to know!
This all hit me late last season when it was explained to me by our players and coach that getting into the NCAAs as a 10 seed after losing 5 or whatever in a row (including an ACC Friday loss to the ACC’s 12 seed), and getting our asses handed to us in the NCAA second round (plus sweeps by our rivals) was still a “great season.” I was an idiot, just like Ev said, to think otherwise. History notwithstanding, how could we be so stupid to want more?
The talk about Brady was crazy from the start! This guy just beat Duke and made the final 4! Only our lunatic fans would be nutty enough to expect anything remotely like that. He is totally out of our league! We need to shoot for a guy who can get us 4th place, in our league, tops, you nutjobs!
On a serious note, we need to hire whatever coach would bring the most energy in terms of recruiting and getting the guys to play hard. A guy who brings an “attitude.” You get those things and everything else falls into place. We need a strong identity, which will also come with those things.
I have no idea who that guy is on Lee’s list, but whoever it is, hire that mother.
Boy, it seems that we are getting close to a consensus on Haith. I hope the people that matter are coming to the same conclusion.
I am a little concerned that if there are too many more public rejections, Haith’s pride wont let him be sloppy 7ths.
SFN: Dan, take it from us – there is NO REASON to have those worries. None whatsoever.
I think it comes down to Haith and Gillispie. My concerns on Gillispie are his ability to recruit the entire east coast and move away from jucos. My concern on Haith is with only two years of head coaching experience, how ready is he? Both have some question marks, but both are very competitive and would be good hires in my opinion.
I guess it will come down to how well these guys interview and the “fit”. We need someone who can come in and unite the fans and offer excitement. I think great coaches have to have charisma and personality, and that is what held Herb Sendek back in my opinion.
“And, this excites us more and more with every passing moment.”
I wish I felt the same. I am still realing after the very public rejection over the last week and a half.
I’ll be honest I know very little about these guys other than Odom, PJ, Miller and Haith and the unmentionables.
You guys have been high on Gillesipie since day one. I just worry that he is just a Texas guy and his ability to recruit is limited to that region. This probably narrowminded on my part.
Miller is interesting to me. He’s young, well liked, and would add continuity. He’s done a competent job at Xavier? Right? Turgeon has done well at KSU. Hasn’t he gone to the NCAAs 3 or 4 years in a row now?
And the Winthrop guy. A lot of people rave about him too.
I agree with no to Brady and Lavin and Lutz.
I have never liked PJ.
Everybody seems to be jumping on the Haith wagon. And I will too if he is chosen but 2 years head coaching experience ain’t great. Supposedly he’s a great recruiter. I’m not yet sold though.
I hate that I’m about to say this but if I felt like he could recruit I would probably lean towards Odom out of the group. He is the classic ACC mold coach, folksy, classy… like Les I guess. Not that we really want to repeat that right! But still he has done okay in the past coachingwise. Maybe he can do more. I don’t know. Wake fans would absolutely howl with laughter. Still, for me, Odom is as good as any of these. I think he understands and appreciates the ACC the Barnes would have.
So my list in no particular order: Odom, Whitt (only w/ Cremins as Asst), Miller, Haith
The fact is there are so many reasons to say yes and no for any of these. We are going to need a lot of luck to make the right call. Still I would take any of these guys over Sendek.
Here’s my final word about Odom. It was in an email to Bob Lee Swagger on April 1, the day Herb left for ASU, in response to his request for my candidates for NCSU. Regarding Odom, I said:
*I will say this: any search committee member who mentions Dave Odom ought to be tied up naked on Franklin Street with a tub of vaseline and a Rainbow Warrior hat.*
Thanks as always for the logical and prudent view of this matter. I agree the three main candidates are fine as you have outlined, and unless we have a mystery guy in the wings one of the three should be fine.