Yow’s Comments on Scheduling to SFN

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    Agree with Debbie Yow or not (and sometimes SFN doesn’t — just keep in mind that “SFN” is no one person or unified idea), she clearly has a plan. And
    [See the full post at: Yow’s Comments on Scheduling to SFN]


    I don’t believe anyone is complaining about the lack of desire to play 7 home games on a yearly basis – don’t know why that was a significant part of this discussion. Merely not playing the games at home is not a solution. I didn’t think we only did it for financial consideratons; I thought we did it because it’s what BCS teams do (especially those that tend to fill their stadiums game-after-game-after-game – which is an anomaly in the ACC) to appease their fans.

    The elephant in the room is the quality of opponent the ticket holders are subsidizing, future plan or no plan. I just glanced back at our recent schedules, and the most recent OOC game of marginal note (Cincinnati) in C-F was in 20-freakin’-10, and without another one in the foreseeable future. There’s no excuse for that, with a fan base that supports the program as we have. We deserve better.


    Well the OOC home games suck this year no doubt, but I trust where the program is headed. I think I have agreed with everything Yow has said. There are some State Fans readers that I never agree with. I think it’s unfair to rate past OOC teams by Power 5 conferences and ignore the Big East or even the best of the teams outside the then top 6. ECU will always bring a crowd and they are never an easy win. Cincy, Connecticut, Central Florida, Tenn, were all good opponents. We just need to get back to several solid teams and not 3 or 4 cupcakes. And I believe we will. One cupcake a year is enough.


    We were at rock bottom last year and the cabinet was bare. I have to give credit where it is due. DD has done a much better job at recruiting than the TOB staff. At least DD is willing to get out of his office and recruit unlike TOB and staff. I have to give DD at least 4 years just to get back to where we were before he came to State and no I am not giving up my season tickets as so many have said here lately.
    As an alumnus I am proud of NC State, unlike the cheaters, really is the flagship university in this state when it comes to preparing people for the job force and the reality of the world we live in.

    I’m not saying that I will always support DD and staff but I have to give them the benefit of the doubt and the time to put their players on the field….it does not occur as fast in football as basketball.

    Thanks you Debbie Yow for believing that we can be better and are deserving of better athletics at NC State…..go wolf pack.


    This quote is concerning, “They are… unwilling to accept what Dave inherited in attitude, lack of talent/ recruiting and… he and his staff were hired to reverse that downward trend.”

    I don’t remember DY sharing that^ specificity upon TOB’s release, nor “coming to DD’s aid” with that specificity during last year’s death spiral (instead, TOB was fired due to “loss of ticket sales”).
    Yes, she stated some ‘general’ comments of support for DD, but I don’t remember her stating that TOB’s recruiting was slipping previously. TOB’s recruiting rankings (as per other recruiting sites) were all pretty much ‘average,’ except in a year or two when a several 4* guys were signed–but they didn’t turn out to be difference-makers (except Glennon). Instead, TOB was ‘known’ for “developing diamond-in-the-rough players.” So, how do you tell when he was “developing” them, and when he wasn’t?


    Likewise, I don’t remember any statements declaring or even hinting that there were “bad attitudes” among previous players who needed to be expunged from the team… I DO remember the 1Pack1Goal stuff about getting the O & D to support one another; &, “in-state” players vs. out-of-state players having different perspectives… but not bad attitudes of players that needed to be kicked to the curb.


    Helloooo Gibsonville !!!

    Ask me again in November….


    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!

    I don’t remember DY sharing that^ specificity upon TOB’s release, nor “coming to DD’s aid” with that specificity during last year’s death spiral (instead, TOB was fired due to “loss of ticket sales”).

    And she was right not to do so.

    Likewise, I don’t remember any statements declaring or even hinting that there were “bad attitudes” among previous players who needed to be expunged from the team…

    Same here.


    I’m interested to learn why now is better Foose? Excuses early are better than late(tho both suck) not that it would have tempered the fan base, as unrealistic expectations are our speci-ality.
    Attitude was the thing I was least concerned about with TOB, was this your basic “you didn’t recruit me” stuff, or were Meshach and Abednego on the team, too?
    I also don’t like the PC BS talk down to “loyal and we’ll meaning” fans(read that stupid fans that don’t know anything). Not to say I don’t think DY is on point, just please no semantically veiled cheap shots at those who provide you a solid financial base to grow from.


    IIRC (and it’s very possible that I don’t), after the come to Jesus mtg b/w DY and TOB, some very general comments re: recruiting were made implying ‘different philosophies’ about the importance of recruiting, or something like that, with regard to TOB getting the axe.

    I can’t remember any particular statements re: DD and recruiting, but from that general statement (of dissatisfaction of the previous guy) I had presumed that expectations of at least some effort on the recruiting trail was likely an important reason he was hired, which I thought he lived up to fairly well in a short recruiting season after he was hired (especially considering he passed up the chance to coach in a BCS bowl to come to Raleigh and get started quickly).

    As far as coming to his aid, coming to a first year coach’s aid in a season that was about what should have been expected anyway, probably would have only furthered the idiotic belief that he was in any trouble to begin with.

    As far as dealing with bad attitudes, I have no recollection of any such statements, senator.


    You’ve been part of a team, organization, group before… Probably been a leader… think about it.

    The attitude (remember the 2012 UVA game, even the clueless couldn’t have missed that) and talent problems (discussed ad nauseam on this site) were obvious to anyone paying attention. Why state the obvious only to appear to make excuses and point fingers?

    So the question is, why not have our AD make a public declarative statement listing the personnel problems of our football program? Seriously?… That is a real question? Think about that… When stated that way doesn’t it make sense NOT to do so? Do you really want someone on par with Annabelle Vaughn running our entire athletic program? With her PR acumen, she might do something just like that.

    But anyway, there are numerous reasons. I’ll list a few:

    1. Professional decorum. TOB was fired, so obviously his performance was found to be unsatisfactory. You wish him well and thank him for his efforts, and the successes he did have. You don’t start enumerating his coaching and leadership failures on his way out the door while simultaneously indirectly and publicly criticizing student athletes.

    2. You don’t publicly attack student athletes, especially those that remain on the active roster. They are your players.

    3. You don’t blame student athletes. To those players that have an ‘attitude’* problem, you give them the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps the problems were with the leadership of the previous coaching staff and it’s policies. You give them a clean slate with the new coach. You don’t call them out and blame them for the failures of the program and the previous coach. They now succeed or fail based on how they perform and behave going foward with the new staff.

    To those players who don’t measure up athletically, it’s not their fault. You don’t belittle them. You encourage them. You don’t blame them for being recruited and agreeing to become part of the ‘Pack. You don’t fault them for the inability of the previous staff to sign better talent. They’re are what you have.

    4. Assessment period. After a year and a full season INTO the change, assessments can be made. Problem players, depending upon degree, have been put on notice or removed. You are no longer criticizing the current players or the current team, you are making an GENERAL assessment of where you were, how far you have PROGRESSED, and the established GOALS, that by hard work, dedication, etc, are being PURSUED by the CURRENT team (coaches and players).

    The current statement from Yow was made in response to a legitimate concern expressed by members of (dare I say ‘prominent’) alumni/fan web page. It was made to the admins of the web page. It was not a news release. It was made a year into a coaching change (not during the transition, HUGE difference).

    I think Yow did a pretty good job in her response. Anyone who has read my posts knows I don’t suffer the ignorant AND foolish very well. I have no problems with ignorance (it’s literal sense), but I have a big problem with those who go about loudly professing it. Qualifier – I’m not referring to current company, I’m referring to literal extreme monkey board types that go well beyond.

    Now, all that said, if you wanna skewer the athletic department for their methods of extreme fan price gouging, I’m on board! Paying to LISTING to games online when Yahoo provide it for free? Blocking off PUBLIC fair grounds parking for basketball games to force fans PAY for parking closer to the PNC?… I better stop now before I veer off into politics and the federal subsidizing of college tuition as a money laundering scheme to ‘higher education’ sycophants.

    *The attitude problems were real, but possibly more of a result of a lack of player leadership than anything else. Or bad leadership. No one ever stepped up to fill the RW/Ivring void. Who’s fault is that? The coaches’ or the players’? Good question.


    PS: And everything Wufpacker wrote in his last post


    She did speak to the dearth of talent and other problems. She fired TOB after a 7-5 season knowing full well that her next hire would have to suffer through a dumpter fire season, perhaps two. Knowing she would get some shit for it by people who can’t or won’t think critically.

    Things like that earn my respect and support even though she says some cringeworthy things in defense of scheduling.


    Good points foose, wuf, et al.

    Here’s hoping the recruiting domino will now roll…


    Post of the Day Foose. I agree. I am not going to blindly just accept everything she says is true and I am tired of excuses. On the flip side I like her and what she has brought to the AD. I do think its easy to blame former coaches and players when a new regime comes in. It happens in the real world as well. Is it some of it true, maybe but that doesn’t change things going forward by placing blame. I do believe DD needs more time. It takes four years to really see improvement in all aspects. Find the low hanging fruit and start there. Then start addressing the bigger challenges and correct them. It sounds like she has a plan lets hope that they can make it work.


    With the ACC’s decision to stick to only 8 conference games each season, a third of our schedule remains OOC, and it’s highly unlikely the Wolfpack’s OOC schedule will make any, let alone any significant, improvement in the near future.

    Our “Power Five” games probably won’t make much of an impact, either. We’ll likely end up playing the bottom feeders from the other 4 big conferences, mainly Kentucky, Vanderbilt or Mississippi from the SEC; KU, ISU or TTU from the Big XII; Purdue, Northwestern or Indiana from the B1G; and Washington State, Cal or Colorado from the Pac-12. These teams would be an improvement in our OOC schedule, yes, but who we really need on our schedule are teams like Alabama, Florida, LSU, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Texas, Oklahoma, Oregon, USC or Stanford. We probably wouldn’t beat any of these teams, but we certainly won’t ever beat them if we never get to play them. I’d trade all 3 of our OOC home games this season for just ONE road game with any of the above (better yet two), but as long as NCSU administrators strive for bowl eligibility, the mediocrity to win 6 will continue.

    I like Dave Doeren and think he has potential, but Wolfpack football has reached the point that it needs a quick shot to build it up quickly, not another rebuilding project. Nothing short of another Lou Holtz will get this program up and running in a short time period. Personally, I’d like to see someone like Mike Leach or Steve Logan take over here, but with the present administration we have in charge, it’s not going to happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Wait ’til next season.


    ^Lou… inherited more talent than Coach Dave will have next season….

    Yes… we need more talent.
    No… we don’t Lou, son of Lou or clone of Lou…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!

    I have really enjoyed the conversation so far, but please don’t throw out names like Leach and definitely not Logan. I really like DD’s attitude so far. I would not listen to a single presser if Logan were our coach. I realize that’s personal preference, and I don’t know him personally, but I prefer the attitude (at least right now) of DD and the way he carries himself.

    Love the discussion and that we are generally being realistically positive (seemingly realistic expectations, by our standards of realistic anyway).


    “I get concerned that the big picture is not recognized by a few.” It is unfortunate that Yow felt the need to make those comments at all. It just reaffirms the fact that the (few – care to guess 40%, 50%, 60%) fan base is impatient as hell. It also provides fodder for outside talking heads. How many threads were on SFN and PP at the end on of last season asking fans to be patient and give DD a chance. Seriously, one season marked by injuries, no qb, little talent etc.etc.. It took Cutcliffe 6 years (first five 20-40) to have a decent season and how many people think Duke will maintain that level of success. It would be interesting to see what Yow has to endure in terms of fan complaints over the course of any given year. She deserves it, right???? Fire Everybody!!

    This is not an endorsement of the OOC schedule. It blows. This is about Yow having to airplane the liquified peas into the mouths of infantile adults.


    As fans it’s easy to focus on the bowls from our perspective only. Notice in her 2 reasons for needing a bowl, she has a completely different perspective. It’s not about fans, but about developing players and getting recruits. You trade out one of the OOC teams this year and put in a big name team, you’re trading a good chance of a win for a sure loss. It would generate short-term buzz (leading up to the game only) to have a big-name team on the schedule. As most have pointed out, this team will be doing everything it can to squeak into a bowl. The player development and recruiting boost will have a longer-term benefit than the big-name/sure-loss game would. You could claim that it doesn’t reward fans to have that kind of schedule, but doing everything you can now with a team that stands a lesser chance of succeeding in order to give yourself the best chance for a good team in the future makes a lot of sense. And if it does give you a better team in the future, that’s better for fans in the end. It’s like the national security vs. personal freedom balance and this is a time when national security side needs more attention (in the analogy; not getting into wider political statements).


    I have really enjoyed the conversation so far, but please don’t throw out names like Leach and definitely not Logan.

    I don’t understand the obsession with Logan… is it because he talks straight on a regular radio show (the only major coach who does) and people surmise he is a good college fball coach? He WAS a college coach.. his record sucks!


    This may be another difficult season on the gridiron. I was more optimistic at the end of last season than I am now, because I haven’t seen any evidence that DD and company are going to follow up their first recruiting class with a class that’s anywhere close to as good.

    The only thing that separates us from becoming an ECU, SMU, or UH is our conference affiliation and that isn’t even a sure thing after another 1-3 years. We had very well better raise the level of our performance in football, because that is what keeps you “in the club” so to speak. More and more I get the sick feeling that we are in deep doo doo for the long run. I hope the ship can be turned around, but I think it’s a 50/50 prospect at this point.

    1.21 Jigawatts

    Here’s my 2 cents, and I’m sure many have heard me say this before, but my gripe is with the home schedule vs. the cost associated with attending (LTR/Season tickets/Parking Pass/Gas/Time) and year after year I’m consistently on the short end of the stick. In fact I’m bent over a barrel while the admin uses said stick. You take away all the crap of TOB, lack of talent, finances, yadda yadda yadda, and just look at the home games those in attendence are forking over money for and can anyone honestly say you’ve gotten your money’s worth since the last time SoCar came to Raleigh? As I’ve gotten older, as my kids are getting older, the progressively worse gameday atmosphere being promoted by this school, and as the product on the field has gotten worse and the quality of competition at Carter-Finely has as well, I’m at the point I can honestly say if I stopped buying tickets I’d barely care about NC State football. That’s how bad it’s gotten, for me at least. Not to mention if you want to know the real market value of NC State football games you need to look no further than what people are able to resell their tickets for. So to conclude, while I know Yow has a plan, I don’t agree with all of it, mainly the lack of attention being placed on the paying customers.

    john of sparta

    ALL y’all are right:
    1. 13OT…our OOC sucks for four years. minimum.
    2. TexPack…from ACC with Love. otherwise, who cares?
    3. Jigawatts…FSU costs the same as Georgia Southern.


    I don’t like yow’s comments attacking the attitude of our players. Sounds like excuse making and sour grapes. I like Dr every time I have heard him interviewed of seen him on TV…didn’t like what I saw on field. He still has my support if he can show some progress.

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