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A lot of talk about winning the instate recruiting battle in football, specially DD lack of it. In fairness, who is really doing a good job keeping instate top players home? Dexter Lawrance had NC State in his top 4 final list but chose Clemson. If you look at the Rivals top 10 prospects, seems none of the triangle schools are winning unless the one commit to UNC deems winning. Here is the Rivals top 10 for NC.
1) Lawrence (DT) – Clemson
2) Emmons (RB) – Alabama
3) Dickerson (OG) – Uncommitted, but not considering UNC, State or Duke
4) Powell (WR) – Clemson
5) Joyner (LB) – Uncommitted,
6) Okwara (DE) – Notre Dame
7) Overton (WR) – Uncommitted, but not likely NC State or UNC
8) Adams (RB) – Oklahoma
9) Williams (RB) – Ohio State
10) Walston (TE) – Carolina
From that list, Clemson is landing our top players with more success than any instate university. Is it Dabo or is it the recent success like being ranked #1 currently that helps Clemson. Found it interesting that Dexter Lawrance stated one of his main reasons for choosing Clemson was the Dabo treated his mom better than others. Any opinions on why most are choosing out of state schools? Are we losing building relationship battle with instate high school coaches? Of is it basically a lack of on the field success for State? Or even lack of beating instate rivals?
How many states have 4 universities in the center bookended by more competition to the East and West. And on top of that, they all traditionally suck. If you were born in NC, how many big games do you remember growing up. Pitt 7-6 over UNX, Penn St. Over the Pack, Clemson 6-3 over UNX, FSU kicking the —- out of an undefeated Mack Brown, Amato 18 points from an undefeated season, the hat 14 points away from undefeated. Clemson winning it all to make the ACC relevant for 1 year. GT winning it all even though they were tied by UNX. The question is if you were a top ten football recruit with aspirations of winning it all and pro ball, would you go to a NC program. IIRC, maybe in the 1940’s when Duke won some titles.
IMO, the trend CAN be changed but the program has to win and it will have to be done (winning 10 games a year for several years) by a collection of kids from multiple states first.
I am very interested to see what happens to Dabo. I don’t see Clemson winning it all this year. If a bama type school comes calling, does he make the same choice as Mack Brown did years ago. Why leave if you think you can get it done at Clemson. I don’t think Clemson poaches other states the way bama does.
Dabo is a lifer at Clemson IMHO.
South Carolina’s rapid fall is also aiding Clemson.
We got a lot of work to do, and then some. UNC has managed to keep both coaches, and that isn’t good news. I don’t know if DD can turn the tide. Maybe.
Just have to win. Adebayo chose UK because they win. Clemson is competing for a national championship. Just that simple, win.
Just have to win. Adebayo chose UK because they win. Clemson is competing for a national championship. Just that simple, win.
Technically we lost Bam because Cal puts kids in the NBA. But your point remains.
As far as recruiting we will always and I mean always be behind the 8 ball in football recruiting in this state. Too many variables to overcome. The once in a generation type recruiter that we had (amato) couldnt get along with Murphy and was fired prematurely.
So I have always advocated we need to hire a gimmicky coach like Leach, Dykes or Ken N (Navy) and try and win like that. I think the air raid in the ACC would win a ton of games.
Leaving the ACC would have given us a recruiting hook, too. As of now, we have f-ckall. Which is why I was blown away that DD stayed when he had options after last season, and why I want NO PART of a coaching search in football. This is simply in no way, shape, or form an attractive job in the marketplace. Very few of the institutional factors you need to win big.
“Air raid” is intriguing, because it should be easier to find skill player talent (especially with a hook like that) than to dominate in the trenches. I want NO PART of a triple option type thing here. That would be the death of my interest in the program, period.
The market spoke on Chuck Amato’s coaching ability. I said he’d never come anywhere near another HC job, and he didn’t. WAY more than just his arrogance rubbing donors the wrong way (also assistants, players, staff, administrators, etc.).
Amato recruited well but not particularly well in NC. He landed Mario Williams and Tank Tyler but his recruits in-state weren’t phenomenal.He upgraded speed by hitting Florida. Helped that Joe Pate and staff landed a few NFL picks from Alabama. More problematic was that Amato managed to alienate and insult a number of NC High School coaches and programs.
His tenure was followed up by arguably the worst recruiting staff in NC State’s last 20-30 years. O’Brien and co just didn’t work hard enough here or elsewhere.
DD has done pretty good in-state until this year. If he wants to continue that progress, he has to win on the field now. The next two years are pivotal. I wouldn’t measure success in-state by looking at the top 10 players. Lawrence wasn’t only a top 10 player in-instate, but a top 10 player in the country supposedly. Sure, it would be nice to land a few of those, but classes vary in depth and position from year to year, as do team’s needs. We could definitely use help at some of the positions above, but some aren’t priorities for this year’s class either. IMO, if you expand the list to the top 25-50 players, we should be getting at a minimum of 10% given the number of schools in state. Anything less, I think, doesn’t bode well.
The market spoke on Chuck Amato’s coaching ability. I said he’d never come anywhere near another HC job, and he didn’t. WAY more than just his arrogance rubbing donors the wrong way (also assistants, players, staff, administrators, etc.).
Totally totally get that but if talent wins games and if recruiting was going well (he was still pulling in the top NC talent) then I think his leash should have been longer.
Amato recruited well but not particularly well in NC. He landed Mario Williams and Tank Tyler but his recruits in-state weren’t phenomenal.He upgraded speed by hitting Florida. Helped that Joe Pate and staff landed a few NFL picks from Alabama. More problematic was that Amato managed to alienate and insult a number of NC High School coaches and programs.
His tenure was followed up by arguably the worst recruiting staff in NC State’s last 20-30 years. O’Brien and co just didn’t work hard enough here or elsewhere.
DD has done pretty good in-state until this year. If he wants to continue that progress, he has to win on the field now. The next two years are pivotal. I wouldn’t measure success in-state by looking at the top 10 players. Lawrence wasn’t only a top 10 player in-instate, but a top 10 player in the country supposedly. Sure, it would be nice to land a few of those, but classes vary in depth and position from year to year, as do team’s needs. We could definitely use help at some of the positions above, but some aren’t priorities for this year’s class either. IMO, if you expand the list to the top 25-50 players, we should be getting at a minimum of 10% given the number of schools in state. Anything less, I think, doesn’t bode well.
Dude his instate haul was phenomenal. Not sure where you are getting that. Baker, A brown, AJ Davis, etc. He struck gold here in this state as well as FLorida.
He was a ticking timebomb. Yes, he was a salesman who could sell, and if he was WILLING to listen and change/work on his flaws, then yeah, he would have been more time.
But how many egomaniacs do you know who are like that? And Amato wasn’t one of them. There was LOTS of crap behind the scenes, and SFN published maybe 15-20% of what we heard.
^ I stand by my statement. Didn’t say he didn’t land some great NC kids. To clarify, the net outcome of his time here was alienation of many high school coaches and programs.
^ I stand by my statement. Didn’t say he didn’t land some great NC kids. To clarify, the net outcome of his time here was alienation of many high school coaches and programs.
There is absolutely no proof at all especially considering he was still recruiting well up until the end.
I’ll add that NC High School football has definitely been on the rise, but if you look at the number of D-1 players from the state per capita, or NFL players, it can be misleading.
High School football in NC is okay. There are pockets of the state where the ball played is really good. But as a whole, it isn’t a great state for the level of teaching/coaching and football competition from the youth level on up. Youth and middle school programs generally suck. High School ball really depends on where you live. High School coaches, particularly the good ones, develop relationships with college coaches. They hunt, fish, attend camps, etc together. They may say they don’t try to influence a kid’s decision, and a lot of them don’t, but they will tell a kid what they think his best interest is. And that often doesn’t lead to a NC school.
The eye test says to me that our talent level has improved under DD, but it’s a long way to CU/FSU level talent. Dabo started out in a way better place than DD and it took him 6-7 years to get to the level he’s at now.. DD may not have quite the sizzle of some coaches, but my gut tells me will be able to advance our program to a regular 9-10 win program.
High School football in NC is slightly warmer than a bowl of Goldilock porridge.
All the proof ya need about Chuck’s alienation is this,
“I know.”Further, DD’s growing relationships and presence in NC is something that hasn’t been seen in these parts in 50 yrs.
Get back to me when the “myth” becomes reality for CH in March/April.
Listen, and listen well. 5 years of postseason ban has been discussed amongst staffers. This comes directly to my ears from “The Old Coach.”
Now, neither one of us believe the COI will go that far, but there it is…
^Even 2 year postseason ban should have a serious impact on:
1. Current roster, as NCAA would be likely to allow transfers without penalty
2. Short term recruiting
3. Long term recruiting, since winning should drop off short term and key coach(es) could choose to leaveCombine that with DD building great relationships with in-state HS coaches, and the opportunity will be there to take a step forward in recruiting. It’s up to the coaching staff to capitalize on that opportunity.
To clarify my comments regarding Dabo, Clemson took a gamble on him, and so far it is paying off in a very big way. I’ve heard him say over and over how grateful he is for the opportunity. If you did not know, he came from very humble beginnings – had a tough early life. Worked like the dickens and now look where he (and Clemson football) is. But he is Clemson football right now – they love the guy, and he loves them back. I just don’t seeing him leaving that place any time soon.
And who in their right mind wants the task of replacing the man that is Nick Saban?? Two years of finishing second in the West and you’re on the chopping block. Seriously.
Totally totally get that but if talent wins games and if recruiting was going well (he was still pulling in the top NC talent) then I think his leash should have been longer.
There is absolutely no proof at all especially considering he was still recruiting well up until the end.
What’s with all the rewriting history all of a sudden?
Chuck pissed of people everywhere he went, and that includes high schools.
Once Holliday left, Chuck was done. Actually, he was probably done prior to that, but the departure of Doc sealed it. The simultaneous jump in Florida’s recruiting and the fall off in west Raleigh wasn’t a coincidence. Neither was the drop in staff ‘harmony and effectiveness’.
And in the end, he was neither winning nor pulling in top talent. His leash was plenty long. Probably too long, and he hung himself with it.
He was a salesman, a good one for a time. Especially when it came to recruiting. But he never delivered the goods nor could he recruit across the board. His target market eventually caught on and stopped buying the snake oil.
Even ‘his’ last two recruiting successes weren’t his doing. He didn’t want either one. 2 star Irving was forced on him and 2 star Wilson was an accident, an afterthought that landed in State’s lap due to the idiot that was Bunting.
Amato loved NC State and I appreciate his contributions, but let’s not start creating fables and myths.
I lived in the Upstate during the Danny Ford years – including 1981. I suspect Dabo has the same sort of following. He seems to be like Ford in that is plays everyman (and probably is) but is a fine football coach.
Amato is both an NC State hero and a failed head coach. That happens.Great post, Bass. & pertinent. You even nailed the answer to this in your initial post: “Clemson is landing our top players with more success than any instate university.” Not only is Clemson cleaning our clock, but also FSU’s, & in the other division, Va Tech’s, Ga Tech, & Miami’s (the traditional divisional top dogs). About halfway through this season as Clemson began to gain separation from the rest of the conference, & definitely after they beat their only real challenge in FSU, I began to wonder more about this man they call “Dabo”. A quick internet search yielded the following from Clemson’s bio page:
“…Swinney’s recruiting reputation became evident when he produced five top-20 ESPN recruiting classes in a row, including top 10 classes in 2011 and 2012. As a result, Clemson is one of only 10 schools to be ranked in the top 20 of recruiting five years in a row (along with LSU, Alabama, Texas, USC, Florida, Georgia, Florida State, Ohio State and Oklahoma), and Swinney is one of only five active head coaches to ever accomplish the feat, putting him on par with prestigious names such as Nick Saban, Les Miles, Bob Stoops, and Mark Richt.”
And the results of consistent, top-tier recruiting?
“…Swinney led the 2011 Tigers to a 10–3 record that included an ACC Championship, the Tigers’ first since 1991; in 2012, Swinney led Clemson to its first 11-win season since the 1981 national championship year, capping the year off with an upset victory over #8 LSU Tigers in the Peach Bowl.”
You can add to that this year’s 1st ever 13-0 record for Clemson & this little tidbit I heard during the CU / NCSU game this year: Clemson & NC State are both in the top 5 of programs having to play FRESHMAN this year. So while they are in the Nat’l Championship playoff, we’re …
The Bottom line is it’s an ARMS RACE in today’s college athletics. The programs w/ the brightest, shiniest, most-est toys (incl. 4-5 star recruits) win. What can a Pack fan do? As much as I hate to say it: dig a little deeper in your pockets &/or seat cushions & give, give, give $$$. (Full disclosure: this coming from a 15+ year member of the Wolfpack Club).
It is an arms race and has been since I was in school which goes back to the Holtz era. Also Clemson has most always drawn a large portion of NC talent Dabo has tapped into that very well. I’m not been a member of the Wolpack Club longer than you have been a member – not a protest thing rather life happens.
I will say Dabo inherited a program is much better shape over all than DD did. Has DD done enough so far? I think probably but more progress is needed.
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