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And sway the coaches, who, in many cases may say publicly they don’t sway a kid one way or the other, but in fact often swing them in the direction that they feel will best benefit their development
Look yogi – I made those same arguments with Mike o’cain. I learned my lesson…this doesn’t mean that i don’t think that DD can’t turn it around. I believe he can and I believe its better for the nc state program if he does.
However, let’s not act like he has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he can succeed in this level.
You want to know the last time nc state has gone 4 straight years with a losing conference record? Unless it happened with Earl Edwards or I am missing something (always possible) it was before 1950.
Think about that for just a second…
^Hire coaches with established relationships or roots in your state or region. You need some salesman who can sell mama or daddy or Jimmy to wear the red and white.
So the fast answer is: Hire coaches with established relationships or roots in your state or region.” Easy enough except how do you hire them away from the schools who currently employ them. Where do we get the bucks? And For the last 2 or 3 years these super salesman coaches have been in mama, daddy and Jimmy’s living room using the same sales pitch or their old employer.
The question is, “What have our coaches got to sell?” or more specifically what do we have to sell that other teams with better histories, better facilities, better education, better looking coeds, etc., have to offer. As TheAlias Troll pointed out, TOB laid the groundwork for what NCSU can offer that some, maybe many, others don’t have to offer. Champions in the classroom, champions in the community and something he was standing for, champions on the field. What TOB IMO failed at was sustaining the recruiting effort.
Doeren was brought in to fill the missing – recruiting energy. He, again IMO, has built on the foundation that TOB built. One major addition is the family atmosphere. I don’t know all that TOB had in his program but I do know that Doeren is providing these young men with life skills as well as athletic training. All of the fore mentioned aspects of TOB’s program and DD’s program are lumped together what I call the culture.
Work ethic is a big part to this culture. Example: The O-line is the first position group on the practice field and the last off. They will not be out worked. The gains in strength and conditioning across the board are a result in the work ethic. Our coaches are getting more and more interest by recruits which will result in better commitments.
Without altering our culture to be something truly unique we have nothing to sell except being able to start as a freshman and we all know what that means. Our team is weak. Doeren isn’t out tooting our horn about the culture TOB started and he is continuing to build. Bragging doesn’t fit in the culture. (See EweNC for an examples where egotism, self-interest, arrogance and boasting a part of the culture.
Check out our staff. Doeren has assembled a very good group of coaches, coaches who want to be part of a program they can be proud of. You want find coaches who have been run-off from other programs for reasons of impropriety. What TOB started and on whose shoulders he stands is solid and cannot be built in a year 2 oe 3.
The question is, “What are have our coaches got to sell?” Quality education, quality football, good citizenship, quality life training, and more. We are appealing to parents and young men who know there is more to life than playing football for 4 years. There are enough really good football players who feel this way to make up a winning program. We won’t be sued, like a certain neighboring school, for failing to provide the education we promise.
We will have a solid, winning program here at NC State, and one that those of us who care about such things can be proud of. We will have some of the usual foolishness that one can expect from 18 year olds but not the crap we read about every day at other schools.
I’m not into predictions but I will step out on the skinny branches and say that I think Joe Giglio of the N&O has it about right. He says we will finish the regular season at 8-4. I don’t know where he is getting his info from but he is the N&O beat writer for the Pack.
^Hire coaches with established relationships or roots in your state or region. You need some salesman who can sell mama or daddy or Jimmy to wear the red and white.
Without altering our culture to be something truly unique we have nothing to sell except being able to start as a freshman and we all know what that means. Our team is weak. Doeren isn’t out tooting our horn about the culture TOB started and he is continuing to build. Bragging doesn’t fit in the culture. (See EweNC for an examples where egotism, self-interest, arrogance and boasting a part of the culture.
Maybe our team needs a little attitude a la Amato’s teams.
You keep bringing up UNC as the bad example but they just won their division and gave Clemson all they wanted in the championship. Meanwhile Fedora is recruiting at the top of the ACC along with Pitt and Duke. For the love of God tell me what either has on NCSU?
Grey, this comment is not for you.
NONE of you have an answer except to say DD needs to come up with the answer. I HATE that, no one who works for me comes to me with a problem without offering a solution. It may not be THE solution we go with but I make them think and DEFINE the problem. You Yahoos can’t even define the problem. You expect magic results. 100 colleges are out there vying for the top talent. 2 of the top 10 are in OUR division, much less our conference. You complain about our results, you expect miracles. If you’re so smart TELL ME THE ANSWER! Wave your magic wand and give us a top 10 recruiting class. I tell people moree times than I care to, “If you don’t have a solution then you’re part of the problem”. And I DARE you to define the problem, if you do you’ll see that there is no simple way to fix it. Lou and Steve couldn’t do it when they went to USC, and they are pretty smart cookies.
Tell you what, I dare any of you to let me follow you around on your job for just 3 days. I’ll even take vacation to do it. And in 3 days I’ll find more ways than you can imagine to tear your performance to shreds and give you a week’s worth of work to figure out how to fix it.
It’s easy to sit back and look at another claiming they should do better, it’s damned hard to come up with solutions, REAL solutions, to help them achieve it. And last time I checked, the number of REAL coaches on here, ones who really know the hard work and challenges of being a REAL coach (not talking about volunteer for little league) you can count on one hand with fingers left over.Smarter than the average bear
True transformation of an organization starts at the top. It all starts with our graduates. We demanded a top notched chancellor. Our first big step at NC State was hiring Randy Woodson. I know a lot of folks don’t like Debbie Yow but I trust Woodson and he hired her. Dave Doeren is not the best football coach we could have found but he may be the best man we could have hired for the job. The problem with NC State having a great football coach is he’s the coach version of 1 and done. I don’t think Doeren is going to run to the first school that waves a quarter more per year. Our lowly ACC conference has slipped up into the big boy status in football. Thank you FSU and Clemson. SEC games are no longer automatic loses.
But continuing the top down story. Doeren has hired coaches who are quality people as well as good to excellent coaches. Those coacbes see something here that we fans don’t see. Drinkwitz, Ledford, Nielsen, McDonald, and so on are coming to work for a man with vision and integrity. It’s a slow process to build this way but it’s better than The Carolina Way with Black Santa carrying the money bag.
I’m 78 years old and may not live to see NC State at or near the top of the heap but i’m going to enjoy the ride as long as I can. There is something different happening here and it’s good. YOu guys who look in the rear view mirror to see where we are going… I don’t blame you for being pessimistic. Been there; done that. If you are interested in something a whole lot more fun, try looking to see what’s happening now. It really is a much more fun way.
What I TRIED to get across is that you all are having a “post mortem”-ish discussion as if the season is already done. It’s NOT.
We don’t know whether the talent across the board will be below the level that is needed to compete. There are at least 2 classes ranked in the 30s (that’s competitive, in my view) in the pipeline. Much more than we’ve had before. As long as Doeren has found a QB, and the coaches coach them up properly, we should see a team that competes.
And then, he needs to build on that foundation, and recruit more and better. Will it ever be “top 10?” almost surely not. But if he can get “threshold talent” like Dick Sheridan and Frank Beamer got, then I will live with it. Provided he allows for innovative, open offense built around the QB.
Probably the best/only way to win at NC State, especially since we fumbled our chance to make a push for SEC membership (which would have given us a “hook” in local recruiting).
Anybody that waxes nostalgic for Chuck the Clown can be dismissed immediately from serious consideration. I mean, come the f-ck on already.
You keep bringing up UNC as the bad example but they just won their division and gave Clemson all they wanted in the championship. Meanwhile Fedora is recruiting at the top of the ACC along with Pitt and Duke. For the love of God tell me what either has on NCSU?
IOW 20 years of academic fraud to keep players eligible doesn’t matter to you. Bogus learning disability tests to gain athletes advantages such as tutors taking notes for them don’t matter to you. Using “volunteer” coaches to coach players when that is against NCAA rules doesn’t matter to you.
Fedora has the advantage of coaching Butch Davis’s recruits — recruits Black Santa swayed with his illegal tricks — to coach. BTW the great Fedora didn’t have a winning record in 2014 so he went out and hired a coach who couldn’t get on our campus to be his DC.
You like The Carolina Way. I think it’s despicable. We should end our conversations. You aren’t going to convince the The Carolina Way is the best thing since sliced bread and I’m not going to convince you that you can win without running a slim-ball program.
You can have the last word. We are done.
Anybody that waxes nostalgic for Chuck the Clown can be dismissed immediately from serious consideration. I mean, come the f-ck on already.
Come on BJ, tell us what you really think. 😉
No waxing nostalgic for Amato here. He’d run his course and needed to go. I’m just using him as an example of what can be done and showing that he definitely inherited a much more challenging situation (and did more with it). I’m fine with leaving Amato in the past, but when people make statements that aren’t true (like DD inherited the toughest situation ever), then I’m going to bubble up some of those memories. Seems reasonable.
I do agree that recruiting isn’t a quick fix. It’s part of what I mean when I talk about the INPUT$ to the program (and yes, that is a $ and not an S). It’s also part of what I mean when I question whether NC State is committed to winning at a high level, or even should be committed to doing what it takes to win. That’s fine for UNC. Their alums can seemingly sleep at night with their culture and have been for 40+ years (yeah, they knew Dean was crooked). I’m personally glad it’s not right for NC State.
I definitely like the culture that DD is developing. He seems like a guy I’d want my kids playing for. I’d steer them away from Fedora, Jimbo, Saban and some others. I like that there’s some accountability within the program, and it applies to the best players as well. That’s the way it should be. This is why I say that I like DD and hope that DD succeeds.
Unfortunately, this business (like any other) comes down to the bottom line. Go 6-6, get another year. Go 7-5 or better, awesome! Another losing season and losing conference record and some hard questions need to be asked and decisions made. That’s all.
Personally I’m hoping for the best. Like theCowDog, I’ve watched some film on Boise under Drink. The passing attack will be better, at least schematically (to my untrained eye). The question for me is what happens when he gets down, and will he stay balanced enough. Looking at Boise’s losses under Drink, he got a bit too pass happy.
I’m most excited about the OL. I’ve watched the videos. Ledford is definitely a coach I’d want my kid playing for. He had a great line last year at App. I’m optimistic with what he can do here.
Yogi,
Don’t know how this happened.
YogiNC wrote:
You keep bringing up UNC as the bad example but they just won their division and gave Clemson all they wanted in the championship. Meanwhile Fedora is recruiting at the top of the ACC along with Pitt and Duke. For the love of God tell me what either has on NCSU?“Champions in the classroom, champions in the community and something he was standing for, champions on the field.” Sorry, as I said under TOB, this is a load. 30k plus students have to be champions in the classroom or community or else they flunk out, lose scholarships if applicable, and fail at a meaningful life. Plenty of valuable lessons to be learned via sport, whether it’s at the pee-wee level, or the D1 collegiate level, but the standard by which coaches are judged is wins against peers and rivals. That crap doesn’t sell, if you don’t win. It’s like saying “honor the process.” If the process doesn’t produce successful outcomes in the “W” column, nobody gives a hoot about process.
I’m not down on DD. I hope he’s successful. I hope we’re more competitive this year and win a few more. He hasn’t made the talent leap as fast as I’d hoped, and that is in part due to the damage of the Amato and TOB years, particularly as they impacted NC recruiting, or the lack thereof. And he hasn’t shown he can or his staff can outcoach teams with comparable, or perhaps beatable talent. I still think it’s shameful that we haven’t been able to capitalize more on the *NC scandal. I’m telling you from firsthand knowledge, that he needs to show he can win, to lure recruits, because “playing time” only sells so far to elite recruits. If you’re good, you’re not scared of competition. He has to win. It has to happen in this season or the following one, and see an upswing in recruiting, or else he won’t be around long.
“Champions in the classroom, champions in the community and something he was standing for, champions on the field.” Sorry, as I said under TOB, this is a load. 30k plus students have to be champions in the classroom or community or else they flunk out, lose scholarships if applicable, and fail at a meaningful life. Plenty of valuable lessons to be learned via sport, whether it’s at the pee-wee level, or the D1 collegiate level, but the standard by which coaches are judged is wins against peers and rivals. That crap doesn’t sell, if you don’t win. It’s like saying “honor the process.” If the process doesn’t produce successful outcomes in the “W” column, nobody gives a hoot about process.
I’m not down on DD. I hope he’s successful. I hope we’re more competitive this year and win a few more. He hasn’t made the talent leap as fast as I’d hoped, and that is in part due to the damage of the Amato and TOB years, particularly as they impacted NC recruiting, or the lack thereof. And he hasn’t shown he can or his staff can outcoach teams with comparable, or perhaps beatable talent. I still think it’s shameful that we haven’t been able to capitalize more on the *NC scandal. I’m telling you from firsthand knowledge, that he needs to show he can win, to lure recruits, because “playing time” only sells so far to elite recruits. If you’re good, you’re not scared of competition. He has to win. It has to happen in this season or the following one, and see an upswing in recruiting, or else he won’t be around long.
As I understand it that was one of the reasons Yow told TOB that he was fired. He simply refused to use that as leverage in recruiting. It stinks as they are right back on top.
I think everyone wants DD to win, thats not really debatable and if he does the cherry on top is doing things the “right way” whatever that means. But I think the bulk of us are simply pointing out he has to do something this year. Anything positive or else we fall into the same old predictable pattern. The new coach buzz in recruiting is wearing off and we will be in the same situation when the next coach comes. And around and around we go. We have a nice schedule set up for some potential. Just show us something.
And to keep pointing at UNC as some bad evil program that we never want to become, that is just funny. This is big boy football. That is what it is. You have to get gritty. Its just the nature of the beast. If the roles were reversed and we were recruiting like fiends and winning our division you wouldnt here a peep about the extracurricular stuff.
UNC has a willingness to cut corners that we don’t have. Fair or unfair, that’s an apples to oranges comparison.
Duke’s executed on a fantastic, 5 part plan:
1) Great school and things to offer a student (and sell a parent)
2) Willingness to make things a bit easier for the athletes. Everyone does this, but Duke REALLY does it.
3) Go all in on basketball (which is easier to get to the top of the mountain in) and the parlay that into other areas ($$$).
4) Hire a great coach
5) Give that coach time
I don’t see any strategic plan like that at NC State. Sorry, but I just don’t.Pitt has historically been a little better than NC State at football, but not much better. They’ve had a lot of turmoil in their athletics department. I suspect what was meant by referencing Pitt was recruiting and I personally believe they have some built in recruiting advantages. They’re in a talent rich area (western PA and eastern Ohio). They main rival (Penn State) is a distance away, has undergone scandal and plays in a different conference. The next closest major programs from a proximity perspective are Ohio State, West Virginia, Maryland, Rutgers and Syracuse and outside of Ohio State they have just as much if not more tradition to offer. They’re in a city, which I think does help with recruiting.
It’s sort of like when people didn’t want to see that it was easier to recruit at BC than NC State. I suspect it is easier to recruit at Pitt or Duke than NC State.
I disagree that NCSU has built in disadvantages to recruiting. The quality of high school football played here, on average, is not as great as many other regions, but due to population growth in NC alone, there are plenty of really good programs that would rival other powerhouses in any state. There’s plenty of talent. Not only have we not taken advantage of the *NC scandal, we didn’t take advantage of a downturn in UT football (which Jones has now revived), which once raided western NC, or a leveling off in UVA or VTech. It remains to be seen if Spurrier’s retirement will help. USC began raiding NC under his watch, and now Dabo has started plucking top talent. You cannot let poachers raid your backyard.
No one harkens for the Amato years when they recognize he at least upgraded the talent, from his FL connections. If one doesn’t have many NC connections, that adds a disadvantage. If the head man could use his prior ties to lure talent from another region, as Amato did, then it wouldn’t matter. But so far, I don’t think we’ve seen it. I think we’ll score this year. Just not sold on the other side of the ball.
I wouldn’t insult a Hole Troll by saying you were one.
I seem to recall you criticizing me for name calling. Just because his opinion is different does not mean he is a hole troll.
In some ways yes, in other ways no.
Every recruit is different. If I was an elite recruit, state wouldn’t make the cut. uT (pick which one), bama, uga, Clemson, Florida, LSU, tOSU…. check. OTOH, choosing between state, Duke, KY, Vandy, cuse, BC, Pitt and WVa, well you’re definitely in the kill zone especially if I believe in the coach and his staff.
Look, DD has a tough job – he is going to have to be one of the smartest guys in the room if he is going to succeed here. Talent-wise, we will likely always be behind the 8 ball vs FSU, Clemson, VaTech, Uva, and Miami. Gatech is a bit of a wild card – as is UNC-CH. Regardless, most years we have had the talent to stick with them.
I just hope DD is our Beamer. I think he can be, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable position to say that DD hasn’t proven he will be successful yet.
Japanese companies have a 500 year plan or so I’ve heard. I don’t think a 500 year plan is viable for a football program but to turn a program from perpetual mediocrity to an ongoing top 25 program is not a 3 or 4 or 5 year deal. Honestly I don’t know how long it will take. Some programs have hired a hot-shot offense minded coach and made immediate gains. That doesn’t mean that the program will sustain itself after that hot-shot coach retires or leaves for the really big bucks.
Our HC will not be a rookie forever and there is no real value in harping on his rookie mistakes no matter how bad they were. The man has a plan and he has shared it with the AD. Let’s give him the support and time he needs.
Here is a story on our D-line to get you juices flowing for tomorrow night. http://www.espn.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/93990/bradley-chubb-leads-a-dangerous-defensive-line-at-nc-state
We are going to be hard to beat with this D-line.Without altering our culture to be something truly unique we have nothing to sell except being able to start as a freshman and we all know what that means.
I made a comment (taken poorly) that I felt the “culture change” was smoke and mirrors but you seems to really feel he has changed it. What were the cultural problems when he came in? What has he done to fix them and where does he need to take the culture, in your opinion?
NONE of you have an answer except to say DD needs to come up with the answer.
It seems there is a “can’t fix recruiting” vibe to many of these posts. Is that how people feel? Are we facing a glass ceiling?
It’s also part of what I mean when I question whether NC State is committed to winning at a high level, or even should be committed to doing what it takes to win.
IMO we are not committed to it. Because of the seat licenses and loyalty of the fans there is not a lot of incentive to improve. Typically something substantial needs to happen to drive true change.
I made a comment (taken poorly) that I felt the “culture change” was smoke and mirrors but you seems to really feel he has changed it. What were the cultural problems when he came in? What has he done to fix them and where does he need to take the culture, in your opinion?
IMO Doeren is building on the foundation that TOB built. I don’t want to say anything about Chuck and the culture (or lack of culture) under him. Let’s just say I would want my son playing for either TOB (as a man) or DD as a man, developer of men and football coach.
I seem to recall you criticizing me for name calling. Just because his opinion is different does not mean he is a hole troll.
Not because of me but you seem “different” since then.
Read it again, Rick. I didn’t say he was a hole troll. Not then or in the previous post where he took it that I did. My original comment simply compared his position on character to those on The Tar Pit. My comment was about his comments, not him. Unless he has changed, I still don’t think much of his not caring about the character of athletes representing NC State — winning does not justify poor character. If it’s all about winning I think we should shut it down.
You will not recruit our way out of mediocrity. It has to be by coaching, primarily.
North Carolina is a mediocre talent pool that is overfished, and the best players have always left. NC State is a non-power in the weakest major D-1A conference. We will NEVER “build a wall around” NC, even if that were enough.
So…we don’t have that built in “home field advantage” that other schools start with. We can’t cheat and get away with it, either. Last time I checked, we weren’t on a paradise island, or had anything else especially uniquely orgasmic to sell.
Logic says we won’t be a Top 10 football recruiting school. Period. You can goose the books with the “island of misfit toys” like Amato did, but look what kind of “teams” that resulted in towards the end. Not sustainable at all. And it was forever ago, in sports terms.
Now, we DO have to recruit sufficient talent to compete. That’s where TOB flopped spectacularly. Classes in the 60s and 70s will get your ass handed to you. Classes in the 30s and 40s…if a few “diamonds in the rough” are found…the right group of coaches can probably work with that.
And with that success, you can maybe build into recruiting 20s and 30s classes, and compete for league titles periodically. That’s really the model to succeed as a football program at NC State, in the medium and long term.
I’m willing to see if Doeren can do that, as long as he is ticking of the right boxes along the way. Being innovative on offense is DEFINITELY one of them.
I hope that DD is our Beamer as well.
With respect to recruiting, we should benchmark against teams that have the same input$. UNC isn’t one of those. Neither is FSU, Clemson, Miami or Notre Dame.
Louisville, Duke, WF, UVA, Va Tech, Ga Tech, Pitt, Maryland, Rutgers, Vandy and Syracuse are. Those are who we’re realistically competing with. For us to move up, it will come at the expense of these programs (and push them down).
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