As the calendar turns, so does the Pack

Earlier this week I asked the question What’s the problem with Pack basketball? and we discovered the difference between the wins and losses wasn’t as simple of hey we are just playing worse. What was revealed was in the losses while on offense the Pack was still shooting the ball the same and the same FTRate but they were turning the ball over more and grabbing a smaller percentage of Offensive Rebounds (OR%). On defense the Pack allowed a higher eFG% and OR%. In addition to these differences we also see during State’s Wins they played at a much higher tempo. This article is meant to compliment the previous one as we are going to take a historical look at the Gottfried tenure at NC State and breakdown how the Pack has performed during the 3 separate (but not equal) parts to the basketball season: Pre-conference regular season (preseason), Conference season, Postseason. We’ll identify if there are any trends from one part of the season to the next and if those trends carry over from one year to the next. We’ll dig down into Tempo Free Stats looking at raw efficiency numbers as well as the Four Factors. Finally we’ll use this to help us determine if we can make any reasonable predictions as how the Pack will play moving forward during the current season into conference play. Let’s get started…

NOTE: This article was written prior to the Pitt game, results since then do not change the historical context of the article.

Since the previous article focused in on the pre-acc season (games prior to January 1st) let’s look at offense and defense during this time:

State has always been very efficient on offense during the “preseason” but that raw efficiency has been on a steady decline since the final season of unfulfilled expectations left by Leslie/Brown/Wood/Howell, where tempo was up and they couldn’t miss. Notice Offensive Rebounding has been consistent for the last 3 years while TO% is returning to previous level (which is still really good) and the FT Rate is up/down each year.

Defense shows a raw efficiency with a sharp drop this year attributed to making the opposition miss more shots and limiting second shots but as discussed in the previous article that’s not the case in the losses against stiffer competition.

You can look here and here if you’d like to see the season to season breakdown of the conference games and the post season games, respectively. In a nutshell the defense is getting steadily worse each conference season and post season.

Time to compare each season individually and breakdown how the Pack performs in each of the 3 subseasons.

Looking at the 11/12 season we see the following:

Offensively the raw efficiency took a dip from the pre to regular to post season. With the increase in competition I’d image the adjusted numbers would be similar between pre and acc seasons. The dip in eFG% and OR% is indicative of stiffer competition but note there is a drop off in production. Defensively there wasn’t much change between pre and acc season but the Pack buckled down during the postseason and improved their defense dramatically, through creating tougher shots and defensive rebounding, which aided in their unexpected runs during the ACCT & NCAAT. HINT HINT!!!! A Good Defense is NECESSARY.

During the 12/13 season the Pack took another dip in Offense when moving from the preseason to the acc season before rebounding during the postseason. The downside to this season and a contributor to why they couldn’t reclaim that magic was the poor defense that got worse from preseason to acc and continued into the postseason. HINT HINT!!!! A Good Defense is NECESSARY.

Finally, the 13/14 season mirrored the 12/13 where the offense dipped when moving from the preseason to the acc season before rebounding during the postseason. Again the downside to this season was the severe reduction in defense, even worse than in 12/13. Both the 12/13 and 13/14 postseason defenses saw teams scoring easier while State forced less turnovers. HINT HINT!!! A Good Defense is NECESSARY.

If you’d like to see it broken down by wins and losses then you can click here.

To tie this altogether, we’ve seen how during the past 3 seasons the offense is less efficient, struggling to get their shot and rebound as well on offense. While on defense the Pack isn’t as good at forcing bad shots, defensive rebounding, or forcing turnovers. If this has been the case for each of the last 3 seasons then the logical conclusion should be the same for the current season. Now does that translate into highly efficient performances against the dregs of the ACC and gouging your eyes out displays against the upper echelon? Who knows but if you’re expecting this team to improve as the calendar turns to January then history is against you.

Finally…A Good Defense is NECESSARY. For NC State to move from a Hubba Bubba team to a Championship one they have to improve on defense and that defense is not going to come from stealing the ball and creating turnovers, that’s just not Gottfried and I don’t see that ever changing. Since creating turnovers won’t be one of the 4 areas on defense that the Pack will be good at then they must be good at the other 3, creating bad shots/defensive rebounding/not sending the other team to the free throw line so much. We’ve seen in the past 2 games hints of these 3 but only against Pitt have we seen all 3 for a full game. While the Pack is trying to improve on defense, they can’t lose their edge in offensive efficiency either, that will spell doom for a team learning to play defense.

About 1.21 Jigawatts

Class of '98, Mechanical Engineer, State fan since arriving on campus and it's been a painful ride ever since. I live by the Law of NC State Fandom, "For every Elation there is an equal and opposite Frustration."

Mark Gottfried NCS Basketball

Home Forums As the calender turns, so does the Pack

Viewing 25 posts - 26 through 50 (of 74 total)
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  • #68580
    Thinkpack17
    Participant

    Gott’s teams consistently underachieve based on each team’s talent level.

    The Sweet 16 team didn’t underachieve and last year’s team didn’t underachieve. The “blessed” season was a gong show and if this team doesn’t make the tourney it’s a failure. So I can’t give you “consistently”.

    #68581
    1.21 Jigawatts
    Keymaster

    I think MG and staff have missed on or made the wrong decision on to many scholarships in their recruiting. Think of all the players that have left and the stop gaps they have tied up with multi year players. This isn’t football where you can miss on a couple every year, you have to be right a lot on who you bring in and then keep them, not enough scholarships to continue to make several mistakes each year.

    DeThaey, Harris, Raymond, Lewis, Purvis…..

    Is there anyone on our current roster that you would trade for one of those guys?

    This is an interesting comparison, btw.

    http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=desmond-lee&p1=rodney-purvis&p2=2-rodney-purvis

    I’d take Purvis over Lee if he wasn’t such a head case.

    I’d take Harris over Washington and Freeman in a heartbeat.

    Even with just the 1 exchange you made my point, that’s 5 players in 3 years of recruiting that left, though I wouldn’t count De Thaey since that was a transition year and he was Lowe recruit but was Harris as well? I can’t remember. Then you add in Freeman, who we all like but may never truly be ACC capable. Just too many scholarships, too many mistakes on the trail.

    I question Anya as well, what system is he best suited for? His weight gain in High School into College shows a lack of maturity and/or work habit that questions will he be able to ever do what is necessary to learn his position. Right now he’s great at shot blocking and taking up space but where does he fit into MG offense?

    #68582
    pakfanistan
    Participant

    You’d take Purvis over Lee even though they’re the exact same player?

    #68583
    Thinkpack17
    Participant

    Harris is a certified baller. His dad was a certified Nutter Butter. Do you remember him totally mis-remembering Harris’s stat line from the Sweet 16 game? He was playing behind our most consistent performer and one of our best 3 point threats of all time.

    The minutes weren’t there dad…sorry.

    #68584
    redisgood
    Participant

    “Beejay had zero points, zero rebounds, zero assists, and 4 turnovers in his 18 minutes on the floor. What part was he doing exactly?”

    He was at least doing his part on the pick and roll, that’s all I was talking about. There were several – 6, 7, 8? – times in the 2nd half that BJ rolled to the basket with no one on him, and no pass. That’s all I was saying. The other aspects may play a part, as Jigawatts said, maybe a lack of trust in BJ to finish

    I think you mentioned you only saw the 2nd half. In the 1st half, the few times they fed the ball to Beejay he acted like Barney Fife trying to arrest Charles Mansion. Shaky to say the least, and usually resulted in a turnover. Right or wrong, the guards have no confidence in him. That is something Gott has to fix.

    #68585
    BJD95
    Keymaster

    But that’s a pretty damned big “if” and one you can’t change. Purvis most definitely IS a headcase. We’re just lucky he didn’t totally poison the well before we got him out the door. Same with TAFKAWBS.

    Very interesting article and discussion, though. The Pitt game was so encouraging, as was the level of fight we showed in Hooville. But we need a win in one of the next two to show we’re serious about this thing.

    One thing I would like to see – anytime either Lacey or BSW is taking a rest…the two twin alignment MUST be on the floor. Creates energy and a different kind of offensive look. Otherwise defenses can just completely sag on whichever of the shooters remains on the floor.

    MG is showing more flexibility this year, and a willingness to learn is a good sign in a coach/leader. Jury is still out, in my opinion.

    #68586
    1.21 Jigawatts
    Keymaster

    You’d take Purvis over Lee even though they’re the exact same player?

    Yup, Lee has shown he has a low ceiling, at least Purvis has a much higher one and you can get more out of him. Like I said he’s a head case and as such would be a detriment to the team but skill set alone I’d take Purvis over Lee.

    #68587
    ncsu_kappa
    Participant

    I agree with most posters here that we don’t have a cohesive offensive scheme implemented yet. One thing I did like about Herb Sendek coached teams is that the players were well coached to execute his system. I didn’t say they were coached on the right system but…
    1. They moved well without the ball
    2. They set good screens
    3. They shot the ball when open and hit open shots like UVA did last night
    4. They cut hard to the basket
    5. They finished descently well at the rim
    6. They hit free throws

    I think if Gottfried’s teams could do those things well, plus leverage their above average athleticism one on one from time to time then we would have a really competitive team on the offensive side. I’m not going to comment on the defense because our offense contributes a little to our lackluster defense. When we get our offense working, which it has been effective at times, then I would prefer to critique our defense in isolation

    #68588
    1.21 Jigawatts
    Keymaster

    In this day of instant gratification, parent coaches, entitlement and sissified athletes you can’t stop kids from transferring. You just can’t. Duke loses players, Kentucky loses players, UNC loses players.

    Most of those transfers had someone else in their ear. I mean just look at the comments on this board. Anyone who has ever been a volunteer coach thinks they’re Doc Rivers. No wonder these kids don’t know who to listen to.

    Which shows how much more importance needs to be placed on recruiting the right players and not making multiple mistakes every year. Transfers happen today and as such you have to be right all the time because even when you make the right call on a player it doesn’t mean you will get to keep them.

    #68589
    pakfanistan
    Participant

    Can you list some of the “multiple mistakes” that are made in recruiting every year?

    #68590
    Whiteshoes67
    Participant

    <Moreover there does not seem to be any strategic synergies in Gott’s paradigm. He simply tries to recruit talented folks and have them run a relatively complex offense. Execution is not there…that’s his excuse. They are too young etc… I buy that its a great system if executed properly but that’s the rub…he can’t teach it effectively to college teams with churn. Moreover he doesn’t have mitigating talents to bring into the mix.

    Defense is not corrected by hiring an assistant coach…defensive teams spend hours in practice…ya know…practicing defense – until it becomes second nature…or HABIT>

    ^That’s it in a nutshell. Complex offense, requires highly skilled players, especially big men, that was perfected in a time when the game–particularly on defense–was played and officiated quite differently. Couple that with the challenges of player retention these days, inadequate attention to detail and fundamentals, his teams will frequently play on the margins, and occasionally lay some eggs.

    Bama’, part deux.

    #68591
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    I would request going back and looking at UVa and Pitt again.

    There is structure in the High Post in each game with a myriad of great looks.

    The problem as I see it? Our bigs play small.

    If 3/4 of the low post feeds get finished with authority, peeps would be having a tough time ripping Gottfried a new one, today.

    #68592
    Thinkpack17
    Participant

    ^Great point. Abu goes up soft, Freeman can’t finish with his left so he shoots back into trouble and BJ freaks when the double comes.

    Even when they go strong they go 0-fer from the free throw line. Not good.

    #68593
    PapaJohn
    Participant

    Excellent, it’s basketball season, so it must be “fire the basketball coach” season. Or minimally an assistant coach. (Cause nobody listened to us during football season when we clearly identified coaching changes that should be made. Wait, didn’t we have an 8-5 season? Yea, but think what good coaches could have done.)

    I get it, he’s lost 5 games. And not just losing them, but look at who he lost to. Wofford for heaven’s sake!!! Totally unacceptable. Cincy was a nightmare!

    Three years, and only made the Sweet 16 once.
    One of the 2 or 3 coaches in ACC history to take his first three teams to the NCAAT.
    Best ever first year for an ACC coach.
    Beat Duke when they were ranked #1.
    Most depth of talent this school has seen in a long time, maybe ever.

    “Yea, but his best season was with someone else’s recruits” – Think Sid would have made it to the Sweet 16? Did anyone on this site want to find out?

    “Hey, Valvano won it all in his third season. What is taking so long?” Yes, yes he did. Anything less is not acceptable.

    Yea, but what about all those transfers? He gets players, but can’t keep them” Absolutely right, unacceptable. Wait, don’t we have transfers? Didn’t they come from other schools? So other schools must have people leaving too? Which of those that left State would you prefer to keep instead of Trevor Lacey or Ralston Turner?

    “Yea, he gets talent but can’t develop them. If they can’t do it from day one, we’re toast.” But didn’t he figure out how to get that moron CJ to play with his “Calvin” strategy? Didn’t Richard Howell get in shape and play his best after Gott arrived? Didn’t Scott Wood excel? He even got Jordan Vandenberg to play well last year after doing nothing for three years.

    “But look at the numbers!! They just don’t bode well for the future.” Yep, you are probably right. Can’t argue with numbers.

    So, let’s get a new coach, this guy is not up to our standards. At the end of the season it will have been four years since that last catastrophe of a coaching search when no one wanted the job and we ended up with a TV guy. Things will be much more attractive now. Wait, why? Because secretly Archie Miller is dying to come back to State and he took the Flyers to the Elite 8 last season. And after three seasons as a head coach, and two seasons under Sean as an AC he’s ready for the ACC. And if he doesn’t take it, there’s got to be a long list of guys better than Gottfried who are dying to come to State.

    Alright, it all makes good sense to me, I’m on board. Let’s do it!

    #68594
    1.21 Jigawatts
    Keymaster

    If you take away this year’s current freshmen who appear At This Moment to be all quality players, then we’ve already listed all the “mistakes”. Now there will certainly be debate over players like Barber, Anya, Freeman, Lee, Turner, and Washington but that I think comes down to if some or all of those players are suited for whatever system MG is implementing. To me personally if you watch those players they either don’t fit the same type of system or don’t have the ability to play at this level, either way I consider it mistake, a mistake not on the players behalf but the coaching staff.

    This goes back to one of my original points in the comments: what is MG trying to do on the court and does the players he’s selected best fit that system? If we knew the answer to the first part we could probably identify which players are the “mistakes” in his selection process because those players skill sets do not complement each other and fit into a cohesive unit. That’s just my opinion from watching live sporting events and looking at data, nothing more.

    #68595
    1.21 Jigawatts
    Keymaster

    CD, I see the high post at times too but there is nothing consistent out on the court. As you pointed out maybe it’s because some of the players can’t play it. Maybe MG doesn’t use it enough? If it’s the former then maybe he (staff) made a mistake in evaluating the players he recruited? Maybe they are great practice players but horrible at implementing during a game?

    #68596
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I am in agreement with virtually everything jigs has posted.
    I remember when Brandon Costner was the problem with the Lowe teams. Now it’s Leslie, no it’s Purvis, wait it’s Lewis. At some point you have to realize it’s not the players.

    Nonetheless, these are the players Gott recruited. If they are the problem it’s his responsibility.

    #68597
    Thinkpack17
    Participant

    Nonetheless, these are the players Gott recruited. If they are the problem it’s his responsibility.

    Did he not bring Calvin around? Did he allow Rodney Purvis to hold him hostage? Did he not sack Ryan Harrow in favor of Lo Brown at the point as soon as he got in the door? They are only a problem if you don’t deal with it. You can’t predict with 100% certainty how a kid is going to respond to Division 1 college basketball.

    #68599
    pakfanistan
    Participant

    I think it’s worth noting that in four years, Gott has had what amounts to three completely different teams.

    #68600
    Rick
    Keymaster

    I think it’s worth noting that in four years, Gott has had what amounts to three completely different teams.

    And I think he is the first coach that had ever happened to

    #68601
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    And…wasn’t it the conscensus at SFN that this version would be playing together for quite awhile?

    As in no early pro entry?

    #68602
    Thinkpack17
    Participant

    I don’t see any early entry candidates right now. I don’t see any NBA prospects period, if I’m being honest.

    #68603
    bill.onthebeach
    Participant

    I would request going back and looking at UVa and Pitt again.

    There is structure in the High Post in each game with a myriad of great looks.

    The problem as I see it? Our bigs play small.

    If 3/4 of the low post feeds get finished with authority, peeps would be having a tough time ripping Gottfried a new one, today.

    ^This… for those who care to do their homework…

    For the first ten minutes of the VA game… on set offensive possessions… one of our BIGs touched the ball in the paint
    about 70% of the time BEFORE any shot was taken…

    … and we had a 10 point lead… against a very good team who did not take us seriously and came out soft…

    I did not chart the rest of the game… so don’t go there…

    Point is that in the last two weeks … the kids are doing what the Coach has been teaching them…
    Now they still GOTT to get better at finishing strong, at not thinking so much, just trusting the system and at the escapes when things don’t go their way…

    AND most importantly… they are playing HARD… which was a serious problem that now appears to have been resolved in large part..

    __________________

    For what’s is worth …
    there were more than a few plays back in 72-76 that Stormin’ Norman had me and others shaking our heads at…
    DT saved our ass on most of them…

    The shot clock does the same a lot of the time (not every time) … these days…

    #NCSU-North Carolina's #1 FOOTBALL school!
    #68604
    Rick
    Keymaster

    And…wasn’t it the conscensus at SFN that this version would be playing together for quite awhile?

    As in no early pro entry?

    It depends on who transfers

    #68605
    TheCOWDOG
    Moderator

    Rick, that can loom for sure. But I also have this crazy ass notion as to why people think that recruiting has “slowed.”

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