Is UNC About To Fire Up Its Football Waiver Wire? (updated 12/16)

[Note: if you haven’t read the 2nd update, please take the time to do so.]

The News and Observer has finally noticed that UNC football’s scholarship count and recruiting numbers don’t add up:

The Tar Heels will lose 12 scholarship seniors after they complete the 2008 season vs. West Virginia at the Meineke Bowl on Dec. 27. But coach Butch Davis and his staff have already secured 24 verbal commitments for next season — and they’re still recruiting.

Football Bowl Subdivision teams are allowed a maximum of 85 scholarship players on the roster and can sign a limit of 25 athletes each year.

While it is true that every school has some attrition every year above and beyond graduation due to talented players leaving early for the NFL, others who don’t keep their grades up, transfers, injuries, etc., thirteen potential openings in the off-season seems pretty high, leaving one possibility: a certain number of UNC’s current roster players will be told that they no longer have a scholarship.  In professional sports, that’s called being “waived.”

Interesting, and something to keep an eye on.

Update #1: Jerry Petercuskie (NC State’s recruiting coordinator comments, via The Wizard of Odds)

The Tar Heel coach’s tactics have caught the attention of rival North Carolina State and its recruiting coordinator, Jerry Petercuskie.

“We’re not in the market of oversigning, unless there’s a case where there are some borderline students who may not make it,” he said. “And in that case, there’s a plan for them.”

This gets to the heart of the matter. Recruiting is about building trust. If you can’t be trusted to honor a commitment, your reputation takes a hit.

Update #2: Joe Ovies of 850 The Buzz Takes an Opposite View and Links Back Here

Here’s a somewhat lengthy quote from an article that popped up on 850 The Buzz’s blog this morning:

The “Waiver Wire” Isn’t As Bad As It Sounds

Rival fans look at the recruiting numbers and automatically accuse the coach of breaking rules or being unethical. NC State fans like to call this the “UNC Waiver Wire”, and have been harping about it since the days of John Bunting. [SFN  note: I suppose that’s us, since the link is to this article.  More in a minute.]

Until Nick Saban battled Alabama reporters over his own fuzzy math, Steve Spurrier cleaned house at South Carolina, and now the recent N&O story, the over-recruiting topic was largely discussed only by the hardcore recruiting freaks on messageboards. Now it has gone relatively mainstream, and too many casual fans will get duped into misinformation about how this all goes down. Bottomline is that the majority of cases where a player loses his scholarship is justifiable, agreed upon or inevitable.[…]

So where do rival fans start showing their ignorance about the topic? When they start throwing around the word “waived” as if the coaching staff yanked the scholarship from under them and left them on the streets to go hungry. In most cases, the 4th-year junior who had a chance to graduate isn’t really upset when his 5th year is not renewed. These guys probably weren’t playing much anyway, realized playing professionally is off the table, and will go into some other line of work. There are instances where sophomores and juniors won’t have their scholarships renewed, but it doesn’t happen often and typically the kid knows where he stands if his performance isn’t up to par. It’s no different from an academic scholarship failing to renew because the student failed to maintain a certain GPA.

At the end of the day, the act of over-recruiting is easily twisted by those who want to paint a program with a broad brush.

Interesting, and Joe makes some good points.  At the same time, however, I fail to see where I said Butch Davis was unethical.  I did, however, mention the possibility that players might have their scholarships removed from them involuntarily.  Sure, it’s true that the majority of the time, there are good reasons for it — for example when Tom O’Brien tossed Cedric Hickman off of the team for breaking the law.  Davis would do the same thing and that’s completely expected and understandable.  So would any decent coach.  At the end of the day, it looks like Joe Ovies should have read the post here a little more closely before he started making accusations of “ignorance‘ and falsely accuse SFN of saying the Davis was “breaking rules or being unethical.” There’s a big difference between pointing out the possibility of something happening that might seem unsavory and making an accusation of cheating or being unethical, neither of which were made here.

Football Recruiting

52 Responses to Is UNC About To Fire Up Its Football Waiver Wire? (updated 12/16)

  1. choppack1 12/11/2008 at 12:13 PM #

    “I don’t remember any “grayshirts” at NCSU either. But I do remember recruits being encouraged to enroll in January rather than going through their spring HS graduations which has a similar affect as the “grayshirt.””

    Old13 – You’re simply mistaken. The not graduating from high school was something Amato and Doc knew could be done in specific circumstances to improve a kids core GPA. This wasn’t done to workaround the scholarships – as you seem so eager to imply – but rather – drumroll please – eligible to play football at NC State. This was the classic case of knowing exactly what the rules were – and how to stay w/in them to get a kid eligible.

    I’ve got news for you, if we get Sam Jones, he’ll be a “grayshirt” – but it’s not because we had too many scholarships for him to come – it’s because he wasn’t eligible last year.

    I find it odd that you are bending over backwards to defend this practice by saying “NC State has done that in this circumstance circumstance” – Then someone proves you wrong, and you go “NC STate does it in this circumstance”. Your best argument in this case is to simply say what I said to Alpha – it’s too early to call Butch out on this until these kids because we have no idea of the academic status of his recruiting class.

    Now, I’m looking for some #s from you to show how many academic scholarships have been rescinded because the student didn’t meet the academic or behavorial clauses. Also, there is no financial shortage for football scholarships at NC State, UNC or any other school that brings 50K a game to their stadiums 5-7 times a year – it’s an NCAA required cap.

  2. VaWolf82 12/11/2008 at 12:50 PM #

    I’ve got news for you, if we get Sam Jones, he’ll be a “grayshirt” – but it’s not because we had too many scholarships for him to come – it’s because he wasn’t eligible last year.

    I don’t consider this to be a grayshirt. Grayshirting is what UM tried to get Bobby Washington to do after he qualified (when they didn’t expect him to). They wanted him to sit at home for one semester and then enroll in January.

  3. choppack1 12/11/2008 at 1:01 PM #

    VaWolf – I agree w/ what you are saying, but it doesn’t matter what you call them – grayshirt/spring enrollers – whatever – they count the same way.

    I’d also say, I don’t have a problem w/ “grayshirting” a kid if he’s told up front about it. Of course, I can’t imagine why a staff would do that – if he’s not good enough for this year, what’s the point of offering him NEXT year, unless you aren’t planning to offer him at all. And as was obviously the case w/ Bobby Washington – there was a merit-based reason why he lost in the #s game at the “U”. If Bobby was a little stronger or faster – he isn’t the grayshirt, if everyone else doesn’t qualify – no grayshirt.

  4. cowdog 12/11/2008 at 2:21 PM #

    It’s not that easy to to pull a full-ride schol from a kid in Head Count sports. Most if not all scholarships for FB, BB, WBB and W Volleyball are guaranteed 4-5 yr rides. Forfeiture of those schols must find the kid in poor academic standing or guilty of gross misconduct, whether public or internal.

    Baseball and softball, and other university sports operate differently. The majority of those schols are truly and are in fact called renewable. Continuation from year to year is based on academic performance. It is often a leap of faith to accept these varieties, but most schools, if not all operate this way. Full guaranteed schols exist for those sports, but are limited in nature.
    I believe Wolf74 referred to Carolina baseball because they were stretching the parameters with their kids on what constituted achievement worthy of renewal.

    There really is no moral injustice perpetrated on a player who loses a full ride, because one can only lose it if he isn’t holding up to his end of the bargain and on field performance, lack of, has nothing to do with it. If a coach messes around with a full ride, there would be some serious issues.

  5. SEAT.5.F.2 12/11/2008 at 3:26 PM #

    Man, this thing might actually have legs. Sources say QB Greg Paulus is expected to get waived after the Muffler Bowl and that he is already actracting interest from another team.

    The news started slipping out when a mid level executive of the Detroit Lions reportedly let a reporter in on talks with a prospects father about whether or not the kid has to actually be better then anyone in order to play.

  6. choppack1 12/11/2008 at 3:56 PM #

    “It’s not that easy to to pull a full-ride schol from a kid in Head Count sports. Most if not all scholarships for FB, BB, WBB and W Volleyball are guaranteed 4-5 yr rides.”

    Hmm- that’s interesting – I hadn’t heard that before. Is that a state rule, a conference rule, a school rule or an NCAA rule – and why the difference between sports?

  7. VaWolf82 12/11/2008 at 4:08 PM #

    Most if not all scholarships for FB, BB, WBB and W Volleyball are guaranteed 4-5 yr rides

    I don’t think that this is true…at least based on what people have done in the past. Just this past year, Clemson cut the kid loose that got all of the attention for raising his younger brother.

  8. RedTerror29 12/11/2008 at 4:49 PM #

    Everydayshouldbesaturday looked at average number of commits by conference a year or two ago. UNC had the highest number in the ACC. This is nothing new.

    They’re smart enough to avoid cutting kids over there, though. They just send Dharma-the-hot-hippie-who-shaves-her-legs around with a big bag of weed and the cops 10 minutes behind.

  9. Mike 12/11/2008 at 5:17 PM #

    RedTerror, if Dharma does not work, they can always send naked men to the players apartments and tie them up and bind them with a shoestring.

  10. hball57 12/11/2008 at 6:06 PM #

    All scholarships in all sports are yearly renewable. Nothing is guaranteed for 4-5 years. Which is something I believe should be changed.

    On the basketball team, should we get 2 or 3 more players, I believe we will come up with some scholarship packages for players in order to make room.

  11. cowdog 12/11/2008 at 6:27 PM #

    Chop and Va82, you are not on ignore. Sprung a leak at one of the f…n’ skylights and had to deal with that.
    Don’t take what I wrote out of context.

    My daughter is being recruited in softball, I had to get back in the game to understand how scholarships work 36???? years after my own?

    Went to a seminar for enlightenment and what I learned was basically what I wrote. It’s pretty much right on…try Googling while I get back to the leak. The folks that spoke that night are on there.

    Ray Ray at Clemson, Perhaps one of the issues that a coach messing with schols has to answer to. Don’t know if he was on the full or renewable, nobody talked.

  12. cowdog 12/11/2008 at 6:52 PM #

    Hball…you took my statemant out of context too.

    All of ya’ll investigate the diff between schols available and parameters guiding them.

    Gotta get back on the roof.

  13. vtpackfan 12/11/2008 at 7:53 PM #

    Almost on que;

    Terell Edwardsplayer a player our staff spotted a long time ago out of South Carolina just decommitted to VT and is has looking over the NC State option again.
    Why?

    “Decommitted from Virginia Tech because he was a grayshirt candidate (December 2008). Twin brother, Tariq, is committed to Virginia Tech. His father, Bo Campbell, played receiver at Virginia Tech from 1988-’91…”

  14. Primewolf 12/11/2008 at 8:30 PM #

    old13, what is it you don’t understand???

    Surely you know the difference between a greyshirt and someone recruited in the current class that enrolls in Jan.

    Surely,you know the difference between continually running kids off and kicking folks off the team, esp those that aren’t contributing.

    Surely you can appreciate the difference in blatant over-recruiting vs signed a few extra knowing that a few won’t make it.

    But then again, you sound as clueless as Butch, but can write better.

    The problem for UNC folks is that Butch is really doing some damage at that school and they are in a Catch 22. They know they have a full-fledged slime ball, but don’t know what to do about it. Heck, they are planning a stadium enlargement that will further the pressure for continued unethical behavior. Your best bet is that he leaves quickly, vs leaving the baby blues in a world of a mess with all those Dwight Jones of the world and professional waiver wire.

    Go read a a dozen books on leadership. I hate to break the news to you, but Butch doesn’t have the integrity to be a good leader and will not last long at any one place. I bet Butch will make a fine case study for the UNX school of business one day as a way not to do things.

  15. LRM 12/11/2008 at 10:57 PM #

    I don’t understand why State fans are so eager for Butch to move on up in the world. I hope he sticks around. They finally have their Mike O’Cain.

  16. TampaPack 12/12/2008 at 8:42 AM #

    This will probably get buried down here, but its already starting to get some national attention.

    http://www.thewizofodds.com/the_wiz_of_odds/2008/12/is-north-carolina-overrecruiting.html#more

  17. Packman02 12/12/2008 at 10:06 AM #

    Thanks for TWOO link TampaPack. Glad to see those closing remarks highlighted in the update – recruiting is, indeed, about building trust.

    You build that trust by responsibly honoring the commitment you make to a young man’s athletic, educational and personal development. If a kid makes a commitment to you and to your program, you owe him at least that much – its a two way street.

  18. Noah 12/12/2008 at 10:20 AM #

    I am not an assistant coach and I do not recruit for my paycheck.

    But…if I did, I would be calling every kid on Carolina’s list and using this against them.

    “Son, I see you’re committed to UNC. I understand that is where you want to go, but I want you to ask yourself — are they committed to you?”

  19. Alpha Wolf 12/12/2008 at 10:24 AM #

    ^ You can bet that the classic negative recruiters are doing that.

    Butch needs to be very careful, lest he poison the well for himself in this region.

  20. wufpup76 12/12/2008 at 11:11 AM #

    ^Just like with $aban, if the Holes win this mostly blows over (at least in the media) … if they lose or are average at best … well, then there could be more than just some egg on the face

  21. SEAT.5.F.2 12/12/2008 at 11:19 AM #

    Petercuskie is our Recruiting Coordinator and special teams coach

    1) THe heavy praise put on TOB’s doorstep over the years as a recruiter, there’s you face and name.

    2) Our special teams this year haven’t got the media’s attention like VT and UNC, but look at where Brad Pierson is at. Who’s taken it to the house twice and not had a TD return scored upon them. Teams don’t even let Grahm touch it on KO’s and we start somewhere between 30-40.

    Grayshirting is just a part in the system so I can’t make a huge deal out of it. TOB wants a full class to RS each of them. They arrive in the fall right after HS, go scout team, lift weights, stretch, get good grades. Greyshirters end up expecting to show up in time for the spring practice and hopefully burn there redshirt.

    The hidden part of BMFD is that there are guys that they offered this past summer who jumped at the chance really fast, unsure if they would get any better offers. For all the love the top end “star” guys get for the UNC class there are some early committ’s the are some “who” type guys. The staff may pull a Ohio State type tactic and tell these guys;

    Blake: “Hey, we want you to play this exact position as soon as you get here. Look at these 4* guys we also hae coming in that you’ll be doing drills at your position with. Won’t that be fun?

    How many hats do you hope to bring to the media coverage of your live LOI signing. …Your not having one? These others commits who I mentioned are having one and they just got two hats..a UNC hat and a Nite Blue Carolina hat…HA HA!

  22. smile102 12/12/2008 at 4:30 PM #

    “LRMNo Gravatar
    Dec 11th, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    I don’t understand why State fans are so eager for Butch to move on up in the world. I hope he sticks around. They finally have their Mike O’Cain.”

    Because most believe he is a really good coach; his progress and recruiting support that view. Otherwise the comments would mirror those expressed by UNC fans about Herb S.

  23. turfpack 12/12/2008 at 9:17 PM #

    As a H.S. coach I have already heard some rumblings about B.D.’s
    recuiting tactics and some coaches are pissed.-LET YOU KNOW WHEN I HEAR MORE……………….

  24. wufpup76 12/16/2008 at 6:21 PM #

    Re: Update #2 …

    Funny how some people love to paint others as “ignorant” while using their own broad strokes and selective criticisms

    While Ovies’ comments certainly apply to a few specific people, he goes ahead and labels an entire fan base – or in this case, blog – as ignorant and biased (no argument on the bias, I guess – we love NC State … but that doesn’t mean we can’t be objective)

    There’s always a clever way to make yourself seem like you’re the “smart” guy or the “voice of reason” … Ovies has always come off to me as this kind of guy

    Also, this story was picked up nationally, not just at SFN … don’t do it if you don’t want to catch the flak for it … Justifiable or not, people will think it stinks if it looks like it does

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. The “Waiver Wire” Isn’t As Bad As It Sounds at 850 & 620 THE BLOG - 12/16/2008

    6XLST0 A big thank you for your blog article. Really Cool.

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