How bad was Saturday’s defense?

Check out the statistics generated on Saturday by Boston College. (Even though Eagle in Atlanta is still mad at us, we don’t let petty grudges keep us from linking to good information) Despite the Wolfpack’s depleted roster, it is hard to come to any conclusion other than – Steve Logan made Mike Archer look like his whipping boy.

I still can’t get over the fact that NC State could lose a game where we forced three turnovers while committing only one penalty and not committing any turnovers!?!?

Despite all of those pass attempts, NC State’s defense had only one sack on Saturday. The Wolfpack has pathetic two sacks in the last four games. Oh yeah, those are the four games since Alan Michael-Cash was injured.

The Wolfpack’s poorly executed zone defense has definitely made the secondary look horrible, but it all starts up front. State’s (a) weak pass rush and (b) ineffective blitzes have done nothing to help the thin secondary. Of course, this kind of offensive line play doesn’t help the Wolfpack’s cause.

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'08 Football

62 Responses to How bad was Saturday’s defense?

  1. choppack1 10/06/2008 at 10:12 AM #

    I just did a quick review of our participation roster for Saturday’s game:
    Here goes:
    Starters: 7 Seniors, (2 former walkons), 6 JRs, 4 SOs, 5 FRs

    Of 22 guys, you seniors leading the way (2 of them walkons though.) Still, not that bad…But here’s where I think the problems reveal themselves.

    We played 20 other guys. Here’s the break down of that 20.
    3 SRs, 5 JRs, 3 SOs, 9 FR; 5 Walkons are in those #s.

    So, out of the 42 guys that played on offense and Defense Saturday, here’s your breakdown:
    10 SRs
    11 JRs
    7 SOs
    14 FRs.
    7 Walkons.

    Out: J Williams (JR), Irving (SO), Cash (JR)

    If you add those 3 starters…You’ve got 13 Jrs, and 8 SOs. So, if you’re looking for good news, we’ve got 33 out of top 43 back next year. So, in the true spirit of being a wolfpack fan – I say, Wait Till Next Year!

    And if you talk about drop offs – it looks like this year’s sophomores represent a very tiny class. We’ve got some good ones in there – Irving, Vermiglio, Spencer and Jarivs Williams, but to have only 8 of these guys on your 2 deep lets us know we could be in for more pain. In a nice balanced allocation, these guys would be stepping up – and the ones playing are – they represent a lot of our best talent, but football is often a numbers game – and we’re hurting here.

    Also, it’s worth noting that in the 2 deep of our Juniors and Seniors – we have at least 5 jucos/transfers. (McKean, Willis, Holmes, Burgess and Clem Johnson.) If you take those 5 out of the mix…wow, it becomes really ugly and fairly obvious the path we were headed down. (Think of your 2 deep w/out those roughly 25% of the current JRs and Seniors.)

  2. Noah 10/06/2008 at 10:16 AM #

    I don’t think we should onsides kick, but I do think we need to be much more aggressive about going for it on fourth down. So much so that the playcalling on third down needs to go ahead and assume four-down drives (meaning on third and 18, you try to pick up 10 to set yourself up for fourth down).

  3. Wolfenstein1 10/06/2008 at 10:29 AM #

    Our coaches have done a good job with the cards that have been dealt. Archer had to pick his poison. If we could have gotten to the QB things might have been different but with that big OL they probably would have just run different plays worn out the DL. As I said Archer had to pick his poison. With the injuries, young players and little depth I was surprised we were able to be close in the end. Size and experience do make a difference.

  4. choppack1 10/06/2008 at 10:37 AM #

    Here’s a question…where do our future DBs come from? We lose 2 of our 4 starters back there from this year’s team.

    When you look at our 2 deep, we’ll bring back the following:
    DeAndre Morgan – CB – (SO)
    Byers – S -(FR)
    Clem Johnson – S – (JR)
    George – CB?(JR)
    Domique Ellis – CB? (FR)

    We also get Javon Walker back (in theory)…but do we have any CBs in our freshmen class this year that is red-shirting?

    I guess we’d be OK at the safety spot, but from what I can tell, we’ll only have 2 scholarship DBs on our roster next year…I know I’m missing one or two – but if this is the case, well, our secondary may be hurting next year too.

  5. OwenDorm83 10/06/2008 at 10:37 AM #

    Linebackers and DBs were getting burned over and over and over. LBs looked like they had concrete blocks for shoes. Corner over-ran one play by 15 to 20 yards & had no earthly clue where the ball was.

  6. BJD95 10/06/2008 at 10:45 AM #

    We quite possibly have the worst LBs in ACC history.

  7. Noah 10/06/2008 at 10:51 AM #

    I don’t keep up with FB recruiting as much as I do BB, but I for one, had no clue from any reports that it was this bad. That isn’t meant to be cheapshot at anyone playing right now, I’m speaking more about the overall lack of depth.

    That was redfred in one of the topics.

    Basically, 2005 was the last decent year Amato had on the recruiting trail…and that year was undercut once Doc Holliday split. In retrospect, we would have been much better off to fire Amato that day and just go ahead and start looking for a new coach.

    In 2005, we had five big-time recruits: Andre Brown, Toney Baker, Curtis Crouch, JC Neal and Garret Kilne.

    By 2006, we had no real big-time recruits. The top guy was Justin Burke. The only OL in the entire class was Gary Gregory (who has never played in anything other than mop-up duty). It was an entire class full of skill position players….lightly-recruited skill position players, no less. Some of those guys turned out to be okay. Nate Irving and Javon Walker and Donald Bowens were in that class.

    It was, however, the attrition that really killed us. Look at our roster and look at those recruiting lists and you’ll see something like 40 to 50 percent of those classes aren’t even here. That’s the thing that really killed us.

    Although, an entire class with NO off. linemen in it is just ridiculous.

  8. choppack1 10/06/2008 at 10:55 AM #

    BJD – But at least there’s some hope on that front. We’ve got at least 2 freshmen redshirting at those positions – Beasley and Manning – and we should get Ware back. So, we should have at least 7 LBs on the roster next year…(Irving, Maddox, Michel, Lucas, Beasley, Manning and Ware) that I know of. Those 6 should represent a fairly solid LB corp. Compare this to the BC game where we played w/ a true freshman and a walk on as our starter, and another walk on and true freshman on our 6 deep.

    Like I said, I’m worried about our DBs next year.

  9. SEAT.5.F.2 10/06/2008 at 11:00 AM #

    Chopp^

    We will be league avg./to above average very soon. Cunningham, Wilson, Grant will put us in the same boat as this year, RS freshman getting put into the fire, but with some good coaching/learning there could be one there who could step up.

    Hopefully Ellis can grow up fast this season since he will could potentially be the CB to take over for Gray. I wish Byers could get a chance at this position but it seems numbers have really been an issue at S.

    What the hell was Chuck doing at S? He was recruiting one every other year (Dujuan Morgan- KC Chiefs and Morgan -IR) and that is completely unacceptible.

  10. wufpup76 10/06/2008 at 11:41 AM #

    Some folks have mentioned Archer; I have no problem w/ the job he is doing and actually think he’s doing quite well considering the hands he’s been dealt

    For one, even w/ the personnel we currently have we are forcing TO’s … our margin may not be the best, but consider what our turnover margin is when Russell Wilson starts – it’s actually pretty good (I didn’t take the time to look it up, but we’ve not turned it over much when RW is in the backfield and the D is producing 2-3 TO’s per game) … Prior to the Cash and Irving injuries, our D was actually pretty decent, all things considered … Excuses are excuses, but when you step back and take a look you may see a different perspective

    It would have been nice to see any QB pressure applied by our D against both USF and BC, but can you really put all of that on Archer? No way … Sure, it’s his job to make what he has work – so to that end you can take him to task a bit – but we simply have to get some quality depth in all areas of our D … Some of our starters aren’t bad – but we all know we need some more personnel for our D

    I’m actually quite excited about the foundation that’s being built … I’m optimistic about our offense for the first time in a long time … Special teams play continues to improve (I know, still need to shore up the kicking game a bit) … Combine offensive and special teams improvement with a better situation for our Defense and we could be not too shabby in a couple of seasons … Some people buy into stats more than others, but I do know Turnover margin is a key stat when compared to the Win / Loss column … *If* we can improve our Defense AND keep getting a high positive TO margin there could be some good things in our future 🙂 … I can finally see some light through all the trees in the deep forest we’re in

  11. redfred2 10/06/2008 at 11:43 AM #

    I agree with ^^Chop way back up there. Two ways to use the blitz, the first is to mix it in as an occassional tactic in hopes of making something spectacular happen, but that’s usually when you have a solid defense to back it up if the attempt fails. Second way is employ the blitz to make up for a decided deficit in talent, which means you must bring it EARLY AND OFTEN, while hoping to offset the timing of the OL and receivers, as well as getting into the QB’s head EARLY IN THE GAME. I don’t know how a defense like ours can stop a offense that executes as well BC did on Saturday, when we sit back EARLY IN THE GAME allowing them to get into their stride and develop a rhythym.

    I think we needed to use the blitz in the second way I mentioned, but it seems we went with the first instead.

  12. Par Shooter 10/06/2008 at 11:44 AM #

    It really has been the attrition that’s killed us as much as the lack of quality recruiting in the first place. If you look just at the LB position, we should have Thomas Barnes and John Ware in the mix for depth as well as Avery Vogt as a RS-Jr who would almost certainly be starting. I’m pretty sure that Vogt quit the team after the coaching change and of course Barnes was signed by TOB. I have no idea about Ware’s academics prior to this year but I believe this is the 1st year he’s missed.

    The Barnes deal is a real head scratcher. The rumor was that he reported to camp totally overweight and out of shape. This after having played some as a true-fr and showing some promise. With hard work he would have easily projected to be a starter over R. Leonard and yet he apparently just didn’t go after it. It’s hard to pin this on Amato since he was a commit and signee after TOB took over. I don’t know if he was on our board as a result of the previous staff or if the new staff found him. While it’s on the kid to work hard and improve, I’ve got to admit that I’m a little disappointed in the S&C guys and his position coach that they couldn’t find a way to motivate a player who clearly could have played a ton and helped this year.

    If you really look at TOB’s formula for success, lack of attrition plays a big role. Many of the things that he builds upon (improved TO margin, low penalties, frequent redshirting) are already being seen in Raleigh but he has done nothing yet to stem attrition. I believe he lost 5 guys from the current true freshman class which was his 1st full class. That is the exact problem that leads to the depth issues which he inherited from Amato. To succeed here I think TOB is going to need to add (not just sign) 25 players for the next couple of years and will need those guys to still be here as jr and sr.

  13. Pack92 10/06/2008 at 11:47 AM #

    Who really cares about the holes? They are making a pretty good living kicking the crap out of big least door-mat teams – all of which just happens to be on national television. FUnny how when UConn and Rutgers start to return to their normal form they have unx on the schedule. I seem to remember EZU being the talk of the football world recently until they started playing decent teams.
    NOW we are seeing the true value of Nate Irving and Alan Michael Cash. We need them both back ASAP but Irving in any way, shape or form would be great. Willie Young HAS to have Cash to be effective. He’s just too small to get around double teams.

  14. McPete 10/06/2008 at 12:08 PM #

    “Who really cares about the holes? They are making a pretty good living kicking the crap out of big least door-mat teams”

    unfortunately we’re a door-mat team too. to the casual observer, seeing unc quickly rise and us stuck in the mud doesn’t look good. i’m sure unc coaches will use that in recruiting against us. hopefully we can still use our roster numbers as a recruiting tool and get some nice players. because unc will get theirs. i knew we were in trouble when, in their 1st friggin 3 months, they get the top defensive prospect in the country in Marvin Austin (who is by the way starting and playing well already) and gets greg little to decommit from notre dame. we have to get some guys that are talented enough to play right away. who from this year’s recruiting class will be able to do that?

  15. Daily Update 10/06/2008 at 12:12 PM #

    Choppack: There are a few DBs redshirting –

    Gary Grant **, 6.0″, 190 lbs,
    Akeem Cunningham *, 5’11”, 185 lbs(Signed late and was unknown)
    Earl Wolff ***, 6’0″, 190 lbs
    Brandon Barnes ****, looks like he will stick at RB

    2009 commits:

    Dean Hayes ***, 5’11”, 178 lbs

  16. choppack1 10/06/2008 at 12:13 PM #

    Seat 5f2 – That’s good info – thanks for it. Hopefully, all 3 of those guys can play some corner.

    The truth is, I don’t worry too much about a freshman who has been redshirted – I think in many cases – those guys are ready to go – and are sometimes an upgrade over what’s been on the field in the past. They should know the system, their big challenge is just to get used to the speed of the game against an opponent.

    Overall, I’m w/holding judgement on this year’s team. There are some different things I’d like to see on D – but, we aren’t playing w/ a full deck out there. What we did do on D vs. USC for 3 quarters and vs. Clemson for 3 quarters was impressive enough to give me some hope for the future. Of course, we can have a basketballesque type meltdown on D which could change that.

  17. choppack1 10/06/2008 at 12:38 PM #

    Daily – Thanks – you and Seat 5.2 provided some good info. It sounds like we may at least some depth on the way. Our young WR core has done pretty well. I feel pretty good about that unit overall. So, in theory, if we can keep these guys in school and coach them up – they should be ready to contribute in a positive way next year.

    Seeing the DB depth gives me a little hope. Like I said, if you look at our line-up, next year looks like it should yield some dividends. Heck, this year could have yielded some dividents w/out some key injuries.

    We’ll see. I see these things a lot of ways. Like BJD – I realized that this was an excellent shot at what could be a rare W for us. However, like others, I see us starting to build a program and play the kind of football our staff wants us to play. I guess right now is just accepting the pill that we don’t have all of the players we need right now to win this way.

  18. wufpup76 10/06/2008 at 1:52 PM #

    ^Chapel Hill is akin to Notre Dame … In fact, I’m surprised the Irish aren’t ranked in the Top 10 after another glorious victory over STANFORD or one of the service acadamies

    Remember when Notre Dame would be ranked #3 after a win over Air Force (or any other team – like San Diego State) year-after-year only to get beat down by good / great competition? This is exactly how I see the Holes this season … They deserve credit for improving and beating who they’ve played, but the center still seems kind of hollow to me … Top 25? I don’t really think so (then again, there is a lot of parity these days) … At any rate, prove it to me a little more before they are annointed as the next greatest thing by national and local media … And by ‘proving it’ I mean not blowing a big lead to VT, or beating a rebounding Rutgers team, or jumping on a decent UConn team playing w/out their (very good) QB

    If they make a bowl, I guess we’ll see how they hold up against hopefully someone from the SEC, Big 12, or whoever

  19. Par Shooter 10/06/2008 at 1:54 PM #

    An accurate and patient QB with some receivers who will work the middle of the field can really hurt a D such as ours unless we get pressure from the front 4. It is what you give up in exchange for having 11 guys face the ball for run support and hopefully not giving up big plays down field. Even if you have a great back-7 the middle of the field has openings against a zone. We don’t have a great back-7. Honestly there are openings all over the field against our zone. Very big windows.

    I think the idea is that you hope you can get pressure and force the QB to rush things. Keep everything in front of the secondary and come up and hit the receivers hard on every catch. Make them earn yards by making the QB make good decisions and good throws and the receivers hang onto the ball. If played properly they should start hearing footsteps over the middle. It’s not necessarily designed to force 3 and out every time, but is more of a bend but (hopefully) don’t break. Try to force a TO or a couple of bad throws to get off the field.

    You also hope that you can make teams throw rather than just running it at you all day. If you think about how our run D has played with all of the injuries and lack of talent/experience I think you’ll see that the scheme is accomplishing some of what it is designed to even in these tough times. I think Crane and Grothe would have had a lot of success exploiting our LB and safeties even if we had played man with no pressure.

  20. Pack92 10/06/2008 at 2:27 PM #

    McPete, in all the success I saw TOB have at BC I really don’t remember too many “blue chip” recruits clamoring to go there or winding up there. He took what he got, built sound fundamental football teams and put many players in the NFL. Ol’ butch-slap may get his”star” media players but for the long haul I’ll take the TOB method. Who, by the way, cleaned butch-slaps clock in this state last year in recruiting. That may seem trivial but we are producing national caliber talent in this state (look at our population growth over the last 15 years) and if we can just get 50-70% of the top 10-15 every year we own this state – and that includes the mighty media darlings in chapel hole. Maybe we don’t play as many freshman immediately as they do in the hole but then again TOB isn’t looking for media attention to get him to his next job. I believe he is looking to build a program.

  21. choppack1 10/06/2008 at 2:46 PM #

    PS – good point. The one thing I’d add is that the last 3 qbs have killed us w/ their feet…and that their running has become more effective in the second half. In the first half – and really much of the game – I thought we kept BC from running w/ their running backs.

  22. Wulfpack 10/06/2008 at 3:18 PM #

    Chapel Hill beat the ever living crap out of Rutgers and UConn, a top-25 last week, on national television, so that is influencing the media and will help recruiting Si suppose. They also outplayed the Hokies for 3 and a half quarters, so they aren’t chopped liver. They are a good team and quickly getting better. If you are hoping they won’t make a bowl, you better be saying your prayers b/c the ACC is bad and they have a very weak schedule the rest of the way.

    I still say we can find a way to beat them this year. If we can just put it all together, just once, that’s all I ask for this team this year. How great would that be?

  23. Par Shooter 10/06/2008 at 3:21 PM #

    The read option is tough for anyone to defend – that’s why so many teams (including us) are mixing it in as a part of their running game. I think teams are really taking advantage of Maddux inexperience and running the QB towards him. It looked to me like he got sucked inside by the fake a few times and then lost contain on the QB. That’s what happened on the TD (I believe, I haven’t seen a replay). That didn’t happen as much with Irving on the boundary side.

  24. 66pack 10/06/2008 at 3:41 PM #

    I recall commenting when Bubting was fired that unc would bring in a well known coach with a national reputation and they did.I also thought when they did this it would be difficult for ncsu to compete with them for unc has an excellent reputation in most sports.I had no idea that it would happen so fast but unc had good players when BD arrived and his recruiting has taken off in this state and nationally.ncsu’s hpoe is they beat ND and finish the regular season with one lost and is hired by another school.But this time I fear money will be no object in keeping him.

  25. wufpaxno1 10/06/2008 at 3:43 PM #

    We will be fine this year once we get Cash, Irving, and Crouch back. Clem Johnson was impressive in his first game with the Pack and should help in shoring up the secondary. Hopefully we will have the above mentioned back and be at our healthiest since the opening game by FSU. An upset win on a nationally televised Thursday night game would be very nice.

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