BBall: Last Bytes of the Year; +21 in 20 Minutes

Despite the holidays, we’ve posted a ton of stuff to the site in recent days…so, if you haven’t been visiting a lot then we ask that you don’t overlook some of our entries like the ACC expansion pieces and our comprehensive “BC fans” piece.

===> We obviously followed the Wolfpack’s win over Western Carolina closely. (See link) Pack Pride has a lot of links in their Web Run, including a link to Andrew Jones’ report card that includes the following grade on intangibles:

State intangibles: At some point State is going to be humbled enough to understand it just can’t walk onto the floor and beat teams, even ones like Western Carolina. Coach Sidney Lowe said his club was tired, that some players are playing a lot of minutes, etc. Ben McCauley – who never made such excuses a year ago when nearly 40 minutes was the norm for State’s top players – said coming off a (quick) trip to Seton Hall and playing two days later affected the team. There’s no excuse to only lead WCU by a point with 3:27 left, especially when you’ve already lost to New Orleans and ECU and have been pushed by several other mediocre-to-bad teams. The Wolfpack notched the victory and it required some toughness and smart play on offense to do so. For that, it deserves credit. But there’s just no reason this team should ever take anyone lightly. That’s on the staff and the players. Grade: F.

===>I know that a lot of fans are very frustrated with the Wolfpack’s tendancy to play ‘down’ to their competition as highlighted in Andrew Jones’ previous comments. I don’t criticize anyone for feeling this way as it obviously frustrating. However, as it relates to yesterday’s game I am going to make two mitigating points:

(1) State outscored Western by 21 points in the second half. 21 points in 20 minutes. I don’t have a problem if you were frustrated by the effort in the first half. However, you may be choosing to be just a little too negative if you allow the negative to define your perspective of the entire afternoon. As bad as the first half was, the second half was equally good.

(2) State was playing only our second game without starting point guard, Farnold Degand. Fans looking for blowouts need to remember that the point guard has the ball in his hand more than any other player on the court and therefore dictates the direction of the game. Even with Degand we aren’t built for blowouts like some teams.

===>Seaking of ^point guard, I was doing the math on Farnold Degand’s knee injury the other day. I am very happy to see that Coach Lowe has requested a medical redshirt from the NCAA in light of Farnold’s circumstances.

===>With ^that said, I am going to say something that those of you who like to keep your head buried in the sand won’t like and those of you who come to SFN for honest and accurate conversation with appreciate – especially if Degand gets an extra year of eligibility, I foresee a significant log jam at the point guard position in the future that can only be fixed by the transfer of more than one player currently on the team. During the year when we will be recruiting all-everything point guard, John Wall from Raleigh’s Word of God High School, the Wolfpack’s roster is projected to include FIVE (of 13) scholarship players who project to play the point: Trevor Ferguson (R-Jr); Marques Johnson (Jr); Farnold Degand (potentially a R-So); Javi Gonzalez (So); and Julius Mays (Fr).

===>For overall scholarship distribution and for the talent distribution of the point guard position while trying to recruit John Wall, I would expect that Trevor Ferguson has little to no future of playing time at NC State. Additionally, if Javi Gonzalez continues to project behind both Farnold Degand and Marques Johnson while NC State tries to land John Wall, then one has to wonder if Gonzalez will want to stick around Raleigh for all four years?

===>Few teams have been as pleasantly surprising this year as the University of Miami Hurricanes. Heading into the weekend the Hurricanes were ranked in the Top 20 with an 11-0 record and had seen the RPI as high as #2 in the country! But, to the detriment of the ACC, the Canes lost at home to previously 6-5 Winthrop. No word from the NCAA if the game counts when no fans show up to watch.

===>Speaking of RPIs, NC State fans will be happy know that Wolfpack is currently at a very solid #38 with two cupcakes ahead before entering ACC play. As I previously commented, as long as we can get out of the out of conference at 11-3 then the strength of the ACC will solidify our RPI and create a situation where the Wolfpack can secure an NCAA Tournament berth (before the ACC Tournament) with an 8-8 conference record.

===>The following are few RPI’s of interest now that we are about 35% to 40% through the season:

(5) UNC-CH
(10) Michigan State
(18) Duke
(32) Villanova
(36) Florida State
(38) NC State
(40) Clemson
(49) Seton Hall
(50) Indiana
(52) Miami (FL)
(54) UCLA
(57) Boston College
(60) Virginia
(62) Georgetown
(72) Georgia Tech
(79) Wake Forest
(96) Virginia Tech
(104) Arizona State
(107) South Carolina
(128) Florida
(143) New Orleans
(151) Rider
(157) Davidson
(170) UNC-Asheville
(171) East Carolina (thanks NC State)
(172) Maryland

07-08 Basketball

68 Responses to BBall: Last Bytes of the Year; +21 in 20 Minutes

  1. ShootingGuard 01/01/2008 at 4:36 PM #

    Sweet Jumper & RedFred,

    I don’t totally disagree with your points about the team’s “killer instinct” and the potential for doing better than they have so far, even without a 5-Star point guard.

    The problem is that we don’t even have a 4-Star point guard with any experience (at best, MJ is a 4* SG with zero experience converting to PG), and we don’t have any bullets in our gun (i.e. shooters) to kill anybody. We need to defend & rebound better in order to be able to run (even though we are a slow team) and get more easy baskets, That would help a lot, but, other than that, we are slow and have to plod around and set up the halfcourt set with multiple passes in order to play to our only potential advantage, the front court. Guys like Ty Lawson can make it look easy by taking it coast-to-coast on their own and guys like Taylor King can make it look easy by bombing you out from the logo when you thought you were playing good defense. We don’t have those luxuries. Unlike the best and most consistent teams in the country, we have to work hard for about every score we get. We have to work hard to beat a good team like Nova while still having to work hard to beat lesser teams. Nothing comes easy for us. We have little margin for error.

    I agree that we can do better, but I think people underestimate how gigantic and far reaching the effects of (1) not having an ELITE talent point guard or at least a top 100 talent point guard with EXPERIENCE, and (2) not having shooters have and will continue to have on us.

    Just look at Wake the year after Chris Paul left. I was at the game when Paul led Wake to a big defeat of eventual national champion UNC. The very next year, without Paul, Wake was bottom of the barrel. Justin Gray was a dagger shooter with a killer instinct, but he was subpar without Paul running the show. I have played ball against Chris “Creedy Cree” Ellis, and I can tell you that guy was a fierce competitor, even in pickup games that did not matter, but he and the rest of the talent they had like Eric Williams were lost without Paul at the point.

    Reverse that and look at what playing with John Wall is doing for CJ Leslie. Does anyone really think Leslie—or any other big guy for that matter—will reach his full potential if he does not remain surrounded by talent out front to set him up and spur him onward? The biggest problem with NC State basketball for the last many years has been that we have, as of yet, never matched the marginal/NBA talent on the wing and front court with NBA talent out front directing the action. How good would Brandon or JJ be or become if they had joined a program led by a future NBA point guard or a marginal/NBA talent at point guard with experience?

    Not having talent and/or experience at the point equates to a loss of leadership and respect and confidence. Atsur wasn’t surpremely talented, but he was experienced and had the respect and confidence of Brandon and Ben and the guys as a leader. When Atsur was around, the team was good. When Atsur was out, the team struggled trying to find its identity without a clear leader. This year’s team is having the same problem which is no reflection on Degand, MJ, or JG personally—it is just that neither of those guys have the talent or the experience to demand respect and crack heads if need be. A guy like Lawson or Singletary could step in and crack heads based on their talent and reputations, and our team would be a championship contender with those guys. If Bobby Hurley could punch and fight with Laettner to get everyone on the same page, then lord knows a guy like Brandon would have to get in line if a guy as fierce and talented as Singletary were in his grill in practice all the time. A guy like MJ could become a leader like Atsur OVER TIME, but it is simply an uphill battle right now—he will have to earn the guys confidence and respect gradually. Until then or until an elite level point guard talent enters the mix through recruiting, we are Trent Dilfer on offense hoping a Ray Lewis defense emerges to help us win more than we lose.

  2. Trip 01/01/2008 at 6:54 PM #

    Look at pictures taken from the WCU game at wral.com.

    http://www.wral.com/sports/image_gallery/2231226/

    At least from some of the pictures, MJ looks like he is taking a leadership role on the team, and he seems to play with a cocky confidence which is something that we need right now at the PG position.

    I find it strange that we’re considering Costner (A power forward) and Horner/Grant (small forwards) our consistant 3 point shooters, but I suppose it shouldn’t be that much of a surprise since they are Herb recruits.

    Fells must know when his shot is off, because he doesn’t seem to shoot a lot in games when he misses his first few shots, which lends into the theory someone said here beforehand that when Fells makes his first 3 pt shot, that he’s in for a big game.

    I could honestly see this team beating Carolina at their house, only to turn around and lay an egg when VT comes home. We’re inconsistent, which has to be scary to Roy when he knows that his team is playing their hardest, but has no idea what our “Hardest” is.

  3. Sweet jumper 01/01/2008 at 9:15 PM #

    Dan Wiederer wrote an article about the GSK Invitational in the Fayetteville Observer today. He talks about how good John Wall and CJ Leslie are and how great they can be. Wall led his team past Larry Drew’s (UNX point guard signee) team in the semis. It would be great if Sid can sign Wall or another 5 star point guard to stick it to Drew for several years. I hope Leslie can learn about work ethic from JJ before JJ goes pro. According to his coach, he can be a superstar if he develops good work habits.

  4. gcpack 01/01/2008 at 9:49 PM #

    More help with our RPI………Cincy knocks off Louisville in L’ville! We’ll need it with the screw ups in the UNO & ECU games. Anyone see that ECU lost at home to Lee College!? of the NAIA division? Unreal that we lost that game.

  5. packgrad93 01/02/2008 at 12:57 PM #

    Ferg will never play point, he’a a back-up 2.
    Mayes will be an step-up at PG once he gets in the mix. Keep an eye on L. Brown for ’09, a 5* PG out of GA.
    We’re also evaluating ’10 PGs Taylor & Thornton.
    We really will need a 5 on the ’09 class. Kelly & Favors would be nice!

  6. stejen 01/02/2008 at 1:02 PM #

    How about letting Lowe do his job? Yes we lost to at least two teams we should have beaten but we have not played a cupcake schedule either. It would have been much easier to play the cupcakes and have a 150-50 lead with Leatner, Ferry. Hurley, etc., still on the floor with two minutes left in the game (as I have seen happen before) or Lowe can give his guys a chance and try to build a foundation. Nobody knew Hickson would be as good as he is and nobody knew Degand
    would get injured. Give Lowe a chance

  7. packgrad93 01/02/2008 at 1:51 PM #

    “We had no ELITE point and only set shooters under Herb which ultimately undermined him and kept fans frustrated,”

    niether did most other teams, they don’t grow on trees.

    Herb’s PGs:
    Miller – top50
    Crawford – top70
    Hodge – top10
    Atsur – not ranked (easily top 100 if ranked)
    Bethel – xfer
    Wright – top15, changed his mind after Herb left

  8. redfred2 01/02/2008 at 8:22 PM #

    Oh boy, THE DEFENDER is back.

    I’ll guarantee you one thing packgrad93, none of those kids were as highly ranked when they LEFT Raleigh. And really, that’s all US TRUE WOLFPACK FANS are really concerned about anyway.

  9. redfred2 01/02/2008 at 8:38 PM #

    ^Correction, Atsur came in as a solid player with leadership qualities and he did improve, even during his conversion into “the system”.

  10. ShootingGuard 01/03/2008 at 1:51 AM #

    “niether did most other teams, they don’t grow on trees.

    Herb’s PGs:
    Miller – top50
    Crawford – top70
    Hodge – top10
    Atsur – not ranked (easily top 100 if ranked)
    Bethel – xfer
    Wright – top15, changed his mind after Herb left”

    You are a complete idiot—and a reaching idiot at that.

    Miller was a 5′ set shooter who was incredibly limited on defense. Sorry if you bought into that top 50 ranking and Archie’s potential to lead the program to championship contention. You should have seen that NOT coming, just like you should have known Adam Simons would NOT be the “next Nowitski”.

    I would have rather had Steve Blake, national champion and NBA point guard, than Cliff Crawford, “the best point guard I have ever seen” according to Herbie at the time. Very unfortunate evaluation there, Budda…

    Hodge was not even a point guard, so you obviously only list him so you can brag about Herb’s “great” recruiting. If he was such a great recruiter, then logic would say that he, in turn, was a crappy coach based on his mediocre results.

    Atsur was a set shooting combo guard more suited to being a role playing 3-pt zone buster than a lead guard if we were talking about a championship contender. You know, kind of like Bobby Frasor, more highly ranked than Atsur ever dreamed of, did for UNC (backing up ELITE pg Ty Lawson) before his injury. In Herb’s program, of course, role players like Atsur and Evtimov were forced to be the stars. Hence, why State fans suffered when it counted. You know, like when a real coach guided Bobby Frasor and 2 walk-ons to a “rivalry” trouncing of Herb’s senior laden decade-in-the-making-team by 24 on its home floor at the RBC…

    Bethel was a set shooting combo guard ranked outside of the top 100 when he went to Gtown.

    I can’t believe you list Chris Wright as some great accomplishment for Herb and the program. It took Herb over a decade to get to Chris Wright. And, still, he doesn’t even start for JT3, who rebuilt Gtown from the dumps into a title contender—before Chris Wright even got there—in about 1/3 of the time it took Herb to make State simply mediocre. How was JT3 able to beat UNC and go to the Final Four without Chris Wright when Herb fans told everyone not to worry about the drubbing by UNC’s walk-ons or the Texas beat down—just WTNY after this NY when Chris Wright gets here!

    I don’t give a damn about your stupid pitty rankings. The fact is that Herb picked Cliff Crawford in his quest to make downtrodden State into mediocre State while Gary Williams took Steve Blake and made downtrodden UM into ACC and NCAA champions. Maryland, GT, Wake, Duke, UNC, and countless programs throughout the nation were able to land ELITE point guards and shooters/scorers all over the Herb Sendek DECADE…Herb never did, and that’s why he failed to win the ACC. If Sid fills in these deficiencies, he will succeed. If Sid does not, he will fail to win the ACC just like Herb did.

  11. Sweet jumper 01/03/2008 at 9:52 AM #

    Shooting guard, Thanks for responding to packgrad93’s delusional evaluation. You saved a lot of us a great deal of typing time.

  12. packgrad93 01/03/2008 at 10:15 AM #

    “Miller was a 5′ set shooter who was incredibly limited on defense. Sorry if you bought into that top 50 ranking”

    yep, & when I say Herb’s recruiting improved over the years all the bashers bring up how it didn’t cause Archie/Kelley/etc were top50 just like Fells/Powell/Brack etc..

    “I would have rather had Steve Blake, national champion and NBA point guard, than Cliff Crawford”

    hindsight is 20/20

    “Hodge was not even a point guard”

    what was he then? not a shooting guard or small forward. He was at his best at PG creating. What position is he playing in the NBA?

    “You know, kind of like Bobby Frasor, more highly ranked than Atsur ever dreamed of, did for UNC ”

    unc has/had more talent than 99% of other teams, not just us.

  13. ShootingGuard 01/03/2008 at 2:37 PM #

    “yep, & when I say Herb’s recruiting improved over the years all the bashers bring up how it didn’t cause Archie/Kelley/etc were top50 just like Fells/Powell/Brack etc..”

    I don’t disagree with your assertion that Herb’s recruiting improved—I think Herb started recruiting more fundamentally skilled basketball players and was probably going to have less transfers going forward. Unfortunately, he still did NOT recruit a pure point guard or an ELITE point guard or any dagger shooters. That’s not bashing, that’s just brutal honesty—if Sid doesn’t bring in pure point guard talent and some dagger shooters, he will fail to win ACC Titles just like Herb did. The only real bashing is versus YOUR total HYPOCRISY in turning around and using those same rankings you question to support the man you love.

    “hindsight is 20/20”

    It was NOT hindsight for Herb—he saw Blake and Crawford AHEAD OF TIME. It is up to the recruiting coach to actually EVALUATE talent AHEAD OF TIME. Unfortunately, Herb failed on this with regard to Blake and Crawford, Ron Anderson, Rouldra Thomas, Adam Harrington, Keith Bean, Marshall Williams, Damien Wilkins, Mike Bell, Adam Simons, Trey Guidry, Justin Flatt, MOD, etc.

    “what was he then? not a shooting guard or small forward. He was at his best at PG creating. What position is he playing in the NBA?”

    Here’s where your hypocritical logic deludes you per usual. If Hodge was the point guard, what were Miller, Atsur and Bethel, etc. all doing when they played with Hodge? Were they all point guards? Wow, we must have been great during all of those end game situations with so many pure elite talented point guards running the show! Especially that time that Cliff Crawford came on the court as the 6TH point guard! No way we would ever crumble under pressure and blow a 19 pt lead in front of God and everybody in the ACCT with all of that elite point guard talent on the floor!

    Hodge was a great one-on-one player. He was not a point guard. You only need to look at his SENIOR game versus Duke where he single-handedly—and without coach intervention—turned a close game into a blowout at the RBC by going 1-on-5 about 10 times in a row without being pulled to the disgust of Cam and the rest of the guys. Just like Herb told Damien Wilkins, Herb told Hodge on the recruiting trail that he could be the man at State and that the team would be built around him. Josh Powell said as much when he left. Fortunately, Hodge didn’t have the family baggage of Damien Wilkins, so there were some decent moments thanks to Hodge. Of course, Wilkins and Powell left and—amazingly without Herb’s patented development—found their way onto NBA rosters. To my knowledge, Hodge is NOT playing in the NBA as you again like to conveniently lie or twist things to win some weird point. Hodge is playing overseas in the Borat league right now even after “learning more in one day in the NBA than he did in four years of college” ( Hodge’s assessment, not mine). And, please don’t blame that on the shooting as Hodge was NBDL before that sad event.

    “unc has/had more talent than 99% of other teams, not just us.”

    And, still, somehow, rebuilt programs like Maryland and Wake, etc. were able to have their days against HOF coaches at UNC and win ACC Titles, go to Final Fours and NCAA Championship games (add GT to the list here), and even win an NCAA Title…While Herb lovers were content with BCA Titles and early NCAA exits and a load of excuses and recruiting rankings and future point guards who were going to save the 2ND decade!

    For those wondering why the Herb “debate” with the Herb lover continues, the point is that Sid needs to do the good things that Herb did BUT Sid also needs to correct the deficiencies that Herb never seemed able to address such as (surprise): (1) pure point guard with talent > makeshift combo guard at point (2) dagger shooters > set shooters who can’t create their own shots. If Sid addresses these past gaps, he will succeed beyond Sendek. If Sid does not address these past gaps, Sid will be mediocre like Herb or worse.

  14. STLPACK 01/03/2008 at 2:42 PM #

    Interesting note on RPI… IIRC Western Carolina’s RPI went UP about 10 spots in losing to us.

    I was at the game and WC played pretty good in the 1st half when they were shooting the lights out. It will be interesting to see how they do in the southern conference. It all depends on their shooting.

    It was fun to watch Cinci beat Louisville on tuesday. Remember, wins by our OOC oponents help our RPI. Especially when the OOC comes with a regognizable name like Cinci, it helps our tourney hopes.

  15. packgrad93 01/03/2008 at 3:43 PM #

    “Herb failed on this with regard to Blake and Crawford, Ron Anderson, Rouldra Thomas, Adam Harrington, Keith Bean, Marshall Williams, Damien Wilkins, Mike Bell, Adam Simons, Trey Guidry, Justin Flatt, MOD, etc”

    nice generalization there. Blake turned out to be the better player, but is HS Cliff was. Maybe work ethic, late blooming & the team around the player make some difference too huh? As far as the rest of those listed, most would have been good players for NCSU if they had the guts to stick it out. Some of those guys had nice careers other places, looks like decent talent evaluation to me.

    “Especially that time that Cliff Crawford came on the court as the 6TH point guard!”

    what are you talking about? Miller & Crawford never played with Atsur & Bethel. Quit making up crap again.

    “Just like Herb told Damien Wilkins, Herb told Hodge on the recruiting trail that he could be the man at State and that the team would be built around him.”

    what do you think Sid told JJ? or is telling Wall or Favors?

  16. redfred2 01/03/2008 at 8:28 PM #

    Clifford Crawford may have actually been a better HS player with potential than a Steve Blake, but unfortunately, Crawford choose to go to NC State. Same with Scooter Sherrill, and a list of players a mile long.

    It’s plain and simple packgrad, either ” ” couldn’t recruit as well as you think he could, OR, he couldn’t coach. Myself, I gave him at least some credit for recruiting eventhough he couldn’t ever put together a complete team. As for his coaching, well…

  17. Rick 01/05/2008 at 8:16 AM #

    I posted this to packgrad in another thread. He proves it over and over.

    Here is every post you ever made in one sentence.
    “Herb is great and you are stoopid if you do not agree wiht me!!!1!!1!!!!”

  18. packgrad93 01/07/2008 at 10:02 AM #

    If every thread here didn’t bash Herb one way or another I wouldn’t need to correct myths & lies about the man.

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