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I personally didn’t think the foul on TJW was a bad call. It could have gone either way from a shooting foul to on-the-floor.
I’m ready to move on past this heartbreaking loss. It hurts and there are still a lot of games left to win. This team’s coming together nicely and if they don’t let this game get to them they have a good chance at a nice run to setup a tourney bid. Even the loss turned a lot of heads and got people thinking about State as an NCAA tourney team.
So, discussing the actual call. I’ve watched the video from two angles and my opinion is that the foul was committed when TJ was still dribbling. I’m not exactly sure whether he is, by rule, allowed to then leave the floor to shoot. But it would appear that the foul was committed before he was in the act of shooting (although the call, of course, was not). Someone else will have to inform me what the exact rules are on “the act of shooting”.
I think the bigger problem was the idea of a flagrant 1 foul. I’ve looked up the official rules:
Flagrant 1 Personal Live
A personal foul that is
excessive, but not based
on the severity of the actI though I’ve read somewhere that committing a foul with two hands is a flagrant 1. It seems clear to me that the defender had his right hand on TJ’s back and reaches around with his left hand to swat his arms. I don’t see how this wasn’t reviewed and determined to be a flagrant 1 foul. Can someone clarify the two-hand idea for me.
IF it is not a flagrant 1 foul, I think the correct call was a foul on the floor.
The way I see it is we played with the “best” team in the nation like we belonged for 39 minutes. Unfortunately when you’re playing a team of that caliber you’ve got to play and beat them for 40 minutes. That didn’t happen.
The real question moving forward is what team will we see moving forward? Will they roll over and die or will they bring it like that for the rest of the scheduled games?
I was so freaking impressed by the teams ability to rebound against Syracuse. That type of effort needs to be brought every night. Tyler did a fantastic job taking care of the ball. The only thing he should have done different was foul the ever living F(_)CK out of CJ Fair at the end of the game.^1000%. Tyler should have fouled Fair well before he had a chance to put that layup up. If nothing else, it would have stopped the clock.
Well, here’s some documentation.
No, we are not imaging this. No school is this unlucky.
Nav… You do know that if Tyler had fouled Fair… it would’ve been a flagrant 1!
haha. I kid.
Kind of.
“People can argue all day about the TJW foul, but the constant fouls called away from the ball that enabled Syracuse to score during much of the second half are what still has me angry. They were constantly getting all of their points from the charity stripe (17-1 free throw count at one point).”
^This was truly the difference in the game. IIRC, there were two holding calls against Washington within 10 seconds … both away from the ball – and I think a third holding call on Washington within the next minute of game play. We didn’t get a single replay of a foul called away from the ball, which by-and-large was the only reason Syracuse was in the game at that point (tons of free throws).
Now, if you want to say that our guys were warned about style of play and but committed fouls anyway – that’s fine. But this was a complete inverse of the way the game was called in the first half. In that half, we were aggressive and got in the bonus well before Syracuse. Why the change? If you want to give credit to Syracuse, that’s fine – but the overwhelming amount of fouls on us in the 2nd half were away from the ball.
They may have been fouls … but who knows? We didn’t get to see any of them. Combine that with the discrepancies of how the game was called in half #1 and the free throw disparity in the second half and you can see why people might be upset. Should we have gotten to line more in the 2nd half? Perhaps not – but our defense won that game Saturday. Free throws from off the ball calls made the difference. I don’t blame anyone for being upset by losing to off the ball foul calls.
The sad thing is, I knew we weren’t going to win. I knew we were going to give it away. Why? Because that’s what we do. That’s who we are . We’ve been that way for a long time, and it’s hard to believe that we’re going to change anytime soon. No, we did what we do. And there’s always a reason:
It was a bad call. It was a whole game of bad calls. It was a costly turnover. It was poor execution. The other team hit a full court shot. There was an injury. We’re a young team. We have a bad coach. We don’t have the talent. There was an unlucky break. We had a lot of players unexpectedly transfer. We’re rebuilding. There was a snowstorm. There was an earthquake. An asteroid hit Australia. A moose farted somewhere. It doesn’t matter. There’s always a reason. And there’s always a reason to wait till next year.
So we’ll keep on waiting and keep on hoping while we keep on watching the same movie over and over. Maybe the channel will change some day…but I doubt it.
How many times did Scott Wood get called for intentional fouls for putting two hands on someone to stop a fast break? How was this any different.
I can guarantee that if Warren’s jersey said McAdoo or Parker on the back, that it would have been an and-1 at worst.
Did not get to see foul on TJW. Has it been posted? Would like to see how it compares to the continuation basket in the second half of Duke/twerps.
God. Looking at this again and I’m still angry. I don’t know who you people are who say that was an appropriately called foul on the floor, but you must be blind. With the new continuation rules, that is clearly an and-one.
So, the documentation of us being unlucky in a large number of losses is that (how ironic is this), Herb Sendek’s ASU team was the benefit of a no-call playing against Sean Miller’s AZ team, and Duke was the benefactor of an “administrative error” in their game against Maryland…
This doesn’t really establish a pattern of “bad calls” against US.
I guess you could consider the no-call on ASU vs. AZ as “against US” because we like to hate on Herb.
But, we kind of hate on Duke and Maryland the same (I personally blame everything that goes wrong for me in life on Greivis Vásquez), so I don’t know how that was against us,….
So, unless we are deciding that the ACC wanted Duke to beat Maryland because it would make our RPI worse (since we had beaten Maryland, not Duke), rather than because Maryland was abandoning the conference, I don’t see how this like was “documentation”.
I think we like being thought of as the lunatic fringe.
I’m having a hard time letting this go. What bothers me most is the lack of justice. I generally regard sports officials as being impartial arbiters of their sport’s rules. Of course they are human and make mistakes, but overall I hold them in high regard, and I believe they truly see themselves as unbiased bastions of fairness. But what we saw on Saturday was a miscarriage of justice any way you slice it. One team, though universally considered the weaker of the two, had fought to a one-point lead. That team then executes a perfect breakaway to apparently seal the game. The other team’s player, in desperation, commits an infraction by (intentionally) fouling in an attempt to keep TJ from scoring. His foul fails to prevent the score; he’s been bested. Of all the choices the official has in this situation, there is really only one that will lead to an unfair result, and that is of course the one he went with. If he’d swallowed the whistle, would there have been even one word of complaint from Syracuse? (Wait, wait, we fouled him! On purpose! Give him 2 shots and the ball!) Nope. They would have brought the ball down and tried to set up for a tying 3-pointer at the buzzer. No call, and-one, intentional— any of these would have led to a just result (not necessarily a State win, but a just result). Instead, a team that deserved an upset win, and did exactly what they needed to do to seal that win, was put in the position of having to do it again. Even if the foul did occur a split second before the act of shooting began (which I’m not convinced of), justice demanded a call other than the one made. I don’t know the nuances of the rules well enough to say which call would have been technically correct, but I know injustice when I see it. [As an aside, this is where hockey’s delayed penalty and soccer’s advantage rule are vastly superior in preserving justice. Teams should NEVER be rewarded for committing fouls to thwart clear scoring chances. I’ve never understood why this has been allowed to go on in basketball.]
Well this is a fun one.
There’s no “intentional” foul by name now, but such a foul is part of the definition of a Flagrant 1.
Art. 2 Personal Foul, Part c., Item 3: Pushing or holding a player from behind to prevent a score.
The play could certainly qualify in that regard.
Item 2 says: Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball or player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting.
That could apply as well.
Cooney was behind the play the entire time. Sure he swiped “at the ball”, sort of. But the fact is that State had the balls to run that play, almost to perfection, caught Cuse off guard then the ref bailed them out. How many times have you seen a defensive player hold up when he’s behind a guy with ball, heading for the basket? It’s because it would be called.
So Flagrant 1, no basket. Fine by me. TJ gets FTs AND State gets the ball. Sounds about right.
I also noticed on the resulting inbound play that TJ is open under the basket. I dare say things would have been different if he had received the ball there.
And the “smiling ref” after the Lee miscue really bugs me.
I dunno TRS. This is a 1/4 speed view. The call looks correct. I see a reach in foul on the floor before TJW traveled with the ball. 3 steps after the bounce.
It looks like a good call. The arguments for continuation as well as the quick calls on State to start the half a re legit arguments. Hopefully we learn to close out games and won’t have to worry about this.
I’ll just say that more than not that would be called a shooting foul regardless of what the technical definition of the rule is. But I think he had started his shooting motion for a layup and if you use that for the basis of deciding a block or charge it should apply here also.
That said we shouldn’t have turned the damn ball over…
To those who keep saying that the kids needed to make a play to finish off Syracuse, your argument is completely flawed. TJ WARREN MADE THAT PLAY. HE GOT A STEAL AND WAS FOULED ON THE BREAK AWAY. MADE THE SHOT AND WAS HEADED TO THE LINE WITH A CHANCE TO ICE IT. That was the play you keep talking about them not making. They did make it, but the refs took it. So quit whining about how it’s all on the players. When they made the play, it was stolen. So I guess they should have made two plays. Or do you think it should have been three? They made that many and more. But the refs changed the game. Period. In a one point game it matters. That’s all anyone is saying.
Thanks for the 1/4 speed. I don’t know the rules well enough to determine if it was a continuation or not, but it sure looked like a broken tackle which Warren ran through for the game winning TD.
F1 two shots and the ball.If the refs had at least looked at it again, and I think they should have, coach could have worked the inbounds play a little better.
How many times did Scott Wood get called for intentional fouls for putting two hands on someone to stop a fast break? How was this any different.
The Cuse player caught up to Warren and tried to make a play on the ball. There is no shove. A small grab but then a clear swipe.
Continuation debate? Absolutely.
No shove? Maybe not with his hands but surely with the body. Cooney was way out of position, desperately trying to catch up to the play, made a wild “attempt” at the ball and knocked TJ off his line. The first photo clearly shows a hold with Cooney’s right hand, not a grab per se but holding TJ back. Then Cooney crashes into TJ with his chest.
[edit] Just added another pic showing the end of foul shove. Look, the dude was doing all that he could to keep TJ from scoring without really making a play on the ball. That’s a flagrant 1.
Perhaps TJ should have flopped and gone careening across the floor flailing his arms and legs instead of trying to make the bucket.
Thanks for both post showing TJW play. I like the break away play to basket that created the foul. Think it was a shooting foul. The next inbound play was not executed properly. After basket by Syracuse, one of the coaches could have questioned the time run off to get play set up and calm players. They had the no 1 team in the nation beat. See positives for future, but hate this was taken from them.
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