The NC State soccer team has forfeited their only ACC victory this season over Boston College because they used an ineligible player. The information was out last week, however there is no explanation to be found on the NC State official website. The game story still has us winning, but the game has been changed on the schedule to reflect a 0-1 loss. The Technician coincidentally has a story today explaining the situation with quotes from Head Coach George Tarantini:
“It is certainly something we have never faced before,” Tarantini said. “We discussed the situation right away.”
The forfeit was due to the participation of an ineligible player. The ineligibility was based on the number of red cards the student athlete accumulated over the previous games played. According to Lindsey Rogers, associate director of media relations for the ACC, the ineligible player was determined by a self report to the NCAA from the N.C. State coaching staff.
We have highlighted the performance of the soccer program in the past. While Lee Fowler obviously doesn’t consider competing for titles in men’s soccer a requirement for employment at NC State, then is it too much to ask a coach to understand and follow the most basic rules of the game to not directly cost his kids a conference victory?
What the hell happened?
Does anyone know which particular farm animal Tarantini has pictures of Fowler blowing?
The kid probably wore the wrong socks or something.
Whatever it was, I’ll bet Lee and Oblinger will over react and treat it as another reason to give away as many NC State concessions as their two brains can possibly conjure up. They’ll strap on their goody two shoes, be apologizing to GT, the ACC, the NCAA, for decades to come.
Soccer, as it regards to NC State, just fell off the radar screen.
Just another pitiful example of gross incompetence . . . Foulup . . . administration . . . of Wolfpack athletics. (Is this really NEWs!)
This was not Fowler’s fault, for once.
This was Tarantini’s fault. A player received his second red card of the season and thus had to sit out 2 games. He only sat out one game and then played against BC.
When ws the last time an ACC school had to forfeit a game because of an ineligible player?
And then shockingly, it happened to OUR school under our new worst sport, now that volleyball has started winning.
^ So to whom does Tarantini answer! This is not the first incident with him - not to mention his lack of success on the field. Ultimately it IS Foulup’s fault!
Um… if I’m AD and I’ve had a player on one of my teams disqualified for ANYTHING, I darn sure make sure the coach understands the situation.
And if the coach thought (speculation) that 2 games means the one you get tossed from and the next one, well… the AD has something else to be doing in that situation.
If NC State forfeited the 2-0 win as stated above, and the result was changed on the schedule to reflect a 1-0 Wolfpack loss, then how can the game be considered a “no contest” for ACC seeding purposes?
Somebody help me out here……….
I would assume the “no contest” would apply to tiebreakers? That is pure speculation…
Somebody made a mistake, a bad mistake, whether it was a misunderstanding or an act of sheer disregard for the rules, those folks were caught, and there are consequences. That’s fair enough, and I have no problem with that at all. What I’m talking about is NC State itself, stepping in with it’s tail between it’s legs, not holding any ONE PERSON accountable as is always the case, making the situation worse than it already is, and then acting as if they are doing something noble, ALL in name of NC STATE University.
Let Lee Foulup coach soccer he knows basketball-sorry to him it’s the same thing.
Lee said -it’s all rite good buddy everyboby makes mistakes,besides it’s just soccer -we’ll give you a new 3yr contract -that’ll help.
It really wasn’t the coach’s or the AD’s fault. If we only had the facilities this sort of thing would not happen…
Most likely some sort of internet fringe group was involved as well confusing Tarantini as to the rules.
old 13 wrote “So to whom does Tarantini answer!”
I know a member of the team. Practices are useless and Fowler and Tarantini are tight (best friends). So to answer your question Tarantini answers to no one.
One more reason Fowler must go.
^what whitefang said … and this was BC, too
dam* it
Nobody to blame but the coach and the player involved. It’s the coaches job to manage the team. A player would also have to understand the rules. How can you not know how many games you sit after two red cards?
IDIOTS
It’s pitiful how inept we are.
It was my fault. I was so tired of seeing us lose all the time I snuck onto the field and scored our goal. I was hoping no one would notice. :-\
Are we purposely as a University trying not to be competitive in athletics? It sure seems that way at times.
Wasn’t Tarantini also the LAX coach when that team got completely out of control? The solution then, under a different AD I believe, was to drop the sport but keep the coach. This had to be late 80s/ early 90s.
To answer the seeding question, this will not impact our seed because we were going to be seeded last either way.
^ So to whom does Tarantini answer! This is not the first incident with him - not to mention his lack of success on the field. Ultimately it IS Foulup’s fault!
So to whom does LF answer? Ultimately, according to Old13’s logic, it’s Oblinger’s fault. No, wait a minute, to whom does Oblinger answer? The BOT. It’s the BOT’s fault. And actually it is because if the BOT prioritized athletic excellence at a higher level at NCSU, then the BOT would give Oblinger instructions to replace the AD based on the overall won/lost record. But first the BOT would remove Institutional Control from the AD’s office and give the AD authority to hire and fire. Responsibility without authority is ludicrous.
Blaming the AD for not doing what he cannot do, is like blaming the QB for not passing when the OC is sends in a running play. And how long would the OC last if he went against the HC’s dictates? The QB executes the OC’s play call, the OC calls plays inside the offense the HC wants run, The HC has the say about philosophy of wide open or conservative as well as the kind of student athlete to recruit. This chain of responsibility continues right up to the BOT’s policy for student athletes.
At NCSU the BOT’s priority is academic excellence with athletics at an appropriate place in the big scheme of things as the choosen path at NCSU. To argue the AD’s role should be to do anything other than fulfill on the BOT’s intention, is to demonstrate either ignorance of how the system works or blatant disregard for truth or fairness in assessment of the AD’s performance.
All criticism inside the AD’s mandate to carry out the BOT’s policy is fair and just. All criticism outside that mandate is just pettiness and says way more about the critics than it does about the AD who is being criticized.
IMO as long as we are being stupid in our criticism of the AD, we are ultimately damaging any chance of having the AD replaced. As a body we want SFN to be an influence in NCSU athletics. When we express ourselves in ways that demonstrate our ignorance of how the system works, we hinder our ability to cause change.
BOT members have distinctions in responsibility authority that apparently most of us do not. The BOT is acutely aware of the AD’s authority and responsibility. They and Oblinger hold the AD responsible for all that occurs inside the realm of athletics at NCSU. They do not expect not want the AD operating outside his authority.
Putting a negative spin on EVERYTHING the AD says, may SEEM like a good idea, when in fact it insults the intelligence of the very people we want to listen to us. Every member of the BOT knows that the AD is *responsible* for everything that happens inside the Athletics Department. They also know that the AD does not have the authority to hire and fire without due process and justification.
We experts on administration here on SFN seem to think that public backstabbing of department employees should be SOP. Fowler has been repeatedly taken to task for his public support of HCs who are failing in their won/lost record. Public support of the people in his employ as long as they are employed at NCSU is expected and required by the BOT. Public flogging of coaches who are not winning would not be tolerated by Oblinger or the BOT. Don’t expect Oblinger to do that with the AD either.
To hire and fire on a whim is not permissible at an academic institution such as NCSU not can a case for dismissal be made in the won and loss record of a coach at NCSU by any AD here. The institutional controls imposed on our Athletic Department do not make the job of AD at NCSU attractive to qualified ADs who are on an upward career path.
TOB had stated his three priorities with equal emphasis. He will not be judged on his won/lost record alone. And at NCSU with our priorities as set by the BOT, he should not and will not be judged that way by those that matter. Hint: that ain’t us.
Can you explain to me why Lee Fowler cannot replace George Tarantini?
How would replacing a coach who has been at NC State as long as Tarantini be “firing and hiring on a whim”?
What institutional controls are there on the AD in terms of hiring and firing?
In terms of “due process and justification”, then do you really think a case cannot be made to fire Tarantini based on his record and mistakes such as this one that caused a forfeit? Are there other coaches who are making this same mistake and producing similar records where universities have been unable to replace them?
Serious questions.
NCSU just sinks lower and lower under the Fowler/Oblinger watch.
We are on the edge of irrelevance.
The point is, Greywolf, that in a well-managed organization, an underling who’s performance is REPEATEDLY subpar would be removed from the position by the manager. And a manager who REPEATEDLY displays incompentency and fails to set and meet performance goals for his department/organization would be removed from the position by whomever has the responsibility/authority - on up the ladder. In my view, there are a number of culprits responsible for the current miserable condition of Wolfpack athletics and, yes, some responsibility does extend all the way up to the BOT.
While athletics is certainly not the main purpose of universities, they do add to the university experience for students. And if this is the only purpose of athletics at NCSU, then why even be a D1 member. By being a D1 member, and providing athletic scholarships on that basis, the university raises expectations for the competitiveness of its athletics to the highest level. But there is no follow-through at NCSU to that end. In my view, it is just downright wrong to take people’s/fans’/alumni’s money under the guise of building competitive athletics at NCSU and then not manage the purpose for which the money is given in a competent manner. And that, as I see it, is exactly the situation at NCSU!
I agree with Greywolf - good post.
How does the BOT feel about an AD that criticizes donors in the mass media?
Seriously.
This is just sad. I feel badly for the players who finally had something positive going for them. The deck is stacked against anyone who strives to acheive excellence in atheletics at NCSU.
I read greywolf’s post, twice, and I’m not quite getting the point.
So greywolf, I take it from what you are saying, all of the men and women who are employed in the upper tier of NC State University basically have their hands tied, all because of the BOT. Which would mean that when it is blatently apparent that any employee is not functioning or getting his/her job done properly, that the NC State administration, or in this case the Chancellor, or the Athletic Director HAS ABSOLUTELY NO INFLUENCE in hiring and firing the people who he is ultimately responsible for?
First, you are saying that the BOT’s major concern is academics. Then, at the very same time, you are saying that the administrators who are responsible for facets other than academics can’t make a decision about personnel without having the OK of the BOT.
That is all crapola. But even if it isn’t, would you, Greywolf, please so kind as to explain how another school, with another athletic department, that’s in our own backyard, and has all of THE VERY SAME CRITERIA IN ACADEMICS that you use an excuse for NC State’s administration/athletics department, but that close neighbor is a flat WINNER in almost everything they attempt in athletics?
Your post reminds me of something from my old buddy, wolfpackforever.
Also, while greywolf is at it, can he explain his point when he talks about “To hire and fire on a whim”?
Is this Tarantini we are talking about? I can’t believe that you mean canning Tarantini after well over a decade of our men’s soccer program being a screaming disaster that we, after an horrendous error with this latest red card caper, would be firing Tarantini “on a whim”?
GOOD REPLY REDFRED2 FOR READING GREYWOLF OVER AND OVER ONLY GAVE ME A HEADACHE.
Greywolf, the only thing consistent about your commentaries on this blog is that it is always terrible and aimed at making someone else feel like an idiot.
As a lifelong fan, I’m used to losing. I don’t like it, but I’m used to it.
The major difference between this mistake and chronic losing is the nature. A mistake like this is embarassing. The number of reds a player has is NOT hard to track and should be something that the coach should be aware of. Essentially, this makes it look like Tarantini doesn’t know what’s going on. If the coach doesn’t even know what’s going on, then who does? If no-one knows what’s going on, then how do we EVER expect to win?
I can forgive tactical mistakes. I can forgive losing because of player errors on the field. I cannot forgive a mistake like this, because it makes us all look stupid. One can imagine that it probably isn’t bothering Tarantini too much that he gave away the one ACC victory we have in the new fuhcileties that the fans have paid for.
When will the madness end? I was sure that Fowler would get the pink-slip when he skipped out on that dinner in Charlotte a few months ago. As I am told by opposing fans all the time, we look like idiots.
Grey, it’s cool to play devil’s advocate and to also point out other perspectives b/c there are indeed (at least) two sides to every story … BUT, the buck has to stop somewhere
Are you happy or unhappy with the state of athletics at NC State University? If you’re unhappy, where then does the responsibility for this ‘State of State’ lie? It may not all be on the AD’s office alone, but that’s where people are going to look and it’s a good place to start
Most of us, at least most of us who visit this site, are pretty sour on the state of athletics as a whole at NC State … That doesn’t mean I’m content to be complaining all the time or that I want to be a “loveable loser” like Cubs fans - but I would like to see progress in the right direction …
And when there is positive progress I acknowledge it, and I think SFN does a pretty good job actually of giving credit where it’s due … In fact, if Lee were in office and everything started to go right for a change I’d be more than willing to be the first in line to say “Good job. Well done - I’m happy to invest in the athletics side of my University”
But, as redfred pointed out above - there is a sister instution right down the road from us in Chapel Hill who supposedly plays by the same set of rules for state run Universities … That University, within these same rules, manages to not only demand athletic excellence but penalizes those in charge of their respective athletics teams who don’t measure up to those demands for excellence … Can you or anyone else honestly say that there is the same type of structure for athletics performance an NC State University?
For some reason, it doesn’t take schools like Chapel Hill in basketball or Notre Dame in football very long to pull the trigger on a head coaching change if they feel like they need to … Why shouldn’t we hold our people to the same standards? Because we’re some ‘lesser than’ University? … If Dick Baddour had messed up the coaching change after the Doherty situation he would no longer be the AD at Chapel Hill - I don’t really think there’s any question about that …
Why then, is it ok for our AD to keep his position after the continous gaffes he makes (has made) that have been pointed out by others outside of SFN? You may say this particular soccer situation has absolutely nothing to do w/ Fowler - but, in actuallity it has EVERYTHING to do w/ Fowler b/c by almost all reasonable standards Tarantini should not still have that HC position … If nothing else, the AD is responsible for recommending whether a Head Coach should keep their position, get a raise, etc. to the BOT or whomever is above him … In my opinion, the buck stops with the AD, fair or not
It is pretty much an understood thing that as one advances up the food chain, that one takes on more responsibility — not just their own, but they take responsibility for the work of their subordinates as well. Therefore, while all victory and failure is not fully the fault of Lee Fowler. At times where action should be taken (as is the case with the NC State Men’s Soccer Team), however, his inability to act and have an influence to improve performance where he has the abilitiy to (by making a coaching change), he is entirely at fault. Responsibility is an “in appearance” as well as an “in fact” thing. As wolfpup noted above, Dick Badour did nothing to harm the men’s basketball team over in Chapel Hill, but he knew that he would be held responsbile for what happened if he did not take action. He did and it saved his job.
The two major complaints about Lee Fowler are two fold. The first is that he doesn’t seem to care. Greywolf — if you owned a store and one of your managers didn’t care about his job or about the success or failure of the store, but only about drawing a paycheck, would you keep him around? The second major complaint about Lee Fowler is his lack of accountability for those who report to him. We have several sports programs who’s performance is not even on life support they are so bad. Lee, however, is unwilling or unmotivated to make a change to improve the state of these programs. The decisions peoples choose not to make can tell us as much about them as the decisions they do make.
Just so everyone knows…we didn’t make the final 6 for Derrick Favors. I emailed the story to the site yesterday, but I haven’t seen anything mentioned about it. I just thought I’d add to the rainy day.
Auburn Fires Off Coord
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_football/story/3699982/
JimValvano,
What is your source? You may want to check your source(s) - I don’t think that is correct.
Heck Ismael, I was just getting ready to announce that! I heard it driving home from campus just now - although they are saying on sports radio here that they can’t get a confirmation out of Auburn.
The papers here carried stories about the “new/old” Franklin showing up yesterday at practice. The Auburn fans have been really upset this year, talking about firing Tubberville, rumors of how interested he was in the Arkansas job last year, ect. I got a feeling that if Tubb’s didn’t make the move now he was in trouble at the end of the year.
I think that writer had better get his facts straight regarding Auburn’s football program, he’s way off base. It wasn’t Tuberville doing the firing, all of those decisions are handed down directly from Auburn’s BOT. We all know Tommy Tuberville is powerless to fire anyone.
At least, that’s my understanding of how these things work.
Going back to the men’s soccer program…firing Tarantini should’ve been done 10 years ago. He has never really concentrated on getting the best players out of soccer-rich NC and although he was able to mine NJ/NY in the eighties, early nineties, he hasn’t been able to effectively do that in a decade. UNC and Wake Forest have dominated Tarantini in recruiting right in his back yard…in the triangle area. He’s not really involved in any of the area youth programs, for many years coached no ODP teams (Olympic Development) teams and watches as our rivals win not only conference but national championships! I don’t know what it will take to make a change but this program is stale and going nowhere. Maybe something as ridiculous as this forfeiture will open some eyes as to how bad it has gotten.
“firing Tarantini should’ve been done 10 years ago. He has never really concentrated on getting the best players out of soccer-rich NC and although he was able to mine NJ/NY in the eighties, early nineties, he hasn’t been able to effectively do that in a decade.”
I can’t verify any of ^that because I do not keep up with soccer at all. But, if it is true, and most likely it is, then I’d say that there’s another example of a coach who probably came into the job motivated and wanting to do something positive within the NCSU athletics/soccer program. But now, he’s found something he loves even more. He’s found he loves being employed by, and picking up a check from, from a university that requires NOTHING of him.
Tarantini’s been there for so long, that personally, I wouldn’t really even hold him responsible for much of anything. He has learned from other’s within the NC State’s heirarchy, and his personal failure make him just another casualty of all things that are NC State Athletics.
^Pitiful typing on my part, I was rushing to get to diner, sorry.
“Can you explain to me why Lee Fowler cannot replace George Tarantini?” No. I do suggest that institutional controls might explain why LF may not be able to replace a HC based soley on his won/lost record. Coaches who are on the post long term, may be protected somewhat in a tenure based environment.
“How would replacing a coach who has been at NC State as long as Tarantini be “firing and hiring on a whim”?” It would not be. You created context for the phrase “firing and hiring on a whim.” To fire Tarantini because of even a grose administrative error the next day or so as some here are suggesting, would be IMO be “firing and hiring on a whim” I expect procedures would have to be followed and had been followed such as verbal notice, then written notice etc. Tarantini likely has a history of offenses that could ultimately be cause for termination, but unless he was warned and given notice, his boss deciding at the late date to fire him would have the University in a very bad position.
“What institutional controls are there on the AD in terms of hiring and firing?” Are you questioning the existence of institutional controls regarding hiring and firing? If not, do the research and post them.
“In terms of “due process and justification”, then do you really think a case cannot be made to fire Tarantini based on his record and mistakes such as this one that caused a forfeit? Are there other coaches who are making this same mistake and producing similar records where universities have been unable to replace them?”
I would very much like to see a case prepared to justify the firing of George Tarantini. Perhaps one of our Associate ADs is working on it with the NCSU legal department.
Greywolf, back to the original question please.
With all that you’re saying, how do you explain the many successes of unc athletics, vs the nothingness of NCSU athletics? Huh?
The negativeness and apathy of the average statefan has increased
over the years under this group of incompetent so called leaders of our athletic department.
There are people(some my friends) who just don’t care anymore-(you know it’s bad when your own fans think your irrelevant).
SO LET’S JUST DO NOTHING –SOMETHING WE ARE VERY GOOD AT.
I just typed this response on the previous thread but I thought I might drag it over here…
The way I see it and from the looks of the of the new Dennis Leary/slicked back/suit wearing/Geigo caveman look-alike who is now the spokesperson for NC State’s fast paced, high-tech image, it seems with all of that going on, that Lee Fowler’s good ole boy image is even more out of sync than ever before.
I’m old school, I could tolerate, actually I’d personally and happily embrace, Coach Fowler’s farm boy image and his more than occasional blunders, IF it were backed up with some substance. I did LOVE IT back when NC State was the ANTI-unc, and everyone wearing RED was damned proud of it!!! because the knew better, but they still embraced their TRUE heritage as a university. Every STATE fan/student/alum wore their SUPPOSED “shit kicking”, “farm boys”, and “textile workers” image like it was a badge of honor. Back then, NC State folks didn’t feel any need look up to or emulate anything that was even remotely related to the unc way of thinking. They were comfortable enough in their own skins that unc’s snooty followers were more like bothersome little insects than something to model your entire university after. NC State didn’t even remotely feel the need to copy a liberal arts, wine and cheese factory from over on the other side of the hill in those days. The so-called “shit kickers” from NC State could, and actually did, kick the shit of the powder blue’s pretty much at will back then. And they did it quietly and soundly, in a manner that needed no verbal backup.
All of that changed though, and I for one, do sorely miss those days. That being said, I really do not hold anyone who is in Raleigh now, responsible for any of that abrupt change of fortune way back when, that was a long, looong time ago. I do though, hold them absolutely responsible for being so blatantly ignorant as to perpetuate it.
turfpack, I have wanted some little SOMETHING for sooooo long, and without ever seeing a hint of anyone else in Raleigh wanting to do anything to accomplish that little something, that it’s made me bitter towards something that I used to absolutely love.
If the sun does shine on The Wolfpack of NC State ever again, I’d like to think I can put all of this built-up bitterness aside, and just be happy and enjoy. But I don’t think it’ll ever mean the same, for me personally, again.
Oh yeah, I meant to type wolfpack”4″ever, instead of wolfpack”for”ever, earlier in the thread.
Funny how people change their names around here…whoops, I meant to say…funny how your memory can play tricks on you around here.
why was my post deleted, negativestatefansnation.com?
Hi,
I’ve heard what a great blog StateFansNation is so I thought I would check it out. I want to know what their fans think of the athletic programs of the schools I am considering. After reading what you fans think of your school’s athletic program, I don’t think NCSU is the school for me. I appreciate your saving me from this terrible mistake.
Sincerely,
FiveStar Recruit
“Soccer, as it regards to NC State, just fell off the radar screen.”
“It’s pitiful how inept we are.”
“I know a member of the team. Practices are useless”
“Are we purposely as a University trying not to be competitive in athletics?”
“Wasn’t Tarantini also the LAX coach when that team got completely out of control?”
“NCSU just sinks lower and lower under the Fowler/Oblinger watch.
We are on the edge of irrelevance.”
“The deck is stacked against anyone who strives to acheive excellence in atheletics at NCSU.”
“well over a decade of our men’s soccer program being a screaming disaster”
“how do you explain the many successes of unc athletics, vs the nothingness of NCSU athletics?”
“The negativeness and apathy of the average statefan has increased
over the years under this group of incompetent so called leaders of our athletic department.
There are people(some my friends) who just don’t care anymore-(you know it’s bad when your own fans think your irrelevant).”
“
“As I am told by opposing fans all the time, we look like idiots.”
I don’t talk to them all the time but when I talk to opposing fans, I commiserate with them if their team lost and wish them good luck next week or congratulate them if their team wins and wish them good luck next week. What I am told by opposing fans is “Thank, you.” Usually followed by some pleasantry in return.
I suppose it’s a difference in style. Just like my opinion of how our AD conducts himself with regard to his public support or vote of confidence of coaches such as Amato when things are not going well. The student athletes who play for a coach deserve the support of the AD when things are not going well. The recruiting suffers when the AD publicly chastises a coach. When fans publicly clamor for a coanches head, recruiting tends to suffer. (See TOB comment about booing.)
Personally, I think the ship took a left turn when MAF was run off by the faculty. That reflects the attitude of the Chancellor and the BOT. If Fowler had been smart or ambitious or not willing to honor his contract, he would have followed her out the door. (I can only guess how much you wish he had.)
If you think any AD at NCSU is playing on a level playing field with UNC, you are disillusioned. There is no comparison. Compare Riddick Stadium with Kenan Stadium. (for you young bucks: Riddick, situated by the railroad, seated about 10,000 and was jammed between the University Laundry and a dorm or classroom bldg. Kenan Stadium was nestled in the pines on campus and seated over 50,000.) Butch Davis comes in and the Rams club doesn’t have to shake the donors, they decide to make state of the art improvements. Is UNC’s budget, appropriations, etc., ever less than NCSU or any other school in the system. That Dumpy-Freakin stadium of ECU’s is a good example.
Try if you like to compare UNC’s standards with ours and you will think you are right because you give clever answers, but the playing field is not level. As far as Dougherty (sp) is concerned, it wasn’t his record that go him fired, it was his alleged treatment of his players and the complaints of parents. I suppose those who used the example of Badair firing Dougherty didn’t know that. I hope you don’t think Badair acted on his own, i.e., without upper level approval.
I think we can win and be a far better athletic program than we are now. I don’t think we can attract a top-flight AD with second rate pay. I for sure don’t think the AD job at NCSU is very attractive at this time. And I don’t think Fowler is going to be fired because of the record of the teams. That may change IF the measures the Chancellor has for the AD’s success changes to won/lost record.
As far as the comments that some of us think are so clever putting down our AD and athletics at NCSU intending to reflect poorly on the AD, “Let the floggings continue until morale improves.”
Next time one of our recruiting classes is rated low, consider our contribution with our put-downs and our acrid remarks directed at our University and our athletics department.
We don’t disagree in our opinion about the desirability of a more skilled and effective AD. We sure do disagree on the source of the problem and on the best way to rememdy it.
It’s all political, as everything else seems to be these days. Person A is just covering Person B’s ass to save his own. If you don’t think all of these decision makers are in bed together, take another look at it.
And as far as the comparison with UNC goes, maybe that would suffice 20 years ago or so, but clearly, today the playing field is not level between the two schools. One hall of famer retires, they go through a few slow years, then just reload with another hall of famer. Then, they are able to lure a guy like Butch Davis, a proven winner who brings instant credibility and efficiency to the program. The non-revenue sports at UNC are off the charts. The school recruits on its very name. Coaching. Recruiting. Facilities. Marketing/national and even international image/media bias. Donor base, influential alumni, etc. I’m not saying we dont have SOME of those things, but they have it all over there and they have and are flying by us at warp speed.
The really sad thing about this is that the soccer program has been so poorly organized and managed that this doesn’t surprise me. The expectation level of this sport at my alma mater has fallen to the level where there simply are no expectations.
“Next time one of our recruiting classes is rated low, consider our contribution with our put-downs and our acrid remarks directed at our University and our athletics department.”
Next time we have a low rated recruiting class, consider that our AD called the best fans in the ACC “lunatic fringe”. I would have fired one of my employees immediately for calling my customers anything remotely resembling that statement. Also, consider that he continues to like to hear himself on the radio and in interviews and to continue to put his foot in his mouth and make NCSU Athletics a laughing stock. Obviously the man and the BOT never learn!
There was a small article in the N&O today on the soccer forfeit and had this bit of information:
“An N.C. State official contacted ACC media relations officials and was given an inaccurate opinion that Lassiter could play. Christy said rules officials should have been consulted instead.”
Why in the world would you ask media relations about the elligibility of a player? That would be like me going to the HR department if my computer freezes up instead of calling IT. Just unbelievable.
Greywolf — this question is not a joke. Are you Lee Fowler?
I’m married to a UNC grad (let the hatemail begin), so I have a pretty good perspective of what goes on at both my beloved NC State and the enemy.
While you are correct that in terms of the size of the warchest, we are not able to compete with UNC at the current time (though I expect that to change over the next 10-20 years). In terms of employing an athletic director that knows how to conduct himself professionally, someone who runs an effective program, and someone who markets that program effectively, I don’t think there is any question that we can compete. Having an effective Athletic Director has NOTHING TO DO with money. I don’t think that just because our endowment is smaller than UNCs that we should settle for poor management and poor leadership.
Grey, I disagree with you completely on Mary Ann Fox. I was a student while she was at State and while she did everything she could to make student life un-fun, she cared about the performance of our athletics AND academics. I think she understood that universitys can build their brands with successful athletics (see Davidson’s enrollment after their Sweet 16 appearance the year). Building the university’s brand will help athletics, but will also help the academic side of the university by making our university a house-hold name. What I liked most about Mary Ann Fox is that she did not tolerate failure.
What bugs me most about our AD and Chancellor is that they have reverted to an old tactic that is a proven failure — when a problem occurs, throw money at it (manifested in this case by the dire need for new facilities for all of our failing programs). THIS DOES NOT WORK. What we need is a hands-on Athletic Director who is willing to put in the time to make an HONEST assessment of the current state of our athletics programs and make changes (sweeping when necessary) where they are needed. Lee Fowler has proven over his tenure that he is content with failure.
I can come to no other conclusion other than that our soccer programs (men and women) are some sort of athletic scholarship social welfare program for marginal high school soccer talent. Having a successful or competitive program seems to have gone out the window years ago…
And as for all this gobbledeguck above about hiring and firing of coaches…NC is an at-will employment state–you can fire someone for any reason, or no reason at all. Period. The protections afforded state employees do not apply to coaches, because they are hired pursuant to an employment contract. When Mr. Tarantini’s contract is up, no reason or justification is required to end his term of employment.
It appears that this thread has derailed. Back on topic, there is no excuse for a coach missing this! None whatsoever!
This breakdown in “managing” a team is unbelievable (ok, not for our soccer program). I think WV Wolf hit the nail on the head with his comment about calling the media relations person. I doubt it was George who made the call, but with a forfeitable type decision on the line he should have ensured that the proper steps were followed. I would be pissed if a volunteer school coach made this mistake, but a well paid D1 coach making this screw up? Pissed beyond words.
Should Tarantini be forced out over this alone? No. Should he be fired because this is just one more thing? Yes.
“If you think any AD at NCSU is playing on a level playing field with UNC, you are disillusioned.”
I don’t disagree w/ you or others who are making this point at all, but should this really be used as an excuse or should something be done about it?
It takes strong leaders to do something about a situation like that - is that what we have?
Also, I didn’t say anything at all about Baddour firing Doherety or any of the reasons why Doherety got removed - learn to read before you flame others (as you do with almost all of your posts) … The point was *if* the Holes don’t get Williams and the next head coach comes in and does a substandard job who’s head is going to roll? Erskine Bowels? The entire BOT? No - Dick freaking Baddour b/c he, as AD, is the focal point of athletics at that University whether he has authority to fire, hire, etc, or not … You make it seem as if the AD has 0 responsibility - why even have the position? The way you’re talking we might as well bring back Todd Turner to run things - it wouldn’t hurt, right?
To another end, you continue to take personal shots and belittle people who post on here - are you 12? I’m not sure why this is allowed to continue. I can disagree with people without intimating that they are stupid or otherwise worthless - yet this seems to be your entire reason for logging on and posting here. I think I can count on one hand the number of posts you have made that aren’t attacking another user on here. I can get personal too, but there’s really no need to over the internet. What are you trying to prove and who are you trying to prove it to?
“You make it seem as if the AD has 0 responsibility - why even have the position?”
Didn’t Vandy do something like this very recently? And they appear to be pretty successful for a private school in the SEC. My position is, if like Greywolf hints at, the AD has little responsibility for and virtually no control over the performance of his employees - eliminate the position. Then take the salary and spread it around to the coaches. This would have to be a far superior method that what is currently going on.
“Why in the world would you ask media relations about the elligibility of a player?”
Because a rep of the media relations department keeps the official score.
^Todd Turner was at Vandy as well (directly after leaving NCSU), and under his leadership the athletics dept. was “restructured” into something like the “Office of Student Atheletics and Recreation” - or something like that … His position was eliminated as Vandy essentially combined their Intramurals and Athletics Dept.s … I’m unsure if Vandy has since reorganized their athletics dept. or had an AD since, but I don’t think they have
Turner “left” Vandy and went to Washington, where he was subsequently forced out a few years later … In fact, the firetoddturner com website is still up that was started by some UW fans
That’s an awful lot of activity for someone who holds a position with little responsibility and no control over anything
An objective look at the stats - compiled from the soccer media guide:
Let’s start with his record over the last 10 years, which will give us an accurate indication of his success in recent history:
Total Games Played: 186
Wins: 66
Losses: 105
Ties: 15
In summary, he earns a victory in 35.5% of his games, the pack lost 56.5% of the matches & sneaks by w/ a tie in 8% of the games.
Record against ACC teams in the last 10 years -
Total ACC Games Played in the last 10 Years: 67
Wins: 11
Losses: 50
Ties: 6
In summary, he earns a victory in 16% of ACC matches, losses 74.5% of those games, and has tied 9% of ACC games over the last 10 years.
Tarantini’s Career Record:
Total Games Played (1986-2008): 414
Wins: 204 (49%)
Losses: 174 (42%)
Ties: 36 (9%)
Most soccer aficionados would recognize that many regular season games are played against weaker opponents, so lets take a look at how Tarantini fared against ACC competition:
Total ACC Games Played: 139
Wins: 42 (30%)
Losses: 82 (59%)
Ties: 15 (10%)
My personal thoughts:
It’s hard to imagine how the NCSU athletic department could keep a coach that has not won more than half of his games over the last 21 years. On top of that, they have a coach that has lost nearly 60% of games against his own conference over his career with the Wolfpack. Additionally, and likely more telling, the current athletic department continues to employ Tarantini when he has lost nearly 60% of his games in the last ten years & has lost almost 75% of the games he’s played against ACC opponents.
But ovalhead, you don’t understand, haven’t you been listening to the conversation? NC State, excuse me, the BOT, screens and hires people to fill certain positions in those folks chosen fields of employment. But after they’re chosen and have been picking up their checks courteousy of NC State University for awhile, then at that time there is apparently no longer any requirement whatsoever for those same employees to be even halfway competent in those chosen fields. If you’re following the conversation, he’s telling you that those administrators don’t even have any power to affect the quality of their own job places anyway. He’s also saying that the ATHLETICS DIRECTOR doesn’t really have anything to do with ATHLETICS, but rather his job is more involved with policing academics and keeping things squeaky clean.
So, I guess if you really want to know about athletics, and who is ultimately responsible for all the different sports programs at NC State, then you’re best bet is probably to ask an NCSU calculus professor, because if that’s the way it works, then that calculus professor sure as hell doesn’t have anything to do with math.
Greywolf says,
“Personally, I think the ship took a left turn when MAF was run off by the faculty.”
Then Scooter says,
“Grey, I disagree with you completely on Mary Ann Fox. I was a student while she was at State and while she did everything she could to make student life un-fun, she cared about the performance of our athletics AND academics.”
Scooter, could you tell me how you are disagreeing with me? This is prototypical of SFN comments. The commenter has preconceived opinion on a subject and misrepresents the opinion of the person he is arguing with.
For those of you who are talking at me with hate for the AD and accusing me of supporting and defending him, read this from my post above: “We don’t disagree in our opinion about the desirability of a more skilled and effective AD. We sure do disagree on the source of the problem and on the best way to rememdy it.”
I also think the PUBLIC expressions of what a lousy athletics you think we have and how irrelevent NCSU is in athletics, plays right in the hands of rival recruiters and is horrible for student athletes considering NCSU to read. We can’t blame our words on the AD.
How about State having winning fricking athletic programs.
THAT HAS A HELL OF ALOT OF BEARING ON WHAT RECUITS,THE MEDIA AND FANS THINK OF THE PROGRAM. SOME OF THESE FAN PAY ALOT OF MONEY TO ATTEND THESE EVENTS-THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY EXPECT OF THE ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT.
Sometimes, the truth hurts and living in denial doesn’t help. As the politicians are fond of saying, you can’t put lipstick on a pig.
@Grey — I misread your Mary Ann Fox comment. We are in agreement that she should have stayed.
Regarding The Great AD Debate, I think the fans can be behind the teams, as we are every Saturday afternoon or Thursday night, and against the AD. Recruits see the fans in the seats. Recruits see the passion of the fan base. What they don’t see are winning teams across the board at NC State (cross country excepted). If certain areas are flagging, I think you can call some of them isolated incidents. When the entire program appears to be in laying dead in a drainage ditch, you have to start looking upwards. The next responsible person is Lee Fowler who has every authority to mend fences by coaching change or other avenues. He has allowed these programs to falter. At the same time he demands more money from the fans, takes an inordinate amount of vacation, and is one phone call to 850 The Buzz away from making fools of us every week of the year. His conduct is unprofessional and I think HE MUST GO.
Now I am done with this thread because the crashing stock market has made me depressed.
Greywolf4ever, all I can say is that I have my hopes set higher than the level of mediocrity that this NC State administration has shown to be competent of, and totally contented with. Also, in all of your fretting about what a young kid/recruit may think after reading a post on SFN, I don’t see where you take into account what that kid may need or want out of his/her ONE college career. What I’m taking from your posts here, is that we all know and accept the fact that there dire need for change at NC State, but we should just keep it hush hush, in hopes that those kids will sign on and somehow change all of this mess for us.
Good luck with that.
Meanwhile, we will continue to watch as our coaches struggle to bring in the necessary talent, then if they are lucky to persuade these kids to sign on in the first place, we can then cross our fingers in hopes that by some miracle they’ll want to stick around for more than one season.
I’m talking about a fundamental and absolute change in attitudes as they relate to ALL athletics at NCSU. There has to be a totally different climate and a passion for athletics at the very top of the foodchain, where a commitment to excellence in athletics is openly discussed and pursued, rather than seemingly threatening to anyone who holds high office in West Raleigh. Until there are changes made along those lines, then we are all just hoping upon hope, and forever pissing into the wind.
You can have all the facilities in the world, great fans, and plenty of money, but…
I think we all should be well aware of that fact by now.
NC State has got to stop to being the goody two shoes, the boy scouts, and the whipping boy of the ACC, and regardless of the pecking order that’s been established and is NOW accepted as if that’s the way it’s SUPPOSED to be, and AS IF it has ALWAYS been that way. It is simply NOT TRUE and somebody needs to develop a bad case of the chip on the shoulder. They should promote that feeling from within, and in every one of the offices of administration in West Raleigh. NC State is at it’s best when it sets itself apart, not when it becomes overly obsessed with fitting someone else’s mold.
That’s IT, I’m done.
Redfred-very good points-I agree totally
Check list— 1st= coach- done
2nd= facilities- done
3rd= recuits- being done
4th= replace A.D,-should be done
5th= stop thinking were the blue’s stepsister- will be done
6th= cut loose crappy coaches-see#4
7th=climb back to the top-see#1,2,3,4,5,6-has to be done