Dear Heather Dinich,
Good for you, having been to all of the ACC stadiums – it’s something I can’t say for myself. And kudos to ESPN for hiring an Indiana graduate and a Maryland resident to write a regular blog about the ACC.
I’ll be honest here, Heather. I’m provincially prejudiced and I don’t intend to change that about myself. I’m a born and bred North Carolina boy and times have been few when I cared what an outsider thinks about Carter-Finley, but your rankings lack credibility and beg for a response. I’ve been to Lane, Memorial, Bobby Dodd, Groves, Wallace Wade, and Kenan stadiums. And when I say I’ve been there, I’ve been there on days where actual games have been played and not just to look at all the pretty columns.
My problem with your rankings for “toughest stadium” in the ACC isn’t that you are necessarily wrong – I actually agree with your top three, in no specific order – but rather that you failed to deliver any compelling argument for actual “toughness.” I’m just a simple mountain boy that somehow learned to read and write and managed to get an engineering degree along the way, but in my experience, words like “picturesque,” “gorgeous,” and “appreciative” aren’t generally utilized to draw a correlation to toughness. Erin Andrews is gorgeous; John Wayne was tough. See the difference?
Honest, it was a hack job, a little disconcerting after your fine Ernie Myers column, and a seasoned college football fan such as you should have done much better. For instance:
Lane stadium is tough because it “sells out?” C’mon, now. How about this instead: Blacksburg is like Virginia’s version of Boone, nestled atop the Blue Ridge Mountains, and on fall afternoons, orange and burgundy contrasts against the sprawling green fields enveloping Lane Stadium, making for an impressive approach among the mass of Hokies fans filing through the gates. Once inside, the stands are high, steep, and tight, especially in the end zones, and the noise punctures and resonates without end, seemingly unable to escape the semi-bowl. The main problem with Lane Stadium isn’t that the walk from the concourse to your seat at the top of the stands will leave you completely winded, but that the fans are just too durned friendly. I was there when we beat them at the last second in 2004, and we were heartily welcomed by nearly everyone we passed, mingled and tailgated with new friends before the game, and were congratulated on the victory and the memorable defensive performance afterwards; by all regards, they were gracious to finally be in the ACC and wanted to be liked by the rest of us. They were loud, sure, but they were largely a class act.
Death Valley has “The Rock [and] the Hill?” In this case, yes you do, indeed, need to say more. You could start with how the maze outside Death Valley is a giant sea of orange that dwarfs even off-campus sprawling areas like, say, the fairgrounds and lots surrounding Carter-Finley. Or how when you’re maneuvering through campus from where you parked, in some farm field down in Pickens County between a graveyard and a silo, everyone you ask “Which way to the stadium?” tells you something different, so you wander around aimlessly trying to find the increasing commotion. And then, once inside, you don’t see the hill, but rather a narrow, steep strip of green parted by a sea of orange t-shirts and blue jeans. What you’ve also never seen on TV is the team loading up onto buses for the short drive to the Hill so they can rub Howard’s Rock and then run down the Hill while 80,000 fans rejoice with pompoms; see, the old field house was under the opposite end zone stands, not on top of that Hill. You also could have added, to your sterling analysis, how the band plays between every play, constantly building up to the annoying but catchy Tiger Rag, which ends with the deafening C-L-E-M-S-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-N being belted out by floppy-haired kids in tiger paw ties and roughnecks in purple overalls alike. Clemson fans – much like their far superior cousins in Raleigh – like to be interactive and let visiting fans know of their presence, liquor-breath and all. The best way to silence the Death Valley crowd is a 38-6 shellacking on the Thursday night ESPN game. Just don’t ask for directions back to the graveyard afterwards.
Bobby Dodd is old and it’s “unique” because it’s “in the heart of Atlanta?” I almost fell asleep at Bobby Dodd in 2003. I’m dead serious. My neighbors have complained to me during State basketball games for making more noise than the Bobby Dodd crowd. What exactly about the fans makes it unique? Georgia Tech fans epitomize the typical Atlanta fan: quietly disengaged. I remember a 60-degree, sunny noon game at about 75% capacity and the only time that stadium got loud was between the third and fourth quarters when the band played the Budweiser Song and finally the students made a pseudo-attempt at unified noise with “When you say Budweiser, you’ve said it all!” Then promptly left. You could have mentioned that, at least, speaking to its uniqueness.
Groves is also “unique” and obviously small, and its fans are “faithful and appreciative?” Here in the South, we call that “charming,” and it’s often used when you can’t find anything good to say otherwise. I’ve been to Groves many times, actually (although I’ve sworn, after two different debacles in 1999 and 2003, to never go back). In fact, I’ve seen as many Appalachian State games there as State games, and the only distinct characteristic I can draw to memory, other than a lot of empty seats and a lot of visiting fans, is that before our game there in 2001, the P.A. announcer reached out, longingly, for all “Deac Freaks” still in the parking lot to come in and support their Demon Deacons – right before the first quarter ended.
Ah, Kenan; “just the right size” and has “picturesque pine trees?” Contrary to popular myth, pine trees aren’t exclusive to Chapel Hill; in fact, North Carolina is often referred to as the Pine State (which I much prefer, and if ever elected governor, will pass an executive directive to replace “Tar Heel State” with “Pine State”). I’ve been to Kenan twice, and on both occasions I spent most of my time trying to explain to the fine folks around me why I stand up during an exciting play, particularly on a third-and-long or a touchdown; also, that I’m not a farmer. The verbal abuse was just horrible, and if those mean folks had returned to their seats after halftime I don’t know what would have happened. I can only imagine how anyone can go into such a beautiful place and win, especially with Butch Davis’ office looming forlornly over them as they break the huddle. Kenan at #4 is ridiculous on all accounts; you’ll be hard-pressed to find even a handful of Carolina fans that would consider Kenan a tough atmosphere.
You actually summarized Wallace Wade quite succinctly, although I like to denigrate it further by calling it Cameron Outdoor Stadium.
Carter-Finley’s “facilities are impressive but it lacks tradition?” What does that even mean? Since my freshman year in 1997, I’ve missed a mere handful of games at Carter-Finley, so I’m what you call an expert. I don’t labor under the impression that it is the ACC’s toughest and I certainly won’t argue it’s one of the nation’s toughest by any stretch; it’s smaller than Doak Campbell, Death Valley, Lane, Scott, and even Kenan, but to chalk up Carter-Finley to simply having “impressive” facilities is flat irresponsible.
Ask Tom O’Brien, who spoke to just how impressed he was by the atmosphere after a Saturday night loss here with Boston College in 2006, or Jerry Moore, who publicly stated that Carter-Finley was a tougher place to play than Michigan Stadium.
You could have touched on the intensity of the State fan base, how it’s unquestionably passionate and intimidating in its own right, with its well-known tendency for abrasive behavior towards certain opposing fans. Or how the design of the stadium coupled with the recent renovations enclosing both end zones has created a sense of claustrophobia for opposing teams, which literally have fans just a few feet behind them – actively engaged in friendly banter. Or how no State fan wants to get caught sitting on any third down and feels a certain shame for not being hoarse on the walk out.
But you seem to be focused on aesthetics and atmosphere, so let’s touch on one of those perfect late October or early November afternoon games, where that autumn sun traces low across the Southern sky, quickly burning off the morning chill as the tailgating lots fill up and parking becomes more difficult as drivers have to maneuver between pig cookers, grills, canopies, corn hole boards, flying footballs and kids chasing after each other. You could have talked about how by mid-afternoon, the aroma of pork and vinegar saturates the air as old friends catch up and complain about how they’ve eaten – and drunken – far too much. As the sun starts to slip behind the tall “picturesque” pines – apparently on loan from the altruistic town of Chapel Hill – surrounding arguably the nation’s most impressive college football facility (according to Bill Cowher), and that crisp autumn air sets in, a Sea of Red, nearly 60,000 strong, merges en masse through too few entry gates, awaiting eagerly for the team to charge onto the field and that first opportunity to explode in unison and declare proudly, exactly where Carolina can go.
Look, all I’m saying here, Heather, is the evidence suggests you might be misguided on what most knowledgeable college football fans consider “tough.”
But more importantly, since you work for ESPN, I was hoping you’d put me in touch with Erin Andrews. She might remember me; I had my picture taken with her when Gameday was at Carter-Finley in 2004. Tell her I have an extra season ticket if she wants it.
Sincerely,
LRM
AMEN!
While I agree with everything you say… please proof your stuff! It’s pretty embarassing to write a piece to condemn a jounalist when your writing is confusing because of tense issues, grammar issues, etc.
LRM Note: While I’m not what you call a “jounalist” (like the great Robert Earl Keen, I prefer to call myself a story-teller), I always want to use correct tense and grammar, so I’ll try to do better next time!
“I can only imagine how anyone can go into such a beautiful place and win, especially with Butch Davis’ office looming forlornly over them as they break the huddle.”
Good sentence, but I had to read it twice because “I can only image how” should be “I can’t even imagine how”
There’s a few times where language could’ve been clearer. Don’t get me wrong, great response to the cheerleader who thinks she knows, but a few places could be patched up.
I ddn’t hvae any torulbe uerdntsdannig aynhtnig you worte. Gerat lteter! As lnog as you hvae the fsirt and lsat ltteer rghit msot of us wtih smilpe mnids can fgirue out the maening.
GREAT piece, regardless of what tobaccofreakshow thinks.
Dont we all make mistakes?
I think LRM’s is more forgivable than Ms. Dinich’s.
Its a shame that this pathatic excuse for an article(or was it a blog she wrote? either way… its not even BLOG worthy!) can make it past ESPN. Who’s Now? NOT ESPN.
Mmmmmm, Erin Andrews.
Well done. If the original author had a third as much personal experience with those stadiums as you have, she might have made a better list.
I appriciate the biased opinion you have expressed and had no trouble understanding it. This is almost an instant medium and therefore inherently subject to slight errors. None of us want to feel like this stuff is going to be graded. I especially liked the part about pine trees not being exclusive to chapel hole. Other than Carter Finley I have only been to Groves and sold peanuts there at wake games as a kid. It would be half empty and so quiet you could carry on a conversation with ease. My chrurch felt like it was a nice youth activity to go to games at Groves. If it is that church friendly it aint a tough atmosphere.
LRM Note: Funny you mention that about Groves, wish I had thought of that. I remember now that growing up, Groves always had Baptist Men’s Day on the Wake/Duke game.
A couple of her less than accurate statements:
Carter-Finley “lacks tradition” - well maybe but it was built in 1966 I believe Groves was built in 1967 and Lane was completed in 1968.
With the “faithful and appreciative” fans at Groves it seems strange that the many State games (and some UNC) I have seen there appeared to have as many or more of the opponent’s fans as Wake’s.
If you are talking basketball than put the Dean Dome up high on the list, but Kenan? I showed this to a recent UNC grad that works for me and he laughed like hell. He rarely misses a “game” and rarely sees one. He said most people just go in for the 2nd quarter and leave at halftime for a party. He also said when he and his friends go to C-F to watch a Carolina game they don’t wear blue and they don’t say shit. Too dangerous and crazy there in his opinion.
And Scott Stadium in Virginia, while pretty, holds 61,000 not 51,000.
What is utterly, inexcusably pathetic is she has been to all of the stadia (or claims as much). Now, someone who writes about ACC football (and is PAID!) should be able to put together a competent list based on experiences, and some basic knowledge (knowing what game you’re actually watching, if it’s a below average, average, or above crowd; the type of opponent, etc.).
I’ve been to 3 whole college football games. The 47-45 Duke/State game when I was young, NC State/Maryland my freshman year, and Wisconsin/UNLV. Still, if I ranked “toughness” of ACC stadia, I’d get a list similar to SFN and other competent analysis- JUST FROM WATCHING BLOODY TV!
And LRM- this is good stuff!
I stopped watching/reading anything (except watching actual games) on ESPN long ago - I wonder why!
Wonder if Billy Packer needs a job?
Thanks LRM, good read.
ESPN suffers from good leadership just as our state and nation. Surely, someone high up at ESPN would go ballistic over this degree of incompetence. However, in this day and age, I am not surprised by anything.
This reporterette has taken Rush’s sccurate portrayal of the “Drive-by” Media to a new level. I think we could say she is part of the “Fly-by” media. It is clear she didn’t get down to drive -by level in her 3ird grade analysis.
I don’t think Heather is smarter than a 5th grader, I’d put her at 3rd grade level.
What’s worse is people read this stuff. Potential recruits read this stuff. And if this type of hatchet job costs us one single recruit, it should cost her her job- plain and simple.
Think I’ve hammered home how disgusted I am by her “analysis” yet? I could go on, but there’s a home run derby to watch.
Looks like someone had a change of heart on their list
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/acc/0-1-45/The-fans-speak–ACC-stadium-rankings-II.html?post=true
^Changed the title of the list too…
We live in a time of bimboization of sports.
Does someone in marketing decidethe entertainment section is not large enough, and they want more bimbos to read the sports section?
Intimate setting? Come on! I haven’t tried to be intimate at a football game in years! Maybe it’s a “Carolina thing”? Wonder if the Carolina football players that got beat up by the ‘ho’s were in to intimacy?
Ho Ho Ho! nice one highstick!
I’ve seen ball in a lot of places - C-F, Keenan, Wade, Groves in the ACC, App (of course, didn’t miss a game for 4 yrs) and then a number of places out of conference. C-F, is clearly the best of the conference in the state, hands down. App, however, does rock. When you drive into town, you can hear the drums echoing through the valley - all good stuff. Not to mention, we got away with lining shot glasses up on the wall during pre-game. Oh man, where are the drunks of yesteryear? the best part about App playing Wake, was all these drunken’ Happy Appy’s invading, and taking over the place! Oh, the Baptists were never happy about us. Guess that’s why we are off their schedule.
LRM Note: I think it had more to do with the fact that App. was beating Wake regularly.
Out of conference/state? Wow - Nebraska, great atmosphere. (1 game) Ole Miss (9 yrs - it was grad school) so wonderful, so many HOT women, such awful teams. Texas Tech - ever seen a marching band where over 70 members get red shirted? Talk about loud! But they lost to North Texas the first game, and my wife would not go back. Notre Dame (1 game) - great fans. I was not impressed by the pre-game. but man where they nice & polite. Arizona? Awful - but it is on campus, and the bars were only about 6 blocks away.
the point is well made - atmosphere doesn’t translate to hard place to play. I bet Riddick was a hard place to play - what with all of 2,500 folks there, the train blasting by, the locker rooms leaking. I don’t know that it helped the Red Terrors much on the field. Of course those couple years we wore pink and brown probably didn’t help either.
Fair enough LRM.
Thanks so much for writing this. I have been ripping on Dinich since she first posted an entry on the 4 letter.com giving one liner blurbs about each teams future. At that point she spoke about Ant Hill and T Baker’s injuries, how they would be back for Spring practice, and all prospects look good.
A little hw would have led her to TOB’s comments expecting neither to be back in during spring practice, published before her comments. Since then, she has had some asinine coverage on .com that makes you wonder what kind of folks they have working for them.
She was a Terp beat writer, trying to make her mark I suppose, but every post, or entry, or whatever you call it is elementary at best. Here is an example:
GT: Expect them to gain more grounds on the yard as they switch to a hybrid triple option.
FSU: Look for them to return to the glory years of the 90’s.
CU: They plan to run the ball.
Mary: I see them throwing the ball to Bey, a lot.
WFU: Well though out dink and dunk.
etc. etc. etc., please, give me a media guide to quote. Clearly she sucks, should not have a job at this level, and is a product of, dare I say it, diversification of the workforce.
So Wallace Wade gets put on the bottom for being “quaint” and “Not exactly the atmosphere you’re looking for when you want some smashmouth football.” But Kenan gets 6th for being “intimate”? Aren’t they basically the same thing?
The worst thing about talking heads is that there is no consistency. From Billy Packer to a blog writer for ESPN. Basically they have to either fill air time or press and so they just spew nonsense constantly. So I guess if there is any consistency in the talking heads its that they are consistently writing or saying jibberish. I just find myself laughing at the assenine comments made daily on air.
You have to give credit where credit is due. She moved us from 11th to 4th. I still think she’s kind of guessing on some of these, but I think this list is closer than her last one….and at least she listened instead of bunkering up and refusing to admit things like other writers have done. Since she’s shown she’s at least open-minded, I’ll cut her some slack.
Yep, I think she got the picture and I bet she will keep a stronger eye on the Pack this year….(even if she thinks we aren’t going to do much). I’m glad she made the adjustments.
Great piece here….I too got a little lost after reading Erin Andrews….but after I woke up from my daydream I enjoyed the rest of the article.
Here would be my ranking for “most intimidating places” to play:
1)Lane Stadium - Loudest stadium I’ve ever been to. It’s probably the acoustics in the place, but it also helps that they don’t have a whole lot of old timers either.
2) Death Valley - Cheesy tiger roar is pretty cool, as is the Rock. While it has nothing to do w/ intimidation, the Esso Club is a must stop for any college football fan. This place can be electric during night games but the last 20 years probably don’t compare to the Danny Ford years.
3)Doak Campbell - Great fans, loud, and usually filled up. No better place to be on a November night than a game that means something here.
4) Carter-Finley - I’m biased. Wolfpack fans are figuring out they can be a force. The entire place is red - and when it’s a night game - the place absolutely rocks. We’ve still got to do a better job getting “up” for nooners, but aside from VaTech, no school in the ACC has changed more in its fervor for football Saturday. (note: FSU and GaTech don’t qualify.)
5) Groves Stadium - It’s not the fans, but the borderline cheating loudspeaker. When the opposing team is on offense, loudspeakers blare while they are in the huddle. Their fans are getting better - and they will be playing in front of a sold stadium for the 2nd straight year.
6) Kenan - This place can get loud. However, they’ve allowed visiting “armies” of NC State and USC fans to take over. The fans are reactive…they get loud when things are going well. If they aren’t - the fans talk about basketball.
7) GaTech - How do you screw up a good thing? Mess up the synergy of your stadium by building a monstrous addition that doesn’t fit w/ the “classic” feel of your stadium. If this was needed, it would be one thing, but there were always seats available in GaTech w/ the exception of when they played UGa and probably Clemson. I went to the old stadium for a 3:30 game (or was it 2:30) in 2001. The atmosphere, while fun, wasn’t exactly electric. I can’t imagine this addition added anything.
8)BC - The stadium itself isn’t bad. It’s actually perfect for a smaller school w/out a big time progam. It’s 2 levels all the way around. It’s aluminum/steel, so fans should be able to stomp and make lots of noise. Of course, when 17K show up to a November game when the team is having a solid season…Still, there’s actually hope here. The students do a great job. But they’ll always play 4th fiddle in Beantown to the Bosox, Celtics, Patriots and Bruins….whoops, that’s 5th fiddle.
9) Wallace Wade - Did you know that they once played the Rose Bowl here? Did you know that I accidentally walked into this stadium for free when we played Duke in the early 90s? Did I have trouble finding a seat? nope.
LRM,
You spoke for us all with your piece. As I read it for the first time I kept saying “damned right” and “hell yes” in response.
If this is not moved into the All Time Best Entries on this site it will be a shame.
Great piece LRM, I enjoyed every word.
Off-topic:
Not normally one to frequent the Char-Observer, Rick Bonnell had a good piece this morning about JJ in the NBA Summer league (along with a great quote by JJ about Lowe’s positive influence).
http://www.charlotte.com/sports_breaking/story/713264.html
Have to agree w/ choppack here - at least Ms. Dinich is willing to listen to her audience, have an open mind about things, and able to admit some potential errors …
Her attitude is far different than most in the MSM, who will defend their position to the death no matter how obviously wrong it is … All this b/c it’s in print and their egos won’t let them admit that they could have actually been, gasp, wrong
For this alone I applaud her and I, like chop, am willing to cut her some slack …
Oh, and fine piece LRM … well done
“Ms. Dinich is willing to listen to her audience, have an open mind about things, and able to admit some potential errors …”
I guess I’m too hard-core. I give zero credit until I see that progress has actually been made. It’s easy to “correct” a blunder once eleventy-billion people have pointed it out. Dinich gets credit if she demonstrates a future ability to use information, do research and not screw the pooch THE FIRST TIME. There hasn’t been much evidence of that in her work; rather, there is evidence of laziness, bias and lack of knowledge.
When you are so wrong it is easy to change a position. However it seems that Carter Stadium moved from 11 to 4 because of the baseball facility and the fan’s ability to email. If the Pack plants some new pines there will be no stopping them.
Dr BP - You are simply expecting expertise and analytical research where it won’t exist. Like so many of those who graduate from our fine educational institutions (likely w/ a humanities degree) - she really hasn’t had to couple opinion w/ analysis.
Her job is probably to do some research on the teams she is covering for that game, show up on time - and ask those 2 or 3 questions (which probably don’t add value overall) and get out of the way. When ESPN told her or she asked to do the blog - I’m sure they didn’t say, “We expect intense analysis to bullet-proof your statements.”
At least she responds to the “greasy wheel.” Gregg Doyle or Adam Gold and others would just pitch their fort and disagree.
My guess is she got a raise for driving hits two different times on the same topic.
LRM, great piece, but I think that tobaccordshow may be onto something, only it’s not about “proofing” your stuff, but about “proving” your stuff. You need to post the picture that you had taken with Erin Andrews back in ‘04, or any other picture of her for that matter.
EverettBeez, I must agree with you about App. I played at Furman in the early 80s; a guy named Sheridan was coaching the Paladins back then. We opened at Kennan in my freshman year, I don’t remember much about that game except that we lost and the sound of the crickets in the pines. We opened at “the Swamp” in Gainesville my sophomore year and I can honestly say that Boone was a more intimidating place to have to play. Maybe it was the rivalry or maybe it was the shower of beer bottles, but it was a tough place to play.
It was actually Jill Arrington at Gameday at C-F, not Erin Andrews.
And at some point Jill Arrington apparently disappeared from the face of the planet never to be seen again.
LRM Note: WV Wolf, you’re a confused, but not entirely incorrect. Erin Andrews was a part of the Gameday crew back then as a crowd reporter; Jill Arrington was then the sideline reporter for ESPN’s Saturday night game and participated as part of the Saturday morning show alongside Rocket (on the field segment). Both ladies were there that Saturday, but only Erin was apart of the Gameday crew that Friday evening. Trust me, she was there.
wufpaxno1 - I was at App in the early 80s, so I probably saw you play. Furman was and is a big game for us. Of course Marshall was enemy #1 back then, before they made the disastrous move up. As for beer bottles reigning down - easy now, we were all drinking liquor! Football saturdays mean brown liquor - easier to get in (in zip lock baggies) and easier to mix! Thanks for the vote! They are rebuilding much of that stadium as we speak! 20 years of top notch programs and they finally up grade the facility. Hmmmm -
My bad LRM. I only saw Jill out there on Saturday morning.
^Erin A. was definitely there on that Friday evening … I will never forget thinking “Wow, she looks even better right here in front of me!”
… Your point is well-taken, Dr. BP - but we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one
… I’d much rather hear from a journalist who has the um, courage, to admit mistakes in print or over the air … That said, yes - it behooves one to try and get it right the first time
Didn’t Furman beat State in the 80’s?
tcthdi-tgsf-twhwtnc, yes, but that was after my days there, my somewhat unmemorable career came to a screeching halt halfway through my sophomore year following an injury and I transferred to State in ‘82. (Perfect timing for a Basketball fan.) I remember sitting in a Biology class and seeing the guy seated in front of me flipping through my old Furman play book, not just a Furman play book, but my old Furman play book, complete with my name and everything. Turns out he was a tight end and getting ready for the upcoming game, didn’t do him much good, Furman won 34-30 in 1984 and 42-20 in 1985. State got wise and hired Sheridan away from Furman the following year and the UNC butt kicking’s began in earnest.
Hmmm. proof read my ass. As a sometime writer and story teller (when on) I’ve got to to tell ya LRM, that I felt like giving up the key board after gliding through your prose.